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Desharnais signed to a contract extension (4 years @ $3.5M/yr)

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Old
03-24-2013, 10:13 PM
  #976
DDs not undersized
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Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
Desharnais has to play with at least one or two big wingers. Desharnais gets to play with Pacioretty (our best sniper) and Gallagher ( the calder candidate) while Eller is forced to play with Galchenyuk ( A rookie who is trying to find his scoring touch again ) and Armstrong ( A role player who contributes very little offensively. Also, Desharnais gets more powerplay time than Eller. This is because Desharnais cannot play a defensive role like Eller can so Desharnais gets to play the soft minutes and focus on his offence.

If we didn't sign Desharnais and signed a bigger second/third line centre that can play defence, we would be much better off. Instead Bergevin is handcuffed.
Don't you think it's funny that the best producing wingers are always playing with DD? I mean, if MaxPac was playing with Eller, do you believe he would still be our best sniper? If Gallagher was with Eller, and Galchenyuk with DD, do you think the Calder candidate would be the same guy? I have doubts about it.

By the way, how is the big power forward Erik Cole doing this year without DD? Just asking...

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03-24-2013, 10:14 PM
  #977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Don't you think it's funny that the best producing wingers are always playing with DD? I mean, if MaxPac was playing with Eller, do you believe he would still be our best sniper? If Gallagher was with Eller, and Galchenyuk with DD, do you think the Calder candidate would be the same guy? I have doubts about it.

By the way, how is the big power forward Erik Cole doing this year without DD? Just asking...
Gallagher was producing before he was moved to the DD line.

Also, the whole 60% o-zone starts and playing against soft competition thing doesn't hurt. We can play this chicken-egg game all day though. But Desharnais is a good playmaker sure.

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03-24-2013, 10:15 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Don't you think it's funny that the best producing wingers are always playing with DD? I mean, if MaxPac was playing with Eller, do you believe he would still be our best sniper? If Gallagher was with Eller, and Galchenyuk with DD, do you think the Calder candidate would be the same guy? I have doubts about it.

By the way, how is the big power forward Erik Cole doing this year without DD? Just asking...
Hahaha that's the most messed up logic I've heard in this thread.

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03-24-2013, 10:16 PM
  #979
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I'd like Therrien to try a Gionta Desharnais Gallagher line.

Habs had a lot of great smurf lines in the past that were productive.

Desharnais is a good offensive player and other team have to put him in their gameplan because if not they'll pay the Price.

Perfect players are rare in the nhl and the Habs don't have one. But we are well balanced and that's why we are winning right now.

The hate for Desharnais is getting ridiculous around here... Maybe as much as my hate for Price. But at least I know that I'm biased when I judge his performances.

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03-24-2013, 10:26 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
This.

I'll agree RDS has an agenda and would go to war against Bergevin if he shipped DD out much as they did when Gauthier let MAB(!) go, but I'm not sure if nationality ever played a role in who the Habs signed. Maybe under Savard when they were competing for ratings with the Nordiques, but not in recent memory.

Desharnais is Quebecois, unless you work for RDS there's no reason to obsess over that one way or the other. It's not why he's on the team (well it is in the sense that some other team probably would have scouted him first...but besides that), regardless of his faults.
He was signed to ATO with NYI. They let him go. He has a short stint in Bridgeport.

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Old
03-24-2013, 10:40 PM
  #981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Don't you think it's funny that the best producing wingers are always playing with DD? I mean, if MaxPac was playing with Eller, do you believe he would still be our best sniper? If Gallagher was with Eller, and Galchenyuk with DD, do you think the Calder candidate would be the same guy? I have doubts about it.

By the way, how is the big power forward Erik Cole doing this year without DD? Just asking...
Gallagher was producing a decent amount when he was with Galchenyuk and Prust... So don't see your point...

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Old
03-24-2013, 10:47 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
He was signed to ATO with NYI. They let him go. He has a short stint in Bridgeport.
Interesting, I never knew that. Sucks for them because if anyone could have used him...

Didn't Carbo recommend we sign him?

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Old
03-24-2013, 11:55 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
Desharnais has to play with at least one or two big wingers. Desharnais gets to play with Pacioretty (our best sniper) and Gallagher ( the calder candidate) while Eller is forced to play with Galchenyuk ( A rookie who is trying to find his scoring touch again ) and Armstrong ( A role player who contributes very little offensively. Also, Desharnais gets more powerplay time than Eller. This is because Desharnais cannot play a defensive role like Eller can so Desharnais gets to play the soft minutes and focus on his offence.

If we didn't sign Desharnais and signed a bigger second/third line centre that can play defence, we would be much better off. Instead Bergevin is handcuffed.
The solution is simple. Eller has to improve his scoring.

No amount of blaming DD's linemates will improve Eller's performance. It all lies with Eller. Four goals does not bolster your argument. And Eller is getting a lot of icetime now. So that excuse is off the table as well.

I want Eller to be a 30 goal scorer. He plays for the Habs and I want success for this team. I have no "favorite" center on this team and I want all of the players to succeed. Even Halpern who I was not thrilled to see back in Montreal.

It just sounds weird to criticize a player on the Canadiens roster just to make excuses as to why your "favorite" center is somehow being slighted in your mind.

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Old
03-24-2013, 11:58 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Theosis View Post
Gallagher was producing a decent amount when he was with Galchenyuk and Prust... So don't see your point...

Prust?

The same Prust that most people want to see on the 4th line now? That guy?

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Old
03-25-2013, 12:07 AM
  #985
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The solution is simple. Eller has to improve his scoring.

No amount of blaming DD's linemates will improve Eller's performance. It all lies with Eller. Four goals does not bolster your argument. And Eller is getting a lot of icetime now. So that excuse is off the table as well.

I want Eller to be a 30 goal scorer. He plays for the Habs and I want success for this team. I have no "favorite" center on this team and I want all of the players to succeed. Even Halpern who I was not thrilled to see back in Montreal.

It just sounds weird to criticize a player on the Canadiens roster just to make excuses as to why your "favorite" center is somehow being slighted in your mind.
It is not clear that Steven Stamkos would very able to score 30 goals with Eller's zone starts and linemates.

Read the large stats post I made.

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03-25-2013, 12:19 AM
  #986
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Interesting, I never knew that. Sucks for them because if anyone could have used him...

Didn't Carbo recommend we sign him?
Yes he did. Just NYI did it as well. First in fact.


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Old
03-25-2013, 12:23 AM
  #987
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statistical proof Desharnais is our worst top 9 forward

Decided to take a look and see if the stats bear, what I am seeing with my eyes, that Deharnais is one of our worse top 9 forwards.

On the hockeyanalysis dot com site I looked at Montreal forwards Goal For% playing more than 275 minutes even strength this year. The resulting lists 9 Habs forwards (see attached).


The Top GF% habs are Prust, the two Gallys and Eller.

The Bottom GF% habs are Gionta, Ryder and dead last by a good margin..... Desharnais!

And for this type of performance he gets rewarded with a 4 year contract by MB?

Attachment 62233
Attached Images
File Type: jpg dd-gfpct2.jpg‎ (73.2 KB, 17 views)


Last edited by WakeUpNHL: 03-25-2013 at 12:30 AM. Reason: fixed image
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03-25-2013, 12:30 AM
  #988
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Desharnais on pace for 21 goals, 27 assists. Seems like top 9 numbers to me. 20 goal scorer for 3.5 ish seems normal. That's similar to AK's production and cost. Granted DD might be worth a little less on his bad year, like maybe 3 mil. His last year drove up the price but still reasonable.

Quick stat:

Last year Desharnais had 13 ES goals and 27 ES assists.

This year Desharnais is on pace for 18 ES goals and 18 ES assists.

Essentially, 5 goals more and 9 assists less in his 'bad year'.

Granted, stats aren't everything but at ES he's doing fine IMO.

If DD were producing on PP this discussion wouldn't be happening. His offensive output on PP has been underwhelming.

Just to compare, if DD had same PPPTS/GP as last year, he would have 22 Pts(or 21.75 rather) in his 31 games played. Over 81 games(same as last year) that is 58 Pts.

This isn't to illustrate Desharnais is playing perfect and without error. Of course not, it's just to say his ES production is on same pace but the PP production is lacking.

Granted, those who know statistics will point out his output may be luck and he hasn't been as much as an impact player as last year and they'd be right. I'm just trying to show it's not as bad as people are claiming. The difference is PP production.

I would 100% support DD being bumped off PP and having to re-earn his PP icetime.

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Old
03-25-2013, 12:37 AM
  #989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Desharnais on pace for 21 goals, 27 assists. Seems like top 9 numbers to me. 20 goal scorer for 3.5 ish seems normal. That's similar to AK's production and cost. Granted DD might be worth a little less on his bad year, like maybe 3 mil. His last year drove up the price but still reasonable.

Quick stat:

Last year Desharnais had 13 ES goals and 27 ES assists.

This year Desharnais is on pace for 18 ES goals and 18 ES assists.

Essentially, 5 goals more and 9 assists less in his 'bad year'.

Granted, stats aren't everything but at ES he's doing fine IMO.

If DD were producing on PP this discussion wouldn't be happening. His offensive output on PP has been underwhelming.

Just to compare, if DD had same PPPTS/GP as last year, he would have 22 Pts(or 21.75 rather) in his 31 games played. Over 81 games(same as last year) that is 58 Pts.

This isn't to illustrate Desharnais is playing perfect and without error. Of course not, it's just to say his ES production is on same pace but the PP production is lacking.

Granted, those who know statistics will point out his output may be luck and he hasn't been as much as an impact player as last year and they'd be right. I'm just trying to show it's not as bad as people are claiming. The difference is PP production.

I would 100% support DD being bumped off PP and having to re-earn his PP icetime.
Problem is I keep seeing Desharnais lagging behind on the against goals on RDS (not that the RDS crew ever mentions it of course). The stats say that DD gets scored on more than any other top 9 minutes forward Habs player. To say DD is doing fine 5on5 is not evidenced by the stats in the least bit.

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03-25-2013, 12:53 AM
  #990
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
Decided to take a look and see if the stats bear, what I am seeing with my eyes, that Deharnais is one of our worse top 9 forwards.

On the hockeyanalysis dot com site I looked at Montreal forwards Goal For% playing more than 275 minutes even strength this year. The resulting lists 9 Habs forwards (see attached).


The Top GF% habs are Prust, the two Gallys and Eller.

The Bottom GF% habs are Gionta, Ryder and dead last by a good margin..... Desharnais!

And for this type of performance he gets rewarded with a 4 year contract by MB?

Attachment 62233
I don't think you know how to attach.

Btw, I once ran numbers like this(fairly simple) a few years ago. Pouliot was our highest GPG player. Not #2, not #3, he was #1. Clearly the habs made a mistake and pouliot is a superstar.

If we're arguing snipers like Ryder and Gionta are less effective offensive players than Prust then I don't know what to say. Granted, prust has shown some nice playmaking skills and been a great addition for us so nothing against him but I guess our 4th line should be Ryder-Desharnais-Gionta. 1st line should have prust, guy needs about 25 mil per game.

It sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Because it is. Statistical 'proof' is highly subjective and not objective.

I don't like when people use stats because they are very easy to play around with and misinterpreted.

By same token, I have also admitted Desharnais superior career FO% rather to Eller may just be chance or randomness.

In addition, a lot of people like to bring up advanced stats. Great. They are still raw statistics. I hope people know that. People use them as 'evidence' when in fact they should be used for 'guidance'

For instance, we've heard Desharnais gets high offensive start % and low Quality of competition.

Sounds a lot like this:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1378779

Ya but it's malkin, here 'evidence stats' don't count! Again, stats should be used as guidance, not the law. It's a pet peeve of mine because they are so easily manipulated. Somehow everyone's a statistician now and a sports analyst. I ask people draw the line and be open to discussion rather than pull out a stat like it's do or die.

In my post just above this, I use stats and know they aren't perfect. I use them as guidance, not as all telling resource.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
Problem is I keep seeing Desharnais lagging behind on the against goals on RDS (not that the RDS crew ever mentions it of course). The stats say that DD gets scored on more than any other top 9 minutes forward Habs player. To say DD is doing fine 5on5 is not evidenced by the stats in the least bit.
True, even if we did TOI/GA I still believe DD would be the highest GA on ES frequency. So I can't deny that, he is undersized and not a defensive guru. Still, if I look at stats from last year he'd be one of the best performers in the aspect. So IMO, he could definitely doing better as far as the stats say but I'm not too concerned. I feel he has more to offer and people are overreacting over a small sample.

For example, I think Desharnais was nearly PPG in last half of the season last year. I have no concerns about his play down the stretch. He's scored vs big teams like boston and I have faith in him.

Can he be better? Absolutely. I just disagree with buyout notions and all that. It's extreme and not even close to the reality.

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03-25-2013, 02:04 AM
  #991
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Lyrical;

Evgeni Malkin does get easier minutes.

And he rewards the penguins with 110 points per 82 games.

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03-25-2013, 04:52 AM
  #992
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Lyrical;

Evgeni Malkin does get easier minutes.

And he rewards the penguins with 110 points per 82 games.
So if DD doesn't score 110 points, he's useless?

I'm pretty satisfied with 60 points per season, personally.

DD might become the most offensively consistant center on the Habs since... Hum let me think... since Pierre Turgeon.

But hey, this fanbase (especially the younger fans) are so used to cheer for an offensively mediocre team that offensive talent has becomed suspect. Depth is not seen as a strenght but as a problem.

By the way, I thought that this "easier minutes" theory had been demolished already in previous posts. DD's line is usually facing one of the best defensive line from the other team, instead of their best offensive line, which is anything but "easy minutes".

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03-25-2013, 05:48 AM
  #993
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Desharnais on pace for 21 goals, 27 assists. Seems like top 9 numbers to me. 20 goal scorer for 3.5 ish seems normal. That's similar to AK's production and cost. Granted DD might be worth a little less on his bad year, like maybe 3 mil. His last year drove up the price but still reasonable.

Quick stat:

Last year Desharnais had 13 ES goals and 27 ES assists.

This year Desharnais is on pace for 18 ES goals and 18 ES assists.

Essentially, 5 goals more and 9 assists less in his 'bad year'.

Granted, stats aren't everything but at ES he's doing fine IMO.

If DD were producing on PP this discussion wouldn't be happening. His offensive output on PP has been underwhelming.

Just to compare, if DD had same PPPTS/GP as last year, he would have 22 Pts(or 21.75 rather) in his 31 games played. Over 81 games(same as last year) that is 58 Pts.

This isn't to illustrate Desharnais is playing perfect and without error. Of course not, it's just to say his ES production is on same pace but the PP production is lacking.

Granted, those who know statistics will point out his output may be luck and he hasn't been as much as an impact player as last year and they'd be right. I'm just trying to show it's not as bad as people are claiming. The difference is PP production.

I would 100% support DD being bumped off PP and having to re-earn his PP icetime.
I dont have time to look up stats but I would like to see how DD goals against was last year compared to this year., maybe it is already in this thread I dont know.
The only gripe I have with DD is that he is killing the PP, look at the buffalo game; Markov found him for the cross seam one timer 2 or 3 times in 30 seconds and he held it and tried to make a pass. Whatever spot he is playing should be occupied by someone who will shoot it. He is going to get the Kaberle treatment soon on the PP if he keeps that up.

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03-25-2013, 05:51 AM
  #994
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People need to get over the quebecois thing. None of our GMs have done this. Back from Gainey sticking to game plan and even Gauthier and now Bergevin. Man, it's stupid, give it a rest. The media and some fans want more francophones but Bergevin let darche go for example. He has no french bias, let it go.
if i were a mod i would ban any mention of this 'french bias' nonsense. and if they don't make me a mod, then they clearly hate french people

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03-25-2013, 06:19 AM
  #995
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
So if DD doesn't score 110 points, he's useless?

I'm pretty satisfied with 60 points per season, personally.

DD might become the most offensively consistant center on the Habs since... Hum let me think... since Pierre Turgeon.

But hey, this fanbase (especially the younger fans) are so used to cheer for an offensively mediocre team that offensive talent has becomed suspect. Depth is not seen as a strenght but as a problem.

By the way, I thought that this "easier minutes" theory had been demolished already in previous posts. DD's line is usually facing one of the best defensive line from the other team, instead of their best offensive line, which is anything but "easy minutes".
Players like Henrik Sedin and Evgeni Malkin are worth structuring the team around because they reward you with 90-120 points.

Those guys get the best linemates, easier opposition, PP minutes and Ozone starts just like DD. However, they give 90-120 minutes, not 55-60 like DD.

105 points is worth structuring the team around, 54 points is not.

Is 55 points useless? Hard to tell, but I'd put my money on "counterproductive". If you are structuring your entire team around the needs of one particular player, the break even point is probably at 70-75 points. If your player is not an elite player, you want to structure him around the team, rather than structuring the team around him.


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03-25-2013, 06:53 AM
  #996
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The problem with DD isn't necessarily that he's terrible defensively in sheltered minutes. It's more that he's horrible when, for some reason, Therrien starts to occasionally play him against offensive lines at moments of games.

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03-25-2013, 06:55 AM
  #997
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Hahaha that's the most messed up logic I've heard in this thread.
Chatting about “logic”... what logic did you use when you voted Desharnais as this team slowest skater?

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03-25-2013, 07:44 AM
  #998
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This thread is basically at the 1,000 post limit so I'm closing it. I don't think there's a need for a Pt. Deux, at least not based on the original topic. If somebody wants a new all-purpose Desharnais thread or something like that, go ahead and make one.

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