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Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"

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Old
03-24-2013, 02:56 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
God ya. Just a glorious age to be a fan, much less a kid growing up with it in the late 50's & 60's. You pretty much knew every player, rosters steady & consistent. Teams playing one another home & away with far greater frequency of course. No helmets, no rink board advertising, no clutter or commercialization really, no names on the backs of jerseys. You knew who guys were by numbers alone.
I hear ya. I grew up on the south side in the 60's listening to Lloyd Pettit & Jack Brickhouse & Jim West (early 70s) doing the Black Hawks games on radio (back when they were the "Black Hawks") and going to every game my dad or uncles would take me to. Did it bother me back then that there were only 6 teams? Heck no; I had mine.

And it was easier to know when the Wings or Habs or Rangers were coming to town who (specific players) were coming. Not only were there fewer goalies and fewer skaters in the league, they didn't move from one team to another as much or at least I don't remember that.

I've always enjoyed hockey, but that didn't prevent me from moving to a city that had no NHL team in the late 70s. I'm glad the Jets moved here; and I'll be sorry to see the Coyotes leave. If they're not here next season, I'll have to buy the Center Ice package so I can watch them on tv. Heck Center Ice for a whole year costs less than I spent going to two games. I might even go back to buying ASU football tickets if they leave; seeing as them leaving will free up about $4000 a year for me.

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03-24-2013, 04:20 PM
  #277
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Oh? You'd be shocked to learn of some the URL & IP addresses that visit this site, board & thread. And Im talkin frequently. From 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW to the North Pole....what'dya make of this long stream of codex M4B; IPXIIXXVhohoho?... huh?
Then we don't need a Reinsdorf then. We need a Thompson, Pegula, Vinik, or a Tarheel.

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Actually, it just so happens that I have an interest in purchasing an NHL franchise. Let's go ahead and draw up some paperwork. I'll get you copies of my tax records just as soon as <abridged>
Sweet. Please send via secured courier, or carrier pigeon. Which ever is your preference. I'll perform the due diligence and get back to you in two wee--, er a fortnight

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Old
03-24-2013, 04:22 PM
  #278
Killion
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I've always enjoyed hockey, but that didn't prevent me from moving to a city that had no NHL team in the late 70s. I'm glad the Jets moved here; and I'll be sorry to see the Coyotes leave. If they're not here next season, I'll have to buy the Center Ice package so I can watch them on tv. Heck Center Ice for a whole year costs less than I spent going to two games. I might even go back to buying ASU football tickets if they leave; seeing as them leaving will free up about $4000 a year for me.
Ya, I feel really badly as I think most do for guys like you, Coyotes fans or not, just general hockey fans in Arizona. Sizeable investments emotionally & financially over the years. Fact is you all deserved & deserve far more respect from this league than what little comfort they have provided. Did absolutely Jack in terms of working with Burke, Gluckstern, Ellman & Moyes in terms of actually developing the market. Enabled the likes of IEH's & Hulsizer to basically just waste everybodys' time with Moon Shots, just on & on. I suppose if the team does leave, most will revert back to their original loyalties, be it Chicago or whoever, maybe follow the Yotes elsewhere, but a ton more just tuning out altogether, lost & disgusted with the NHL.

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03-24-2013, 06:17 PM
  #279
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Oh? You'd be shocked to learn of some the URL & IP addresses that visit this site, board & thread. And Im talkin frequently. From 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW to the North Pole....what'dya make of this long stream of codex M4B; IPXIIXXVhohoho?... huh?
Santa is vacationing in East York?

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03-24-2013, 07:02 PM
  #280
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Santa is vacationing in East York?
Lives there off-season. Kerstman (Dutch=FatherChristmas) res.
Holland Avenue. Victoria Park above St. Clair East. IP&PC=M4B.


Last edited by Killion: 03-24-2013 at 07:11 PM.
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03-24-2013, 11:38 PM
  #281
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Ya, I feel really badly as I think most do for guys like you, Coyotes fans or not, just general hockey fans in Arizona. Sizeable investments emotionally & financially over the years. Fact is you all deserved & deserve far more respect from this league than what little comfort they have provided. Did absolutely Jack in terms of working with Burke, Gluckstern, Ellman & Moyes in terms of actually developing the market. Enabled the likes of IEH's & Hulsizer to basically just waste everybodys' time with Moon Shots, just on & on. I suppose if the team does leave, most will revert back to their original loyalties, be it Chicago or whoever, maybe follow the Yotes elsewhere, but a ton more just tuning out altogether, lost & disgusted with the NHL.
I agree with you - the reactions will be varied.

I'll still root for the Yotes wherever they are. I'm sure not everyone who has season tickets will say that. In years the Yotes did not make the playoffs, I rooted for the Hawks. And I cheered for them when they won the Cup in '10. But last season, I relished our beating them in the playoffs. I'd say it's like my son being in a league with his cousin on a competing team in the league. I want them both to succeed, but when they play each other, I root for my son's team to win, everytime. That's not going to change for me, either.

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03-25-2013, 12:14 AM
  #282
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I agree with you - the reactions will be varied. I'll still root for the Yotes wherever they are. I'm sure not everyone who has season tickets will say that. In years the Yotes did not make the playoffs, I rooted for the Hawks. And I cheered for them when they won the Cup in '10. But last season, I relished our beating them in the playoffs. I'd say it's like my son being in a league with his cousin on a competing team in the league. I want them both to succeed, but when they play each other, I root for my son's team to win, everytime. That's not going to change for me, either.
Yes, I know what your saying. I too grew up in an 06 market & during the waning years of the 06 era when the Leafs were actually winning, had pride. Montreal & Chicago as well of course, Detroit more or less running on fumes, New York inconsistent, Boston terminal cellar-dwellers pre-Orr's arrival but still, fans with long vested multi-generational ties & loyalties to the clubs.

I too moved a lot, winding up in BC over 20yrs ago, slowly adopting the Canucks to the point where its like watching a league with 2 boys in it on separate teams. Wanting both to do well, cheering whichever whenever, split down the middle when they play one another. If Vancouver were to leave the market, I certainly wouldnt follow them, can pretty much guarantee it though highly unlikely of course, short of an earthquake, Mount Baker blowing her stack or whatever... which could happen actually, like tomorrow.... anyhoo, simply revert to exclusive Leafs support forevermore and that would be that.

But for the younger generations, those who havent known anything else but say the Nucks or Yotes, and gone like that, ripped asunder like Atlanta etc, potential loss of fans for life. If the NHL doesnt care about me, my city, my team, why should I care about the NHL? You'd simply feel betrayed, as the fans in Hartford, Quebec, Winnipeg & elsewhere did & still do and for good reason as none of it was necessary, problems solved if the NHL'd just buy a clue instead of a one way ticket out of town.


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03-25-2013, 02:11 AM
  #283
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Yes, I know what your saying. I too grew up in an 06 market & during the waning years of the 06 era when the Leafs were actually winning,
There are few people alive today that can recall when the Leafs were actually winning.


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03-25-2013, 02:34 AM
  #284
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There are few people alive today that can recall when the Leafs were actually winning.
Very true. This guy barely
starting Kindergarten in 67....


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03-25-2013, 08:12 AM
  #285
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I hear ya. I grew up on the south side in the 60's listening to Lloyd Pettit & Jack Brickhouse & Jim West (early 70s) doing the Black Hawks games on radio (back when they were the "Black Hawks") and going to every game my dad or uncles would take me to. Did it bother me back then that there were only 6 teams? Heck no; I had mine.

And it was easier to know when the Wings or Habs or Rangers were coming to town who (specific players) were coming. Not only were there fewer goalies and fewer skaters in the league, they didn't move from one team to another as much or at least I don't remember that.

I've always enjoyed hockey, but that didn't prevent me from moving to a city that had no NHL team in the late 70s. I'm glad the Jets moved here; and I'll be sorry to see the Coyotes leave. If they're not here next season, I'll have to buy the Center Ice package so I can watch them on tv. Heck Center Ice for a whole year costs less than I spent going to two games. I might even go back to buying ASU football tickets if they leave; seeing as them leaving will free up about $4000 a year for me.
This is exactly why the nhl doesn't work in saturated, non traditional American markets. The concept that there is only so much sports entertainment dollar to go around. Yotesreign, like most people, only has a certain amount of money (and time) to devote to sports. The Coyotes are his first choice, but he's in the extreme minority. In the saturated, non traditional American markets, nhl hockey is unquestionably the lowest ring on the totem pole for most people.

Seattle is no different. Throw in the fact that the nhl team in Seattle would be a tenant of the NBA team, and not share in any ancillary arena revenues, then you can see why a potential Seattle nhl team would realistically have no chance of being economically viable.

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03-25-2013, 08:21 AM
  #286
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This is exactly why the nhl doesn't work in saturated, non traditional American markets. The concept that there is only so much sports entertainment dollar to go around. Yotesreign, like most people, only has a certain amount of money (and time) to devote to sports. The Coyotes are his first choice, but he's in the extreme minority. In the saturated, non traditional American markets, nhl hockey is unquestionably the lowest ring on the totem pole for most people.

Seattle is no different. Throw in the fact that the nhl team in Seattle would be a tenant of the NBA team, and not share in any ancillary arena revenues, then you can see why a potential Seattle nhl team would realistically have no chance of being economically viable.
I keep bringing this up, but wasn't there a list about a year ago ranking NHL teams by gate revenue... NYR was the only U.S. team in the top seven, and probably the top eight too, because the list was using the Atlanta numbers rather than the Winnipeg numbers. Granted that's just gate revenues, but it showed that Canadian markets have no trouble at all competing when the Canadian dollar is strong.

So in other words, people act like Seattle is unquestionably a superior market for the league than QC or Hamilton, but other than being desirable from a U.S. TV deal standpoint I don't see it.

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Old
03-25-2013, 10:12 AM
  #287
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I keep bringing this up, but wasn't there a list about a year ago ranking NHL teams by gate revenue... NYR was the only U.S. team in the top seven, and probably the top eight too, because the list was using the Atlanta numbers rather than the Winnipeg numbers. Granted that's just gate revenues, but it showed that Canadian markets have no trouble at all competing when the Canadian dollar is strong.

So in other words, people act like Seattle is unquestionably a superior market for the league than QC or Hamilton, but other than being desirable from a U.S. TV deal standpoint I don't see it.
Don't mean to turn this into a Seattle thread but I agree, Seattle is closer to being Phoenix then alot of people like to imagine. The Canucks being close will help, but when you truly map it out, the NHL will be the lowest rung again if the NBA came back.

(In no order)
-Seahawks football
-Mariners baseball
-Sonics basketball
-Sounders soccer
-Huskies football in renovated stadium

I honestly think Seattle NHL will fall below all of those sports, yes even the the MLS.

It's why I prefer markets like Portland or Columbus.

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Old
03-25-2013, 10:16 AM
  #288
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Also, if I were a Coyotes fan, I would turn to supporting grassroots hockey like the ACHA Sun Devils.

It's a shame D1 hockey wasn't more widespread. Would it be feasible to toss $2 million a year as a donation to ASU to subsidize a D1 hockey program?

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03-25-2013, 10:44 AM
  #289
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Don`t look now but the Coyotes are in serious danger of competing for the basement in the WC! A long fall from grace when they lost to LA in the WFC a year ago. THose who have contended all along that the AZ market can work usually failed to factor in seasons like this one where on-ice ineptitude leads to sparser crowds and lower gate receipts. Should the team finish out of the p/o`s and the NHL determines to remain for a final lame duck year it could be catastrophic! All said, the NHL, GB and the BOG deserve all that is bad and may be on its way!

K, HHH and the long slogging bus rides with Scotty Larue to the rink! I recall having to put all of the kids in the back of the bus for traction to get out of camp on the steep sections! Who can ever forget the "the Bird" and Jim Gregory! No I wasn`t the kid you nearly drowned!!

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03-25-2013, 11:27 AM
  #290
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Don`t look now but the Coyotes are in serious danger of competing for the basement in the WC! A long fall from grace when they lost to LA in the WFC a year ago. THose who have contended all along that the AZ market can work usually failed to factor in seasons like this one where on-ice ineptitude leads to sparser crowds and lower gate receipts. Should the team finish out of the p/o`s and the NHL determines to remain for a final lame duck year it could be catastrophic! All said, the NHL, GB and the BOG deserve all that is bad and may be on its way!

K, HHH and the long slogging bus rides with Scotty Larue to the rink! I recall having to put all of the kids in the back of the bus for traction to get out of camp on the steep sections! Who can ever forget the "the Bird" and Jim Gregory! No I wasn`t the kid you nearly drowned!!
That's quite the cliff to fall off from last year to this. Decisions are going to have to be made this offseason, both on and off the ice. If no buyer can be found, does the NHL indeed play one more season with them footing the bills? I can't imagine the BoG would be enthusiatic about that. I would think the only way they get convinced is if they are assured of some sort of-well, what's been discussed ad nausem-involving fees. Plus how can you sell the hockey to the fans with them knowing it's the last year-if indeed all other possiblities are exhausted. Sounds like one way or another, the NHL is going to have to make a decision either way.

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03-25-2013, 11:38 AM
  #291
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This is exactly why the nhl doesn't work in saturated, non traditional American markets. The concept that there is only so much sports entertainment dollar to go around. Yotesreign, like most people, only has a certain amount of money (and time) to devote to sports. The Coyotes are his first choice, but he's in the extreme minority. In the saturated, non traditional American markets, nhl hockey is unquestionably the lowest ring on the totem pole for most people.

Seattle is no different. Throw in the fact that the nhl team in Seattle would be a tenant of the NBA team, and not share in any ancillary arena revenues, then you can see why a potential Seattle nhl team would realistically have no chance of being economically viable.
I agree with this comment 100% As a hockey fan, I feel hockey is the greatest sport around. But in US markets that are saturated with more "traditional" US sports, hockey has a difficult time and no doubt in my mind hockey will not thrive in Seattle, as compared to what a team would do in QC.

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03-25-2013, 11:39 AM
  #292
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Coyotes out of the playoffs might indeed force the NHL's hand. Playoff revenue is nothing to sneeze at.

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03-25-2013, 11:44 AM
  #293
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Just me, but this ends now.

Granted the NHL doesn't have a nice cushy landing spot like Winnipeg gave them for the Thrashers ( in having an ideal facility in place ), but even if you have to play in a sub-NHL-standard facility for a year or two... those optics are still better than having the NHL own this team for a 4th year. How can the NHL ever hope to be taking seriously and move up the sports food-chain ladder if they look like they can't do anything right by continuing to own this team.

At this point, it doesn't really matter where they end up if they are moving, just end it for once and for all.

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03-25-2013, 11:55 AM
  #294
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Besides everything else, it seems that Tippett and Maloney are not going to re-sign until they know what the future holds.

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11. Another coaching/management decision being watched closely is in Phoenix, where Maloney, head coach Dave Tippett and their staffs are unsigned after this season. It's believed the league was more than willing to extend them, but they want to know the future of the organization before committing. http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...e-rumours.html
As has been noted before, beyond everything else, this long term of ownership by the NHL is undermining the very foundations of the franchise. It is a tribute to the remarkable managerial and coaching performance of Maloney and Tippett that the team has been as competitive as it has for the past few years. But a team in limbo with a payroll near the bottom can't maintain on-ice performance for very long. The NHL has created an absolute travesty.


Last edited by Whileee: 03-25-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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03-25-2013, 12:05 PM
  #295
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Besides everything else, it seems that Tippett and Maloney are not going to re-sign until they know what the future holds. As has been noted before, beyond everything else, this long term of ownership by the NHL is undermining the very foundations of the franchise. It is a tribute to the remarkable managerial and coaching performance of Maloney and Tippett that the team has been as competitive as it has for the past few years. But a team in limbo with a payroll near the bottom can't maintain on-ice performance for very long. The NHL has created an absolute travesty.
Agreed. They pretty much want an answer, and I don't know if "we're working on it" is enough for them. Thinking they want to see someone buy the team-either to keep the team or relocate-before making a decision. They probably have had some very quiet people from other teams behind the scenes very informally suggest that opportunities could be there should things fall apart. You keep your options open, and that's what they're doing. The team doesn't make the playoffs, that hurts season ticket sales (if the team is even going to be there), which in turn hurts the bottom line for all involved, plus management saying "you tell us definitively where we're playing before we talk contract", and the NHL is has to make some decisions. I only hope that the NHL, once reg season is over, if Yotes miss playoffs, say once one and for all what's happening-as CBC says-"just end it".

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03-25-2013, 12:07 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by goyotes View Post
I agree with this comment 100% As a hockey fan, I feel hockey is the greatest sport around. But in US markets that are saturated with more "traditional" US sports, hockey has a difficult time and no doubt in my mind hockey will not thrive in Seattle, as compared to what a team would do in QC.
Not at all trying to be confrontational...but could you please name some US markets that are "saturated" with more "traditional" US sports where hockey is having a difficult time?

Referencing the attendance numbers posted on espn.com: http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/sort/homePct

Of the top 10 teams in the U.S. for attendance (Chicago, Minnesota, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Nashville, Boston, Detroit, & San Jose), all but BUF, NSH, and SJ have all 4 major sports represented in their city. Buffalo has football as well, and San Jose is only 49 minutes from San Francisco, where the other sports are well represented.

All of those teams are averaging 100% capacity per game. Some are over 100%. It does not appear, even a little, that these teams are suffering from being in markets where other major leagues are firmly entrenched.

I'm of the opinion that the only time teams truly suffer in a sports market with a ton of options is when there are some teams in the region that are succeeding while others are faltering. Except for the diehards...no one likes to throw their money at a losing effort. Everyone wants a winner.

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03-25-2013, 12:30 PM
  #297
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Not at all trying to be confrontational...but could you please name some US markets that are "saturated" with more "traditional" US sports where hockey is having a difficult time?
How about Atlanta?

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03-25-2013, 12:36 PM
  #298
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Besides everything else, it seems that Tippett and Maloney are not going to re-sign until they know what the future holds.



As has been noted before, beyond everything else, this long term of ownership by the NHL is undermining the very foundations of the franchise. It is a tribute to the remarkable managerial and coaching performance of Maloney and Tippett that the team has been as competitive as it has for the past few years. But a team in limbo with a payroll near the bottom can't maintain on-ice performance for very long. The NHL has created an absolute travesty.
Rest assured there will be many teams interested in signing one or both! They may even have enough leverage and goodwill to pull off a deal where you take both of us or none at all! It is obvious that they compliment each other very nicely! But what GM is going to approach if his job may be in jeopardy with maloney in the mix? One thing is certain, PHX w/o this pair is in a world of hurt!

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03-25-2013, 12:45 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
Not at all trying to be confrontational...but could you please name some US markets that are "saturated" with more "traditional" US sports where hockey is having a difficult time?

Referencing the attendance numbers posted on espn.com: http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/sort/homePct

Of the top 10 teams in the U.S. for attendance (Chicago, Minnesota, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Nashville, Boston, Detroit, & San Jose), all but BUF, NSH, and SJ have all 4 major sports represented in their city. Buffalo has football as well, and San Jose is only 49 minutes from San Francisco, where the other sports are well represented.

All of those teams are averaging 100% capacity per game. Some are over 100%. It does not appear, even a little, that these teams are suffering from being in markets where other major leagues are firmly entrenched.

I'm of the opinion that the only time teams truly suffer in a sports market with a ton of options is when there are some teams in the region that are succeeding while others are faltering. Except for the diehards...no one likes to throw their money at a losing effort. Everyone wants a winner.
Phoenix, Dallas, Anahiem, Colorado, NJ Devils, NY Islanders and Miami. My point was that the NHL is traditionally in last place of the four major sports. No doubt many cities with all four major sports can ice a hockey team that sells out its barn. But the NHL is usually the team with the least room for error. Heck, there was a year or two when the Coyotes out drew the Hawks and the Bruins when those teams were especially bad. Having a competitive NBA team puts more stress on the local NHL team unless the NHL team is doing well.

For all their problems, the Coyotes have more sellouts this year than the Suns, and no one would question Phoenix has established itself as a strong NBA city over the years.

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03-25-2013, 12:47 PM
  #300
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K, HHH and the long slogging bus rides with Scotty Larue to the rink! I recall having to put all of the kids in the back of the bus for traction to get out of camp on the steep sections! Who can ever forget the "the Bird" and Jim Gregory! No I wasn`t the kid you nearly drowned!!
Scotty Larue. Holy Mackinaw! I remember that guy and his Dad. Scotty a decent player. The old man owning & Coaching the like Junior 'D' Haliburton franchise. Who even knew Junior hockey plumbed such depths of the alphabet?! Like the Hooterville Hawks or somethin; Alf & Ralph Monroe on D', Hank Kimball. Eb Dawson in the crease. Floyd Smoot & Homer Bedloe up-front. The Right Dishonourable Mr. Eustace Haney behind the bench. Still have my Report Card from Ed Chadwick actually... and no, just because the Yote's could well fall Leafian levels, I wouldnt expect crowds to thin. I mean, look what theyve' been through already & you've got an uptick. But thats the problem with these Left Wing Lock & NZ Trap teams. Unless their consistently playing as units, absolute collapse. The NHL wants parity, which is just code for here today, gone tomorrow. Cant keep teams together, be you Chicago or Phoenix. Entire models a complete farce.


Last edited by Killion: 03-25-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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