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IIHF World Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Olympics and the Worlds- Participiation qualifications

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Old
03-21-2013, 03:59 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Why wouldn't they give two ***** about their national team? They are wearing a jersey that says "Poland" not "Polish-Canadians". They represent Poland, and therefore Poland will support them.
You are a naive idealist if you believe that.

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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
If they were better than the native Italian alternative, then they very clearly helped Italian hockey,
No they did not.

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You mentioned "third rate Canadians" as an alternative to better native Italian players earlier.
I mentioned "third rate Canadians" as an alternative to native Italian players, not better native Italian players.

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03-21-2013, 05:33 PM
  #52
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I think the fact that they picked the team they chose to play for is tangible evidence enough. Why would someone want to play for a country they have no connection to whatsoever?
If Ireland was going to call me to play in the Olympics, I would say yes in a heartbeat, because I would get to go to the Olympics. This despite my only connection to Ireland being a great great grandfather. If you let players pick and choose their national teams then you might as well not have national teams because they would just be club teams with different names.

If I were a cricket fan and the US field a team of guys born and raised in India, with no American parents, but "felt" American enough to play for the US cricket team in the World Cup, I would have zero interest in the US cricket team because it wouldn't be any more American than Alex Ovechkin represents Washington DC hockey culture.

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03-21-2013, 06:45 PM
  #53
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Ya if the only criteria to representing a country is going to be a 'feeling' you may as well just allow countries to bid on players... Anze Kopitar isn't going to win a medal while playing for Slovenia and if there is one thing the US could use it is a centre of truly elite offensive talent... This could work out great for both!!! Speaking of elite centres, Canada has a surplus... Anyone wanna trade a goalie for one of them?

Like I said earlier in the thread it is best for the sport if a country concentrates on developing its own talent, infrastruture and 'culture' instead of just naturalization other nations' lower level talent. Can anyone think of any examples of a country becoming relevant in a sport and the sport becoming relevant in the country when the strategy for 'developing' the sport seemed to include a heavy dependence on 'ringers'?

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03-22-2013, 01:11 AM
  #54
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You are a naive idealist if you believe that.
Nah, I'm a realist. Most people see the name of their country on an athlete's uniform and support them for that reason alone. You think too highly of people if you think they're going to study the national backgrounds of every player on their team before deciding to support said team.


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No they did not.
Right, obviously choosing worse players would have helped Italy way more than having better players. That makes a lot of sense.

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03-22-2013, 01:17 AM
  #55
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If Ireland was going to call me to play in the Olympics, I would say yes in a heartbeat, because I would get to go to the Olympics. This despite my only connection to Ireland being a great great grandfather. If you let players pick and choose their national teams then you might as well not have national teams because they would just be club teams with different names.
Really? I'd be pretty embarrassed if I decided to play for Kuwait when I have no connection to Kuwait whatsoever. Just imagining all my friends/family laughing at the fact that some white American kid who has never even been to Kuwait is playing hockey for them would keep me from doing so. Not to mention I have no interest in playing for Kuwait to begin with anyway, seeing as I have no personal connections to the country.

The Olympics are one thing, but Ireland isn't playing in the Olympics anytime soon, probably ever. If you really had nothing better to do then to go to Ireland to play for them on what is most likely your own dime with your own equipment having to use your vacation time from your job, well then good for you. I don't have a problem with that.

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03-22-2013, 03:38 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Right, obviously choosing worse players would have helped Italy way more than having better players. That makes a lot of sense.
Going with home-grown players would have helped Italian hockey more, yes. I don't think it takes the genius to understand that.

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03-22-2013, 01:13 PM
  #57
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Going with home-grown players would have helped Italian hockey more, yes. I don't think it takes the genius to understand that.
I don't think it takes a genius to understand that better players = better results. Why would having players with a certain national background have won them more games? You said it yourself the Italians aren't as good as the third rate Canadians they went with.

I hope you're not trying to suggest that thousands of kids are going to flock to their local rinks in Italy just because their national team that nobody pays attention to anyway had native Italians on the roster. If anything, they'd be embarrassed by the poor results and would be turned off of hockey for good.

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03-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Really? I'd be pretty embarrassed if I decided to play for Kuwait when I have no connection to Kuwait whatsoever. Just imagining all my friends/family laughing at the fact that some white American kid who has never even been to Kuwait is playing hockey for them would keep me from doing so. Not to mention I have no interest in playing for Kuwait to begin with anyway, seeing as I have no personal connections to the country.

The Olympics are one thing, but Ireland isn't playing in the Olympics anytime soon, probably ever. If you really had nothing better to do then to go to Ireland to play for them on what is most likely your own dime with your own equipment having to use your vacation time from your job, well then good for you. I don't have a problem with that.

... And that's why I feel that guys playing for Italy's baseball team who have as much as a connection as I do to Ireland is silly.

As a US fan I can accept a player like Galchenyuk who committed early and as a international vagabond doesn't really have a firm home. But if say (hypothetically) Martin Brodeur (who is a US citizen) wanted to play for the US because he felt like it, I would be less than enthused.

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03-22-2013, 04:26 PM
  #59
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I don't think it takes a genius to understand that better players = better results. Why would having players with a certain national background have won them more games?
I'm not saying it would have. The games that they won back then with a NA line-up didn't help Italian hockey in the least is what I mean.

You're obviously never going to admit that having a team full of foreigners is detrimental even if it means one more win once every few years. Fortunately people in charge of hockey in France or Britain have understood that and they now have a full home-grown roster. Had they understood it before maybe they would be better than Denmark and Norway by now.


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03-23-2013, 06:14 AM
  #60
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My preference would be that guys had to play for the country where they played most of their hockey as a child, say before they were 18.

I like international teams to represent the development program of that country. It bothered me to see Nedved play for Canada, Hull for the US, Kolzig for Germany, etc.

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03-23-2013, 07:07 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
I don't think it takes a genius to understand that better players = better results. Why would having players with a certain national background have won them more games? You said it yourself the Italians aren't as good as the third rate Canadians they went with.

I hope you're not trying to suggest that thousands of kids are going to flock to their local rinks in Italy just because their national team that nobody pays attention to anyway had native Italians on the roster. If anything, they'd be embarrassed by the poor results and would be turned off of hockey for good.
You are wrong, and the proof is pretty much every single minor to average hockey nation that tried to go that route. What you describe is throwing away the future for a very minor improvement now, and that does hurt the nations more than anything.

The very minor success you can gain by using players from better countries gets you absolutely nothing in your country. You won't win anything with them, you won't get anyone to play hockey because of them, all you do is taking away places your own players should get. Youth development is easily destroyed by this. People don't bother to develop talent anymore, prospects don't gain the icetime they need, get no chance to reach the next level because those spots are filled with foreigners, etc. The only way to improve, is to make sure your players actually see that they have a chance to get somewhere.

Take Germany. The DEL had to get rid of foreigner-limits because of EU-regulations, teams had at times more than 3/4 of all players being non Germans, prospects had zero chance to make it into the league. Once the old generation of players retired, the younger players couldn't replace them. They hardly got icetime, especially on special teams. Plenty of Canadians became German and were used for international games, and the results actually got worse.

At that point, the German-Canadians weren't good enough to get anything done, while no player raised in Germany actually had the skill to score. Then they switched tactics, they lowered the amount of foreigners in the league bit by bit and used less foreign-trained players internationally. The results may not always be much better, but if you look at the stats-leaders in the DEL and the number of NHL-prospects that developed in the last few years, the difference is like night and day. Now we do have Germans who can score as well as the foreigners in the league, plenty of Germans get to play special teams and the overall skill-level is much improved. Heck, we even got a prospect who looks like a possibly top 10 or even top 5 pick for 2014. Things are still far from rosy, we completely botch tournaments now and then, but the players are much improved. They are far better skaters now and have more confidence when it comes to scoring.

There is a very obvious connection between lack of prospect-development and the use of lots of foreign-born player for international games.

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03-23-2013, 02:12 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
My preference would be that guys had to play for the country where they played most of their hockey as a child, say before they were 18.

I like international teams to represent the development program of that country. It bothered me to see Nedved play for Canada, Hull for the US, Kolzig for Germany, etc.

I agree in principle. However I still think one should err to some degree on the side of caution. Alex Galchenyuk for example spent the years pre 18 in

1 Russia
4 Italy
2 Russia
2 Belarus
1 Russia
1 USA
3 Canada


So he spent essentially 4 years in Italy, 4 scattered years in Russia, four years in North America.

Or how about Tomas Vanek who spent six years in the US, having spent more years as a teenager playing in the US than Austria. Should he be denied to play for Austria? I say if there is some grey area, then the choice should be up to the player.

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03-24-2013, 04:33 AM
  #63
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I agree in principle. However I still think one should err to some degree on the side of caution. Alex Galchenyuk for example spent the years pre 18 in

1 Russia
4 Italy
2 Russia
2 Belarus
1 Russia
1 USA
3 Canada


So he spent essentially 4 years in Italy, 4 scattered years in Russia, four years in North America.

Or how about Tomas Vanek who spent six years in the US, having spent more years as a teenager playing in the US than Austria. Should he be denied to play for Austria? I say if there is some grey area, then the choice should be up to the player.
I would still have Vanek play for Austria although I admit the grey areas are a bit harder to judge. Assuming he started playing organized hockey when he was between 4 and 6 yrs old he still had more years of hockey before 18 in Austria than he did in the USA.

Galchenyuk is a bit tougher case since his family moved so much, but despite where he was born I don't like that he plays for the US. Playing only one year of organized hockey in the US as a kid isn't enough for me. If the numbers you provided are accurate I would rather see him play for Russia.

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03-24-2013, 05:01 AM
  #64
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I am fine with IIHF rules when it comes to players who are not born in country they will eventually play for(MacAulay - Croatia, Festerling - Germany), but in case of Tomislav Zanoski (ex-Medvescak player) I find IIHF rules stupid. Zanoski was born in Zagreb, started to play there till the age of 9, when he moved with parents to Canada. Now, as someone who learned how to skate in Croatia, he needs two years in Medvescak in order to be eligbile to play for country where he was born.

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03-24-2013, 10:06 AM
  #65
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I would still have Vanek play for Austria although I admit the grey areas are a bit harder to judge. Assuming he started playing organized hockey when he was between 4 and 6 yrs old he still had more years of hockey before 18 in Austria than he did in the USA.

Galchenyuk is a bit tougher case since his family moved so much, but despite where he was born I don't like that he plays for the US. Playing only one year of organized hockey in the US as a kid isn't enough for me. If the numbers you provided are accurate I would rather see him play for Russia.
The only issue I have is that I feel that the CHL counts as a domestic US league. Yes I realize that it is a Canadian based organization and sponsored by Hockey Canada, but since the OHL and WHL have teams in the US and American players do not count as foreigners, I think it's fine.

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03-24-2013, 10:39 AM
  #66
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The only issue I have is that I feel that the CHL counts as a domestic US league. Yes I realize that it is a Canadian based organization and sponsored by Hockey Canada, but since the OHL and WHL have teams in the US and American players do not count as foreigners, I think it's fine.
Yes, I agree with you there. Maybe I should have made the cut off age a little younger in my method. I wanted to avoid time in leagues like the OHL/WHL/QMJHL, etc from counting.

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03-24-2013, 10:40 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I would still have Vanek play for Austria although I admit the grey areas are a bit harder to judge. Assuming he started playing organized hockey when he was between 4 and 6 yrs old he still had more years of hockey before 18 in Austria than he did in the USA.

Galchenyuk is a bit tougher case since his family moved so much, but despite where he was born I don't like that he plays for the US. Playing only one year of organized hockey in the US as a kid isn't enough for me. If the numbers you provided are accurate I would rather see him play for Russia.
I consider Galchenyuk to be a Russian, but I think if Russians did not have funny names, nobody would notice or care

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03-24-2013, 11:36 AM
  #68
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I dislike the 12 year old age rule simply because players from smaller hockey nations often need to go abroad for a higher level of competition. Random circumstance can also intervene ; parents moving abroad for jobs etc.

You're never going to create a set of rules that will govern this issue to everyone's taste. Much of it comes down to reasonable deduction.

For me, the player should have either grown up in that country for some years (I.e early to mid childhood) or have played in that country for at least two years and have some definitive connection to that country. You can find loopholes to these ideas for sure, but it seems a reasonable foundation to continue from.

So IMO you either need to have had obvious years of childhood there, or have played in that country at some point and have a clear connection to the country (William Nylander for instance).

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03-25-2013, 01:17 AM
  #69
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... And that's why I feel that guys playing for Italy's baseball team who have as much as a connection as I do to Ireland is silly.
Like I said, if someone is willing to sacrifice as much as is necessary to play for Ireland, they are obviously pretty determined to do so. You say your connection is silly, but someone willing to pay their way to Ireland and their living costs while they're there, and for their equipment, is obviously someone who is very determined to play for Ireland and I'm not sure how you could possibly doubt their personal identity with the country.

I don't know what hoops the Italian baseball players have to jump through, but my guess is even if the IIHF didn't restrict anyone's ability to play for any national team, there wouldn't be very many takers to play for a team like Ireland unless they REALLY wanted to.


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As a US fan I can accept a player like Galchenyuk who committed early and as a international vagabond doesn't really have a firm home. But if say (hypothetically) Martin Brodeur (who is a US citizen) wanted to play for the US because he felt like it, I would be less than enthused.
I don't see why not. He's lived most of his life in the U.S. at this point hasn't he? It's just a matter if he identifies more as Canadian or American, which is a personal decision, not one any of us can make for him.

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03-25-2013, 01:20 AM
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I'm not saying it would have. The games that they won back then with a NA line-up didn't help Italian hockey in the least is what I mean.

You're obviously never going to admit that having a team full of foreigners is detrimental even if it means one more win once every few years. Fortunately people in charge of hockey in France or Britain have understood that and they now have a full home-grown roster. Had they understood it before maybe they would be better than Denmark and Norway by now.
No I understand the point you're trying to make. But what I'm wondering is how better native players is going to help France or Britain win more games if they already had better players at their disposal. You're obviously never going to admit that just because the players on the national team roster are native nationals doesn't mean the sport is suddenly going to surge in popularity and those nations will become hockey powers.

Good results do far more for a sport than terrible results by "real" nationals.

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03-25-2013, 02:04 AM
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Yes, I agree with you there. Maybe I should have made the cut off age a little younger in my method. I wanted to avoid time in leagues like the OHL/WHL/QMJHL, etc from counting.
It's pretty tough to get more than 2 years in the CHL before a player is 18. The only reason it's even an issue with a player like Galchenyuk is because he spent such a minimal amount of time in one specific place that those 3 seasons in the CHL and 1 season in the MWEHL look a lot bigger. For example if he had played his entire life in Russia except those years he'd be looking at somewhere near 9 to 10 years of time in Russia and 4 in North America.

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03-25-2013, 02:04 AM
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I consider Galchenyuk to be a Russian, but I think if Russians did not have funny names, nobody would notice or care
Which is funny, because he doesn't.

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03-25-2013, 02:08 AM
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Like I said, if someone is willing to sacrifice as much as is necessary to play for Ireland, they are obviously pretty determined to do so. You say your connection is silly, but someone willing to pay their way to Ireland and their living costs while they're there, and for their equipment, is obviously someone who is very determined to play for Ireland and I'm not sure how you could possibly doubt their personal identity with the country.

I don't know what hoops the Italian baseball players have to jump through, but my guess is even if the IIHF didn't restrict anyone's ability to play for any national team, there wouldn't be very many takers to play for a team like Ireland unless they REALLY wanted to.




I don't see why not. He's lived most of his life in the U.S. at this point hasn't he? It's just a matter if he identifies more as Canadian or American, which is a personal decision, not one any of us can make for him.

Hoops? Half the WBC Italian baseball team essentially consisted of American born and raised players whose only hope to go through was to board a flight to Phoenix from Spring training. That'd be like Ireland (or Norway since they are actually in the tournament) offering me a free ticket to Sochi and saying here's your authentic jersey with your name on it.

Regarding Brodeur, he was a full developed hockey player when he came to the US. He was born and raised in Canada. Not withstanding the fact that he played multiple times for Canada, he has no connection to US hockey. Playing in the NHL for 10 years doesn't make you a part of USA Hockey. I'll grant a pass to a player like Jason Pominville who at least has an American parent, he should be free to choose, but Martin Brodeur's only connection to US hockey is that he moved to the US as an NHL player 15 years ago.

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03-25-2013, 02:10 AM
  #74
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No I understand the point you're trying to make. But what I'm wondering is how better native players is going to help France or Britain win more games if they already had better players at their disposal. You're obviously never going to admit that just because the players on the national team roster are native nationals doesn't mean the sport is suddenly going to surge in popularity and those nations will become hockey powers.

Good results do far more for a sport than terrible results by "real" nationals.
I think it's better for a nation to give home grown players a chance to play in Division 2, thereby helping them get more exposure and better experience, than to simply gather a group of random Canadian players up for a tournament once a year. I think fans, and younger players are going to be much more inspired if they see players from their home towns and clubs making the national team and having a degree of some success rather than seeing players who have little connection to the country showing up for once a year.

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03-25-2013, 03:14 AM
  #75
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Regarding Brodeur, he was a full developed hockey player when he came to the US. He was born and raised in Canada. Not withstanding the fact that he played multiple times for Canada, he has no connection to US hockey. Playing in the NHL for 10 years doesn't make you a part of USA Hockey. I'll grant a pass to a player like Jason Pominville who at least has an American parent, he should be free to choose, but Martin Brodeur's only connection to US hockey is that he moved to the US as an NHL player 15 years ago.
One could argue that living in a country for 15 years is a lot more of a connection than a mere parent.

Though of course Pominville's been living in the US for 10 years himself.

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