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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-23-2013, 05:28 PM
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Will you relax? Sergei Fedorov was not better than Wayne Gretzky. Dixi.
Than stop throwing Selkes, linemates and sabremetrics at me

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03-23-2013, 05:35 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
taken over every thread
Fedorov talke has shown up in *gasp* the 8-10 or so FEDOROV threads that are around. Shocking, I know. Maybe you would prefer more Steve Kasper talk?

MOD

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
He also played with yzerman for the whole month of october 1993
That's interesting, given that Yzerman only played about half of the Wings' games in October before he went out with a herniated disc due to a hit by Thomas Steen (the injury is attributed to years of contact, such as cross checks in the back, etc.); an injury which put him out for 26 games. I suppose Yzerman is one of the best to ever play, perhaps he was simply having such a great season that he was scoring/assisting from the press box while on LTIR?

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and yzerman assisted on a good chunk of his points in feb-march. So im guessing november and december are the two months yzerman sat out, which helped pad fedorov's stats with coffey-cicarelli-lidstrom-kozlov-primeau.
This is accurate. Yzerman returned at the end of December, playing on Primeau's LW because he wasn't at 100% and couldn't take faceoffs easily or skate as well as he normally could (he later moved back to center after more recovery time). The injury clearly changed his playing style in that it affected his shot, making him more of a playmaker; this is noticeable in his stats from the fact that he went 24-58-82 in 58 games, which was his worst GPG since 86-87 and his second-best APG of his career. The transformation is what helped Ray Sheppard turn into a 50-goal man.

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
In 1995, yzerman scored or assisted on 10 out of the 50 points fedorov put up.
That doesn't mean they played together often. Kariya and Selanne shared 17 points in 1997-98, which is 19.8% of Selanne's production. Fedorov and Yzerman shared 10 points, which is 20% of Fedorov's production. Selanne/Kariya were allowed to roam free offensively. Yzerman and Fedorov were expected to play strong defensively and did so; Fedorov finished fourth in Selke voting.

And also notable? Had each player played the full season schedule at their PPG pace (with no other players changing total points), their finishes would have been as such:

Selanne: 58 (1st)-47 (9th)-107 (1st)
Fedorov: 23(14th)-34(13th)-57(8th)
Fedorov (82GP): 39-59-98

Yes, Fedorov did play time with Coffey, who scored about a billion points that season. Coffey also played a ridiculous ratio of PP to ES minutes, and an insane amount of time.

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In 2003, shanahan-hull-lidstrom fed him the whole year. He switches teams the next year and his production tanks.
I think you have it backwards. Fedorov dropped in scoring the next season when he had weak support; but Hull dropped 8 points despite still having Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Shanahan, Lidstrom. Shanahan dropped fifteen points. It wasn't Hull/Shanahan carrying Fedorov's numbers, it was the reverse. Fedorov was put out there and basically told to go score, and worry about defense as #2 (Lewis being his first coach since Murray to have this priority) and he and anyone with him went out and posted killer numbers. He wasn't the only Wings center doing it, either; Datsyuk had 51 in 64.

People say Fedorov was a terrible player for coaching... I don't understand that from what I saw. He went out and did everything his coaches asked of him. Play the wing? Ok. Play on D? Ok. Focus primarily on defense and shut the other team down? No problem. Go out and simply outscore them? You got it.

Never once was he criticized for lack of effort or "not showing up" until his holdout in 1997. Not once. Had that never happened, he'd be considered the same kind of leader and hard worker Draper is. There's a reason he had an A put on his chest; you don't get those in Detroit just by being a good player.


Last edited by Fugu: 03-23-2013 at 09:07 PM. Reason: qdp
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Old
03-23-2013, 05:36 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Than stop throwing Selkes, linemates and sabremetrics at me
Saying Fedorov was better than Selanne is not the same as saying he was better than Gretzky.

...unless you think Selanne was better than Gretzky?

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03-23-2013, 06:08 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
People say Fedorov was a terrible player for coaching... I don't understand that from what I saw. He went out and did everything his coaches asked of him. Play the wing? Ok. Play on D? Ok. Focus primarily on defense and shut the other team down? No problem. Go out and simply outscore them? You got it.

Never once was he criticized for lack of effort or "not showing up" until his holdout in 1997. Not once. Had that never happened, he'd be considered the same kind of leader and hard worker Draper is. There's a reason he had an A put on his chest; you don't get those in Detroit just by being a good player.
I edited out the rest, but just because I particularly liked this part. Excellent post.

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03-23-2013, 06:36 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov talke has shown up in *gasp* the 8-10 or so FEDOROV threads that are around. Shocking, I know. Maybe you would prefer more Steve Kasper talk?





Why do you feel the need to surf the boards to flame and troll those who disagree with your opinion? As I recall, that is against the board rules.



That's interesting, given that Yzerman only played about half of the Wings' games in October before he went out with a herniated disc due to a hit by Thomas Steen (the injury is attributed to years of contact, such as cross checks in the back, etc.); an injury which put him out for 26 games. I suppose Yzerman is one of the best to ever play, perhaps he was simply having such a great season that he was scoring/assisting from the press box while on LTIR?



This is accurate. Yzerman returned at the end of December, playing on Primeau's LW because he wasn't at 100% and couldn't take faceoffs easily or skate as well as he normally could (he later moved back to center after more recovery time). The injury clearly changed his playing style in that it affected his shot, making him more of a playmaker; this is noticeable in his stats from the fact that he went 24-58-82 in 58 games, which was his worst GPG since 86-87 and his second-best APG of his career. The transformation is what helped Ray Sheppard turn into a 50-goal man.



That doesn't mean they played together often. Kariya and Selanne shared 17 points in 1997-98, which is 19.8% of Selanne's production. Fedorov and Yzerman shared 10 points, which is 20% of Fedorov's production. Selanne/Kariya were allowed to roam free offensively. Yzerman and Fedorov were expected to play strong defensively and did so; Fedorov finished fourth in Selke voting.

And also notable? Had each player played the full season schedule at their PPG pace (with no other players changing total points), their finishes would have been as such:

Selanne: 58 (1st)-47 (9th)-107 (1st)
Fedorov: 23(14th)-34(13th)-57(8th)
Fedorov (82GP): 39-59-98

Yes, Fedorov did play time with Coffey, who scored about a billion points that season. Coffey also played a ridiculous ratio of PP to ES minutes, and an insane amount of time.



I think you have it backwards. Fedorov dropped in scoring the next season when he had weak support; but Hull dropped 8 points despite still having Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Shanahan, Lidstrom. Shanahan dropped fifteen points. It wasn't Hull/Shanahan carrying Fedorov's numbers, it was the reverse. Fedorov was put out there and basically told to go score, and worry about defense as #2 (Lewis being his first coach since Murray to have this priority) and he and anyone with him went out and posted killer numbers. He wasn't the only Wings center doing it, either; Datsyuk had 51 in 64.

People say Fedorov was a terrible player for coaching... I don't understand that from what I saw. He went out and did everything his coaches asked of him. Play the wing? Ok. Play on D? Ok. Focus primarily on defense and shut the other team down? No problem. Go out and simply outscore them? You got it.

Never once was he criticized for lack of effort or "not showing up" until his holdout in 1997. Not once. Had that never happened, he'd be considered the same kind of leader and hard worker Draper is. There's a reason he had an A put on his chest; you don't get those in Detroit just by being a good player.
Im making my statements based on what I see from the link ohashi sent me. LOL at fedorov being the one carrying shanahan, hull and lidstrom, [mod]. The year before it was shanahan that lead detriot in scoring, not fedorov, serige carrying shanahan, what a joke. He was sent to a crappy team the following season and fell back to earth, his normal production. You can make any rebuttal you want, fedorov had tons of help in 1994, 1995, 1996 and 2003. No he didnt spend all of 1996 playing solely with the russian 5, lidstrom-coffey and even yzerman were still contributing to a good chunk of his offense, the boxscores are there I dont need to bring up arguments. Fedorov was a relevant scorer 4 times in 18 freakin years! In all 4 seasons he had tons of help. No he didnt carry shanahan-hull-lidstrom, [mod].

83 points isn't killer numbers especially if you got 3 great players, well maybe for fedorov's standards it was. Coffey is the one who got all the hart votes for Detriot in 1995, but hey I guess you know better and Coffey was just overrated that season, while Fedorov was arguably the best player right Eva?


Last edited by Fugu: 03-23-2013 at 09:05 PM. Reason: watch the personal shots
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03-23-2013, 06:40 PM
  #506
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so basically we have the realization that when a player plays with good offensive players in an offensive role as Fedorov did in 94-96 they will generally score more... nice

To correct some of the stuff being said here.

Fedorov did in fact play with Yzerman in the beginning of 94 on Yzerman's wing. And then when Yzerman returned from injury in December he played on Fedorov's wing for a bit.

It wasnt Fedorov who mainly played with Sheppard in 94 it was Yzerman. Fedorov played with Ciccarelli and Kozlov a lot.

Kozlov as Sentinel noted was a pretty damn good player. As a prospect they used to say he was better than Fedorov/Bure/Mogilny before his car accident. Dont know why people are dumping on this guy esp in the mid 90s. The 3rd best player on the Russian 5 behind Feds and Konstantinov...

Coffey was paired with Lidstrom in 96 and - 93/94/95 - but Fedorov played with the Russian 5 for much of 96. So Sentinel is once again correct that you wouldnt see Fedorov and Coffey on together in 96 much even on the PP. Yes in 94/95, not 96.

As good as all these guys were with the exception of Yzerman in 94 and Coffey in 95 none of the guys who played with Fedorov were inflating his stats more than he was inflating theirs and none of these guys were Kariya. Just like Selanne scored more when Kariya was playing then without during 98 ofc Feds is going to score more when playing with the best talent. The entire point has been outside of the mid 90s and 03 he really didnt play with such consistently good linemates in a consistent offensive role.

BTW eva Feds was called out in 95 and the 96 playoffs sometimes. The Wings beat writers dont really matter and the general out of Detroit media had even less of a clue but teammates called Feds out at times too like Coffey and Errey.

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03-23-2013, 10:21 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
The year before it was shanahan that lead detriot in scoring, not fedorov, serige carrying shanahan, what a joke.
Fedorov also played some time on defense in 2002. That will generally cut down your scoring numbers.

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He was sent to a crappy team the following season and fell back to earth, his normal production. You can make any rebuttal you want, fedorov had tons of help in 1994, 1995, 1996 and 2003. No he didnt spend all of 1996 playing solely with the russian 5, lidstrom-coffey and even yzerman were still contributing to a good chunk of his offense, the boxscores are there I dont need to bring up arguments. Fedorov was a relevant scorer 4 times in 18 freakin years! In all 4 seasons he had tons of help. No he didnt carry shanahan-hull-lidstrom,
Show me again how many points Kariya didn't contribute to during Selanne's prime? Fedorov was a Selke contender. Selanne was a liability. Fedorov played the occasional shift with a very talented teammate. Selanne played EVERY shift with an ALL-STAR teammate who was better than he was. Fedorov didn't get to have Kariya in Anaheim like Selanne did, either. Of course, if Anaheim had Selanne in 2003-04 instead of Fedorov, Vinny Prospal or Petr Sykora would likely have been the team scoring leader.

Quote:
83 points isn't killer numbers especially if you got 3 great players, well maybe for fedorov's standards it was. Coffey is the one who got all the hart votes for Detriot in 1995, but hey I guess you know better and Coffey was just overrated that season, while Fedorov was arguably the best player right Eva?
Coffey got the Hart votes because he had an unexpectedly great season and was a defenseman who led the team in scoring and was top-ten overall. Fedorov was the team's actual best player. I don't know that I'd say Coffey was overrated, but I will say he benefited a lot from playing with Nick Lidstrom as his most common partner.

But since you are so hung up on scoring, here are some interesting numbers:

During Fedorov's career, he was 11th in goals, 10th in assists, and 8th in total points. He was 36th in GPG, 45th in APG, and 31st in PPG among those with 400 total games (~22GP/season).

Selanne, through the end of last season, is 1st/6th/2nd total and 10th/48th/11th per game.

Fedorov was arguably the best defensive forward to play in the league during his career, with others like Lehtinen, Madden, and Carbonneau in the discussion.

Selanne only has his offense.

And finally, Fedorov had to compete against several players whose stats are largely inflated relative to his own due to entering their 90s in or near their offensive prime and ending their career without playing many - if any - DPE years. Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Pat LaFontaine and Dale Hawerchuk are notable offenders. Mike Gartner, Ray Sheppard, Jeff Brown, and Craig Janney are some others.

One interesting fact I noticed? From 90-91 through 95-96 (Fedorov's first six years) he was tenth in overall scoring. He was nine points behind Jagr in nine fewer games (with a slightly better PPG). He was exactly 100 points behind overall scoring leader Wayne Gretzky in that six-year span, an average of less than 17 points per season. He was only 34 points behind Steve Yzerman, an average of under six points.

In Fedorov's first three seasons, when he was playing second line and even some third line time early on as the Carson debacle was sorted out, he was still 23rd in league scoring with a Selke nomination (2nd place, with most 1st votes) and another 4th-place finish. He was a mere ten points behind Mark Messier during that three-year span.

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03-23-2013, 10:42 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov also played some time on defense in 2002. That will generally cut down your scoring numbers.



Show me again how many points Kariya didn't contribute to during Selanne's prime? Fedorov was a Selke contender. Selanne was a liability. Fedorov played the occasional shift with a very talented teammate. Selanne played EVERY shift with an ALL-STAR teammate who was better than he was. Fedorov didn't get to have Kariya in Anaheim like Selanne did, either. Of course, if Anaheim had Selanne in 2003-04 instead of Fedorov, Vinny Prospal or Petr Sykora would likely have been the team scoring leader.



Coffey got the Hart votes because he had an unexpectedly great season and was a defenseman who led the team in scoring and was top-ten overall. Fedorov was the team's actual best player. I don't know that I'd say Coffey was overrated, but I will say he benefited a lot from playing with Nick Lidstrom as his most common partner.

But since you are so hung up on scoring, here are some interesting numbers:

During Fedorov's career, he was 11th in goals, 10th in assists, and 8th in total points. He was 36th in GPG, 45th in APG, and 31st in PPG among those with 400 total games (~22GP/season).

Selanne, through the end of last season, is 1st/6th/2nd total and 10th/48th/11th per game.

Fedorov was arguably the best defensive forward to play in the league during his career, with others like Lehtinen, Madden, and Carbonneau in the discussion.

Selanne only has his offense.

And finally, Fedorov had to compete against several players whose stats are largely inflated relative to his own due to entering their 90s in or near their offensive prime and ending their career without playing many - if any - DPE years. Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Pat LaFontaine and Dale Hawerchuk are notable offenders. Mike Gartner, Ray Sheppard, Jeff Brown, and Craig Janney are some others.

One interesting fact I noticed? From 90-91 through 95-96 (Fedorov's first six years) he was tenth in overall scoring. He was nine points behind Jagr in nine fewer games (with a slightly better PPG). He was exactly 100 points behind overall scoring leader Wayne Gretzky in that six-year span, an average of less than 17 points per season. He was only 34 points behind Steve Yzerman, an average of under six points.

In Fedorov's first three seasons, when he was playing second line and even some third line time early on as the Carson debacle was sorted out, he was still 23rd in league scoring with a Selke nomination (2nd place, with most 1st votes) and another 4th-place finish. He was a mere ten points behind Mark Messier during that three-year span.
Your basically making the same arguments that modano/gilmour fans make in the past. I dont care which linemates fedorov played with. Players like Modano/Gilmour/Fedorov didnt have the passing vision of a Forsberg-Thornton-Oates. Fedorov would never reach thier peak offense because they are superior passers than him.

Fedorov was never going to be the type of center that would completely inflate the production of his linemates, thats why you have to resort to your normal linemates excuse. Based on the games of fedorov that I have watched through the years, I can make conclusions with my own eyes that Fedorov would have never reached the level of Forsberg-Oates-Thornton in terms of consistent offense because thier passing abilities were a level above his.

Selanne scored at a high level at every point in his career except for his knee-plagued seasons because he's a far superior goal scorer than fedorov will ever be. You can give fedorov mythical status with unlimited potential. He is what he is, an elite two way forward with a few offensive seasons. Offensively, he was never going to match 'Forsberg-Thornton-Oates' level of passing ability, so it doesn't matter what linemates you bring up. Oates scored 142 points centering Juneau and Khartanolov, put Fedorov on that line and he wont even score 100 points. Fedorov would have never boosted Neely-Hull the way Oates did, or the way Thornton boosted Cheechoo and Forsberg made a million bucks out of Hedjuk. His vision was nothing compared to thiers, thats why he has to focus more on defense.

Fedorov's defensive responsibilities are not the reason he's not an upper-echelon playmaker, his lack of vision compared to those 3 are. Selanne scores regardless of which defenseman launches the puck for him, he scores regardless of who he plays with. Fedorov's production drops once hes not on Detroit.

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03-24-2013, 12:07 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Your basically making the same arguments that modano/gilmour fans make in the past. I dont care which linemates fedorov played with. Players like Modano/Gilmour/Fedorov didnt have the passing vision of a Forsberg-Thornton-Oates. Fedorov would never reach thier peak offense because they are superior passers than him.

Fedorov was never going to be the type of center that would completely inflate the production of his linemates, thats why you have to resort to your normal linemates excuse. Based on the games of fedorov that I have watched through the years, I can make conclusions with my own eyes that Fedorov would have never reached the level of Forsberg-Oates-Thornton in terms of consistent offense because thier passing abilities were a level above his.

Selanne scored at a high level at every point in his career except for his knee-plagued seasons because he's a far superior goal scorer than fedorov will ever be. You can give fedorov mythical status with unlimited potential. He is what he is, an elite two way forward with a few offensive seasons. Offensively, he was never going to match 'Forsberg-Thornton-Oates' level of passing ability, so it doesn't matter what linemates you bring up. Oates scored 142 points centering Juneau and Khartanolov, put Fedorov on that line and he wont even score 100 points. Fedorov would have never boosted Neely-Hull the way Oates did, or the way Thornton boosted Cheechoo and Forsberg made a million bucks out of Hedjuk. His vision was nothing compared to thiers, thats why he has to focus more on defense.

Fedorov's defensive responsibilities are not the reason he's not an upper-echelon playmaker, his lack of vision compared to those 3 are. Selanne scores regardless of which defenseman launches the puck for him, he scores regardless of who he plays with. Fedorov's production drops once hes not on Detroit.
Career-best offensive season for a few different centers:

LaFontaine 53-95-148 (2AS)
Messier 45-84-129 (+Hart/Pearson/1AS)
Thornton 29-96-125 (+Hart/1AS)
Lindros 46GP, 29-41-70 (94-95; projects to ~81GP, 51-72-123) (+Hart/Pearson/1AS)
Fedorov 56-64-120 (+Hart/Pearson/Selke/1AS)
Sakic 54-64-118 (+Hart/Lindsay/Byng/1AS)
Oates 61GP, 25-90-115 (2AS)
Forsberg 29-77-106 (+Hart/Ross/1AS)

Now the second-best season for those same centers:

Oates 45-97-142
Sakic 51-69-120
Forsberg 30-86-116
Lindros 47-68-115 (2AS)
Thornton 22-92-114
Messier 37-74-111
Fedorov 39-68-107 (+Selke)
LaFontaine 57GP, 46-47-93

I think we've gone round and round enough about Fedorov not being used as a first-line scoring center the same way the other guys on this list were. Forsberg is the only one who was considered a highly skilled defensive forward throughout his prime - and he wasn't considered on Fedorov's level. Oates was considered responsible, and Messier and Lindros were "tough to play against". LaFontaine and Sakic were scorers through and through, and unlike Sakic, LaFontaine did not last long enough to become a well-rounded player. He did have a much better offensive game, though.

Also...

Fedorov had 34-53-87 in 73 in 1992-93. He played with an assortment of linemates including a lot of Sheppard (66), Ysebaert (62), and Drake (44).

Guess what? 34/73*84=39.12, and 53/73*84=60.99. That means Fedorov was on pace for... 39-61-100.

But yeah, he wouldn't have scored 100 points with Joe Juneau (107), Dmitri Kvartalnov (72), and some Cam Neely (18) for good measure. That certainly doesn't increase the talent of his linemates one bit. And I bet playing him on the first line in an offensive role in Oates' place wouldn't have helped either. Not one bit.

If Fedorov plays in Oates' place in 1992-93, and plays the 83 or 84 games Oates played, I wouldn't be shocked to see him score 130 points. You're right, he wasn't the kind of playmaker Oates/Thornton/Forsberg were. But he was a much better goal scorer. Had Fedorov been between Juneau and Kvartalnov in 1992-93, I wouldn't have been surprised to see numbers similar to Yzerman's 1989-90 season.


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03-24-2013, 01:03 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Career-best offensive season for a few different centers:

LaFontaine 53-95-148 (2AS)
Messier 45-84-129 (+Hart/Pearson/1AS)
Thornton 29-96-125 (+Hart/1AS)
Lindros 46GP, 29-41-70 (94-95; projects to ~81GP, 51-72-123) (+Hart/Pearson/1AS)
Fedorov 56-64-120 (+Hart/Pearson/Selke/1AS)
Sakic 54-64-118 (+Hart/Lindsay/Byng/1AS)
Oates 61GP, 25-90-115 (2AS)
Forsberg 29-77-106 (+Hart/Ross/1AS)

Now the second-best season for those same centers:

Oates 45-97-142
Sakic 51-69-120
Forsberg 30-86-116
Lindros 47-68-115 (2AS)
Thornton 22-92-114
Messier 37-74-111
Fedorov 39-68-107 (+Selke)
LaFontaine 57GP, 46-47-93

I think we've gone round and round enough about Fedorov not being used as a first-line scoring center the same way the other guys on this list were. Forsberg is the only one who was considered a highly skilled defensive forward throughout his prime - and he wasn't considered on Fedorov's level. Oates was considered responsible, and Messier and Lindros were "tough to play against". LaFontaine and Sakic were scorers through and through, and unlike Sakic, LaFontaine did not last long enough to become a well-rounded player. He did have a much better offensive game, though.

Also...

Fedorov had 34-53-87 in 73 in 1992-93. He played with an assortment of linemates including a lot of Sheppard (66), Ysebaert (62), and Drake (44).

Guess what? 34/73*84=39.12, and 53/73*84=60.99. That means Fedorov was on pace for... 39-61-100.

But yeah, he wouldn't have scored 100 points with Joe Juneau (107), Dmitri Kvartalnov (72), and some Cam Neely (18) for good measure. That certainly doesn't increase the talent of his linemates one bit. And I bet playing him on the first line in an offensive role in Oates' place wouldn't have helped either. Not one bit.

If Fedorov plays in Oates' place in 1992-93, and plays the 83 or 84 games Oates played, I wouldn't be shocked to see him score 130 points. You're right, he wasn't the kind of playmaker Oates/Thornton/Forsberg were. But he was a much better goal scorer. Had Fedorov been between Juneau and Kvartalnov in 1992-93, I wouldn't have been surprised to see numbers similar to Yzerman's 1989-90 season.
Juneau scored 107 because he buried passes from oates. Fedorov was a much better skater and much faster than oates, but he would not have clicked with joey juneau the way Oates did, burying passes from oates is much different from taking passes from fedorov. Sergei was much better 2 way player, but not in the thornton-oates class as a passer regardless of how much ice-time or linemates he gets. Teemu had god given ability to score goals, making lame attempts to explain his reasons for why he produced wont cut it, he was scoring before he ever played with kariya and hes been scoring post lockout. Fedorov had great defensive skills, but he was never going to have teemu's goal scoring or forsberg-oates-thornton esque passing. Only some players have the complete toolbox and fedorov isnt one of them.

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03-24-2013, 01:22 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Juneau scored 107 because he buried passes from oates. Fedorov was a much better skater and much faster than oates, but he would not have clicked with joey juneau the way Oates did, burying passes from oates is much different from taking passes from fedorov.
You do realize that Juneau had 32 goals and 70 assists, right? He wasn't some sniper. Juneau was a playmaker. And that 32 goals in 84 games that he had, that made up 20.5% of his career total. In the rest of his career he scored 124 in 744; which projects to exactly 14 goals in 84 games. He had 346 assists in those 744 games, which project to 39 assists in 84 games, making him a 53 point player outside of that season. He was usually the best player on his line as well. 1992-93 was also an odd year for scoring. So my guess is that, had he played with Fedorov instead of Oates, he'd have had closer to 20 goals and perhaps closer to 80 assists. Kvartalnov only played 39 more games in the NHL, being half of the next season. They were not played on Oates' wing (Neely was healthy and scoring at better than 1 GPG) so his final 93-94 scoring line was 39GP, 12-7-19.

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Only some players have the complete toolbox and fedorov isnt one of them.
If Fedorov doesn't have a complete skill set, then there are only a handful of players in history that do.

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03-24-2013, 01:26 AM
  #512
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You do realize that Juneau had 32 goals and 70 assists, right? He wasn't some sniper. Juneau was a playmaker. And that 32 goals in 84 games that he had, that made up 20.5% of his career total. In the rest of his career he scored 124 in 744; which projects to exactly 14 goals in 84 games. He had 346 assists in those 744 games, which project to 39 assists in 84 games, making him a 53 point player outside of that season. He was usually the best player on his line as well. 1992-93 was also an odd year for scoring. So my guess is that, had he played with Fedorov instead of Oates, he'd have had closer to 20 goals and perhaps closer to 80 assists. Kvartalnov only played 39 more games in the NHL, being half of the next season. They were not played on Oates' wing (Neely was healthy and scoring at better than 1 GPG) so his final 93-94 scoring line was 39GP, 12-7-19.



If Fedorov doesn't have a complete skill set, then there are only a handful of players in history that do.
Is fedorov an elite goal scorer or elite playmaker? Not really. Players like Sakic and Forsberg dont have to sacrifice thier offense in order to play selke defense, fedorov did. I will openly admit Fedorov had a higher potential ceiling than selanne, but its not enough to rank him over teemu on the all time lists, sorry. We'll see 5 years from now who gets ranked higher all time.

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03-24-2013, 01:04 PM
  #513
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Juneau scored 107 because he buried passes from oates. Fedorov was a much better skater and much faster than oates, but he would not have clicked with joey juneau the way Oates did, burying passes from oates is much different from taking passes from fedorov. .

Even though I like what you are doing here because this St. Fedorov stuff is beyond reasoning and very annoying.

However, Juneau was not burying passes from OT, he was left wing with Neely and OT. Joey registered 70 assists that year with OT getting his career high of 45 goals that season. Neely only played 13 games that year.

I believe if I remember right Kvartolnov and Steve Leach picked up the RW when Neely went down. Juneau was a pass first player, it's safer to say Juneau helped Kvartolnov, Oates and Leach to career highs in goals.

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03-24-2013, 01:13 PM
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You do realize that Juneau had 32 goals and 70 assists, right? He wasn't some sniper. Juneau was a playmaker. And that 32 goals in 84 games that he had, that made up 20.5% of his career total. In the rest of his career he scored 124 in 744; which projects to exactly 14 goals in 84 games. He had 346 assists in those 744 games, which project to 39 assists in 84 games, making him a 53 point player outside of that season. He was usually the best player on his line as well. 1992-93 was also an odd year for scoring. So my guess is that, had he played with Fedorov instead of Oates, he'd have had closer to 20 goals and perhaps closer to 80 assists. Kvartalnov only played 39 more games in the NHL, being half of the next season. They were not played on Oates' wing (Neely was healthy and scoring at better than 1 GPG) so his final 93-94 scoring line was 39GP, 12-7-19.



Wrong, he is talking about the 1992/93 Juneau 107 point season. SO why are you rattling off 1993/94 stats?

Neely played 13 games in 1992/93. Also what myth are you pushing that Neely was healthy when Adam Oates was with the Bruins. His knees were trash by the time OT got to Boston. LOL at Neely was healthy in 1993/94 too. Neely had to be rested every few games so he could at least hit 50 games played for the season. He was finally shut down at 50 game because he could barely walk nevermind skate. But somehow, in your attempt to glorify Fedorov again, you casually list Neely as healthy. You gotta stop these twists and manipulations of the facts.


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If Fedorov doesn't have a complete skill set, then there are only a handful of players in history that do
I know nobody can explain HOW great St Fedorov was, no one comes close to ol' Sergei, he is number one on my list.

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03-24-2013, 02:08 PM
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Im making my statements based on what I see from the link ohashi sent me.
You're trying, I'll give you that.

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LOL at fedorov being the one carrying shanahan, hull and lidstrom, [mod]. The year before it was shanahan that lead detriot in scoring, not fedorov, serige carrying shanahan, what a joke. He was sent to a crappy team the following season and fell back to earth, his normal production. You can make any rebuttal you want, fedorov had tons of help in 1994, 1995, 1996 and 2003.
And yet, it's Sergei who won the Hart in '93/94, and Sergei who got 68/76 Hart votes among Red Wings in '95/96 (Selke both years). Think maybe Coffey sticks out from the rest in '94/95 because of the candidate selection and voting rules established to deal with conference-only play in a shortened season? Of course you don't.

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No he didnt spend all of 1996 playing solely with the russian 5, lidstrom-coffey and even yzerman were still contributing to a good chunk of his offense, the boxscores are there I dont need to bring up arguments. Fedorov was a relevant scorer 4 times in 18 freakin years! In all 4 seasons he had tons of help. No he didnt carry shanahan-hull-lidstrom, [mod].
People are doing the leg work (counting/tabulating/presentation), and your rebuttal is essentially "it still doesn't look that way to me"? Out of curiosity, how consistent are you at assigning demerit points to Selanne for putting up two of his 4 hundred point seasons in years when it was Kariya who had far more Hart votes than him (Kariya 2nd only to Hasek in '96/97, for example)?

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83 points isn't killer numbers especially if you got 3 great players, well maybe for fedorov's standards it was. Coffey is the one who got all the hart votes for Detriot in 1995, but hey I guess you know better and Coffey was just overrated that season, while Fedorov was arguably the best player right Eva?
Strawmen and hyperbole. Seriously, who expected anything else?

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03-24-2013, 07:47 PM
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Wrong, he is talking about the 1992/93 Juneau 107 point season. SO why are you rattling off 1993/94 stats?
For the same reason I mentioned all of Juneau's non-1992-93 years.

Kvartalnov, however, only played 1992-93 and 1993-94. One was with Juneau/Oates, one was not.

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Neely played 13 games in 1992/93. Also what myth are you pushing that Neely was healthy when Adam Oates was with the Bruins. His knees were trash by the time OT got to Boston. LOL at Neely was healthy in 1993/94 too. Neely had to be rested every few games so he could at least hit 50 games played for the season. He was finally shut down at 50 game because he could barely walk nevermind skate. But somehow, in your attempt to glorify Fedorov again, you casually list Neely as healthy. You gotta stop these twists and manipulations of the facts.
Ok, we'll go ahead and say "healthy" in the same condition that Yzerman was "healthy" for most of his career after his knee injury in 1988, or especially after the Steen hit in 1993.

I'll concede and revise my statement from healthy to "in playing condition".

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I know nobody can explain HOW great St Fedorov was, no one comes close to ol' Sergei, he is number one on my list.
Please list off players who have a more COMPLETE game than Fedorov, including passing/playmaking, shooting, defense, skating, faceoff ability, puckhandling, and physical play. There aren't many who can be claimed to have a game as complete as Fedorov's, and most of those who can are all-time greats. This alone does not place Fedorov on that tier, but it does speak volumes for the idea of comparing Fedorov to others based solely on offensive production. And that is what the pro-Selanne (anti-Fedorov?) crowd in here is trying to do; use offensive performance alone as the determinant when Fedorov wins a comparison in literally every other area. More specifically, goal scoring - Fedorov was the better passer and playmaker. The push for Selanne>Fedorov can be boiled down to the following statement:

"Teemu Selanne's advantage in goal scoring ability over Sergei Fedorov is greater than Fedorov's advantage in skating, playmaking, physical play, defense, and puckhandling."


Sorry. I am not sold on that faulty premise.

Pro tip: Teemu Selanne is not Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux. He's not better enough than Fedorov at one thing that the many things Fedorov is better at still don't make him nearly as good a player. Of course I am speaking of prime Gretzky; 90s Gretzky there's most certainly a very strong argument that Fedorov was the greater player, first evidenced by the 94 and 95 seasons where Gretzky barely outscored Fedorov and then did not outscore him. Gretzky in the 90s, of course, was far removed from the player he was in the 1980s even accounting for the inflated scoring of the era.

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03-24-2013, 08:26 PM
  #517
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You're trying, I'll give you that.



And yet, it's Sergei who won the Hart in '93/94, and Sergei who got 68/76 Hart votes among Red Wings in '95/96 (Selke both years). Think maybe Coffey sticks out from the rest in '94/95 because of the candidate selection and voting rules established to deal with conference-only play in a shortened season? Of course you don't.



People are doing the leg work (counting/tabulating/presentation), and your rebuttal is essentially "it still doesn't look that way to me"? Out of curiosity, how consistent are you at assigning demerit points to Selanne for putting up two of his 4 hundred point seasons in years when it was Kariya who had far more Hart votes than him (Kariya 2nd only to Hasek in '96/97, for example)?



Strawmen and hyperbole. Seriously, who expected anything else?
Oh wait, so the voting rules is the reason the writers chose to give Coffey all of the hart votes instead of Sergei? Just another excuse, I mean they could have given Fedorov the hart votes instead of Coffey, but hey what do they know about hockey?

If Kariya was so responsible for the production of Selanne, which you love stating but ignore Fedorov's tremendous help that he recieved in 1995 and 2003, then why was Selanne's ppg so much better than Kariya's in 1999? Selanne was on pace for 117 points that year, Kariya scored 101, 16 points is a pretty large gap for a deadpuck era season, but hey I forgot its all Kariya here. You've got an explanation for 1999 too? Does Selanne only score 80 points that year without Kariya, despite torching him in ppg? If Selanne was so dependent on Kariya, why did he lead the entire NHL in even strength offense in 1998?

Not to mention that it was Kariya's stats that spiked in 1996 once Selanne went to Anaheim, he was 15th in scoring prior to the trade. All your doing is criticising Selanne and ignoring all of the luxury Fedorov had, its getting ridiculous, then again I still dont see the mainstream hoh posters defending Fedorov, geez what a surprise.

Why did Fedorov tank so bad offensively from 2003 to 2004? Sykora and Prospal werent good enough linemates for him. He needs lidstrom, shanahan and hull in order to resurge back to 83 points, but when hes given prospal-sykora his offense tanks overnight. I forgot your job is to only praise St. Sergei and ignore his flaws. Prospal was scoring before he played with feds and after he played with feds, ditto to sykora, so dont give me some BS explanantion which will do nothing but give Fedorov a pass, something you've been doing the whole time.


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03-24-2013, 10:17 PM
  #518
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Oh wait, so the voting rules is the reason the writers chose to give Coffey all of the hart votes instead of Sergei? Just another excuse, I mean they could have given Fedorov the hart votes instead of Coffey, but hey what do they know about hockey?
Or they could have split votes, but actually they couldn't, because the number of candidates for the ballots was reduced, and voting treated separately for each conference. But wait, am I noticing that Alexei Zhamnov, Selanne's centre - who outscored both Selanne and Tkachuk fairly handily in the shortened season - was a post-season all-star in '94/95 while Selanne wasn't?! What are we to make of all this now?!?

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If Kariya was so responsible for the production of Selanne, which you love stating but ignore Fedorov's tremendous help that he recieved in 1995 and 2003, then why was Selanne's ppg so much better than Kariya's in 1999? Selanne was on pace for 117 points that year, Kariya scored 101, 16 points is a pretty large gap for a deadpuck era season, but hey I forgot its all Kariya here. You've got an explanation for 1999 too? Does Selanne only score 80 points that year without Kariya, despite torching him in ppg? If Selanne was so dependent on Kariya, why did he lead the entire NHL in even strength offense in 1998?

Not to mention that it was Kariya's stats that spiked in 1996 once Selanne went to Anaheim, he was 15th in scoring prior to the trade. All your doing is criticising Selanne and ignoring all of the luxury Fedorov had, its getting ridiculous, then again I still dont see the mainstream hoh posters defending Fedorov, geez what a surprise.

Why did Fedorov tank so bad offensively from 2003 to 2004? Sykora and Prospal werent good enough linemates for him. He needs lidstrom, shanahan and hull in order to resurge back to 83 points, but when hes given prospal-sykora his offense tanks overnight. I forgot your job is to only praise St. Sergei and ignore his flaws. Prospal was scoring before he played with feds and after he played with feds, ditto to sykora, so dont give me some BS explanantion which will do nothing but give Fedorov a pass, something you've been doing the whole time.
This cow flop has already been addressed by myself and others, and ignored/distorted repeatedly by yourself, so I'll definitely save the keystrokes this time.

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03-24-2013, 10:35 PM
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Oh wait, so the voting rules is the reason the writers chose to give Coffey all of the hart votes instead of Sergei? Just another excuse, I mean they could have given Fedorov the hart votes instead of Coffey, but hey what do they know about hockey?

If Kariya was so responsible for the production of Selanne, which you love stating but ignore Fedorov's tremendous help that he recieved in 1995 and 2003, then why was Selanne's ppg so much better than Kariya's in 1999? Selanne was on pace for 117 points that year, Kariya scored 101, 16 points is a pretty large gap for a deadpuck era season, but hey I forgot its all Kariya here. You've got an explanation for 1999 too? Does Selanne only score 80 points that year without Kariya, despite torching him in ppg? If Selanne was so dependent on Kariya, why did he lead the entire NHL in even strength offense in 1998?
Kariya was still a 1.23PPG, 100-point player after coming back from his concussion in 1998. That alone says something about how amazing he was as a player.

In the first 13 games of 98-99, Selanne and Kariya shared 9 scoring plays. Selanne scored a total 15 and Kariya scored .That's pace for ~57 on the season just from shared scoring.

Selanne missed the next six games. Kariya scored nine points in those games. It's almost as if the Ducks were, perhaps, keeping their best player (Kariya) on the bench a little more when Selanne was around? Perhaps because he had just had a major concussion that ended his season the previous year?

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Not to mention that it was Kariya's stats that spiked in 1996 once Selanne went to Anaheim, he was 15th in scoring prior to the trade.
At the end of Kariya's second season in the NHL, on a team with no significant scoring help (his 50-58-108 led the 1995-96 Ducks in scoring by 64 points over second-place Steve Rucchin's 44 points).

Kariya was on pace for ~100 before the trade. With Selanne on the team for almost 30 games, he achieved just under 110. Also, if Selanne was a better offensive player than Kariya, why didn't he outscore him when they were together? Selanne's numbers dropped considerably when he was taken away from Tkachuk and Zhamnov and put on a team where the highest-scoring defenseman was Bobby Dollas.

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All your doing is criticising Selanne and ignoring all of the luxury Fedorov had, its getting ridiculous, then again I still dont see the mainstream hoh posters defending Fedorov, geez what a surprise.

Why did Fedorov tank so bad offensively from 2003 to 2004? Sykora and Prospal werent good enough linemates for him. He needs lidstrom, shanahan and hull in order to resurge back to 83 points, but when hes given prospal-sykora his offense tanks overnight.
Take a guy who is told by a new coach, for one season, that instead of playing the heavy duty shut-down role that he has played most of his career that he should go out there and be the team's driving offensive force. Then, after that season, put him on a new team where the coach wants him in the old role - defense-first, defense-second, offense eventually. Give him linemates that have the ability to play offensively, but not as talented as most first-line players, and put them into the same defensive style.

What is your expectation for scoring? High-scoring or low-scoring?

Generally, when a team plays a defensive style, they don't have high scoring players. Nashville is a great example. Martin Erat, playing on a more open offensive team, could have been a 70 point guy in his best years.

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I forgot your job is to only praise St. Sergei and ignore his flaws. Prospal was scoring before he played with feds and after he played with feds, ditto to sykora, so dont give me some BS explanantion which will do nothing but give Fedorov a pass, something you've been doing the whole time.
I already pointed out that Prospal scored in Tampa with the guys they have their in the highly offensive system they were running at the time (Prospal also led the team in scoring, if you remember me mentioning that) yet he came to Anaheim's tight checking system and his production was cut down considerably, and Fedorov outscored him considerably. And as I stated for Sykora, he played in a defensive system before Anaheim and scored similar numbers, and after Anaheim he moved to less defensive systems; and outside of one big year in Pittsburgh he was still scoring less until retirement.

So not only is your statement a flame job, it is also a factually inaccurate assault attempting to damage my credibility by pointing out a situation I have already addressed.

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03-24-2013, 11:04 PM
  #520
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Kariya was still a 1.23PPG, 100-point player after coming back from his concussion in 1998. That alone says something about how amazing he was as a player.

In the first 13 games of 98-99, Selanne and Kariya shared 9 scoring plays. Selanne scored a total 15 and Kariya scored .That's pace for ~57 on the season just from shared scoring.

Selanne missed the next six games. Kariya scored nine points in those games. It's almost as if the Ducks were, perhaps, keeping their best player (Kariya) on the bench a little more when Selanne was around? Perhaps because he had just had a major concussion that ended his season the previous year?



At the end of Kariya's second season in the NHL, on a team with no significant scoring help (his 50-58-108 led the 1995-96 Ducks in scoring by 64 points over second-place Steve Rucchin's 44 points).

Kariya was on pace for ~100 before the trade. With Selanne on the team for almost 30 games, he achieved just under 110. Also, if Selanne was a better offensive player than Kariya, why didn't he outscore him when they were together? Selanne's numbers dropped considerably when he was taken away from Tkachuk and Zhamnov and put on a team where the highest-scoring defenseman was Bobby Dollas.



Take a guy who is told by a new coach, for one season, that instead of playing the heavy duty shut-down role that he has played most of his career that he should go out there and be the team's driving offensive force. Then, after that season, put him on a new team where the coach wants him in the old role - defense-first, defense-second, offense eventually. Give him linemates that have the ability to play offensively, but not as talented as most first-line players, and put them into the same defensive style.

What is your expectation for scoring? High-scoring or low-scoring?

Generally, when a team plays a defensive style, they don't have high scoring players. Nashville is a great example. Martin Erat, playing on a more open offensive team, could have been a 70 point guy in his best years.



I already pointed out that Prospal scored in Tampa with the guys they have their in the highly offensive system they were running at the time (Prospal also led the team in scoring, if you remember me mentioning that) yet he came to Anaheim's tight checking system and his production was cut down considerably, and Fedorov outscored him considerably. And as I stated for Sykora, he played in a defensive system before Anaheim and scored similar numbers, and after Anaheim he moved to less defensive systems; and outside of one big year in Pittsburgh he was still scoring less until retirement.

So not only is your statement a flame job, it is also a factually inaccurate assault attempting to damage my credibility by pointing out a situation I have already addressed.
LOL, were you the rinkside journalist covering the ducks throughout that 1999 season, damn it seems like Kariya was sending you his daily journals and you knew the exact condition of his health and the strategies as to how the ducks management were going to use him in the games Selanne missed. Selanne's ppg was significantly better that year, dont care what excuses you make. Selanne did outscore him during the 5 years they spent together, oh wait but your going to give kariya miles of credit for his paces during all the games he missed in 1997 and 1998, while Selanne lead the entire nhl in even strength offense in 1998 and had the exact same ppg in the 60 games they played together in 1997, and had the better ppg in 1996 and 1999. When did kariya start outproducing him, in 2000, when Selanne's knee troubles began, awesome arguments. Selanne had an elite rookie year, cracked the top 10 in 2011, MVP candidate in 1998 and had back to back resurgent seasons after the pock lockout, he accomplished all of this without Kariya. Kariya accomplished what without Selanne? Two 80 point seasons and nothing else, yes Selanne was the one who benefiited.

Its funny how you have no explanation whatsoever for why Selanne's point per game in 1999 was significantly better. 1.43 ppg compared to 1.23 ppg is a massive gap, especially for the deadpuck era. I mean if you say they were resting Kariya and putting him on the bench so he wouldnt suffer another major injury, then shouldnt selanne's production have declined. But no, it was the exact opposite, he was chasing Jagr for the scoring title in Jagr's best individual season. Yes Kariya is directly responsilbe for Selanne's success in 1999 despite Selanne blowing him out of the water in terms of ppg, wow what a great philosophical argument you've made, bravo to you EVA.

Wait instead of acknowleding that Fedorov did nothing in the 2004 season. Your going to sit here and pretend that you were at thier training camps and the coach made sure that Fedorov would only score 60 points right? I mean damn Patrick Elias and Mike Modano were playing for all-out offenses during the deadpuck era? Instead of recognizing that Feds dropped in production, your here to make a brand new set of excuses. You must be a paid fan, his worshipping is just getting out of hand. Modano and Elias were playing for extremely defensive minded teams, so why were they cracking top 5 and top 10 scoring lists, while Fedorov was putting up his 60 point seasons? Was Anahiem more defensive minded than the devils and stars?


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03-24-2013, 11:23 PM
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I mean damn Patrick Elias and Mike Modano were playing for all-out offenses during the deadpuck era? Instead of recognizing that Feds dropped in production, your here to make a brand new set of excuses. You must be a paid fan, his worshipping is just getting out of hand. Modano and Elias were playing for extremely defensive minded teams, so why were they cracking top 5 and top 10 scoring lists, while Fedorov was putting up his 60 point seasons? Was Anahiem more defensive minded than the devils and stars?
Modano never played in a defense-first role. His first priority was always offense.

Elias finished in the top ten three separate years as the #1 forward on a team that finished 1st, 12th, and 11th in scoring.

Anaheim with Fedorov in 2003-04 was the second-lowest scoring team in the league with only 184 goals. Detroit the previous year had 269 goals. Had Fedorov simply maintained the same percentage of his team's offense that he was involved in, he would have had 56 or 57 points. Instead he had 65. Imagine if he were playing with a skilled teammate or two, like Kariya, Niedermayer, Pronger, etc.

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03-24-2013, 11:33 PM
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Modano never played in a defense-first role. His first priority was always offense.
Apparently we were watching different Ken Hitchcock teams than you were. In the real world everyone on a Ken Hitchcock team is defense-first

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03-24-2013, 11:38 PM
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So not only is your statement a flame job, it is also a factually inaccurate assault attempting to damage my credibility by pointing out a situation I have already addressed.
Not used to that yet?

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03-25-2013, 12:03 AM
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Apparently we were watching different Ken Hitchcock teams than you were. In the real world everyone on a Ken Hitchcock team is defense-first
If that was Modano's "defense first" then he is an incredibly talented offensive player and pretty poor defensively.

Reality is that Modano, throughout his career, wasn't terribly good about systems. He was a solid two-way player at his peak, not a Fedorov/Yzerman/Forsberg/Sakic, but solid. But when it came to systems that required him to plug in as a piece, that was a bit more difficult for him than other guys who brought similar overall results. I don't know if I'd agree with it, but the usual explanation for that around here would be "diagnosis: low hockey IQ". I guess I never examined Modano in that sense but I wouldn't rule it out. He was a speedster who preferred his shot over his pass, but unlike a great deal of speedster/scorer types Modano had good size and strength. This allowed him to adapt better to the tight checking of the DPE as he entered his prime, even without making significant changes to his play style. He was effective defensively in his prime, but he was also on the ice with Jere Lehtinen and any two of Sergei Zubov, Darryl Sydor, Derian Hatcher, and Richard Matvichuk. Or possibly Craig Ludwig.

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03-25-2013, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If that was Modano's "defense first" then he is an incredibly talented offensive player and pretty poor defensively.

Reality is that Modano, throughout his career, wasn't terribly good about systems. He was a solid two-way player at his peak, not a Fedorov/Yzerman/Forsberg/Sakic, but solid. But when it came to systems that required him to plug in as a piece, that was a bit more difficult for him than other guys who brought similar overall results. I don't know if I'd agree with it, but the usual explanation for that around here would be "diagnosis: low hockey IQ". I guess I never examined Modano in that sense but I wouldn't rule it out. He was a speedster who preferred his shot over his pass, but unlike a great deal of speedster/scorer types Modano had good size and strength. This allowed him to adapt better to the tight checking of the DPE as he entered his prime, even without making significant changes to his play style. He was effective defensively in his prime, but he was also on the ice with Jere Lehtinen and any two of Sergei Zubov, Darryl Sydor, Derian Hatcher, and Richard Matvichuk. Or possibly Craig Ludwig.
You really DON'T know much about players who didn't play for the Ded Things

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