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Old
03-24-2013, 11:31 PM
  #1
The Bob Cole
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Alain Vigneault/Coaching Discussion Repository - Part V

So this is where we give props to AV for coaching the team to 6-2-0 in the past 8 games despite a horrific injury bug spread across the lineup, right? Or am I doing this wrong.

Part 4: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1371677


Good adjustment on placing Higgins with the Sedin's though. Seemed to have jump-started his game. He looked dangerous and active out there. Hopefully it carries on.

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03-24-2013, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by The Stovepipe Cup View Post
So this is where we give props to AV for coaching the team to 6-2-0 in the past 8 games despite a horrific injury bug, right? Or am I doing this wrong.
Are you kidding me? AV lost 2 games because he was clearly outcoached. Fire AV and hire Boucher, Guy Boucher.

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03-24-2013, 11:48 PM
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Part V already?

We've come a long way, guys!

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03-25-2013, 12:24 AM
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Part V already?

We've come a long way, guys!
Part (A)V?

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03-25-2013, 12:29 AM
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Part (A)V?

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03-25-2013, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by The Stovepipe Cup View Post
So this is where we give props to AV for coaching the team to 6-2-0 in the past 8 games despite a horrific injury bug spread across the lineup, right? Or am I doing this wrong.
Well, I think you will find most people agree that he's finally done what everyone wanted him to do:

1) Put Garrison back on the point on the PP,
2) put Schroeder in with skilled linemates, particularly Raymond, and
3) put Garrison on the RS...he did it and it seems our RHD/LHD problem is solved.

Which has resulted in our PP coming back to life and us having a 2nd line again. Why he was wasting time with other things is a real question since those moves were obvious to almost everyone here.

Also, Schneider's been playing out of his mind to get us our wins, with the exception of the COL win and we've been out-chanced badly which really isn't good coaching.

As a fan, I'm very happy for the wins but as a guy who thinks AV gets outcoached regularly in the playoffs, I hope that the recent wins doesn't stop management from evaluating the job our coach is doing.

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03-25-2013, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Well, I think you will find most people agree that he's finally done what everyone wanted him to do:

1) Put Garrison back on the point on the PP,
2) put Schroeder in with skilled linemates, particularly Raymond, and
3) put Garrison on the RS...he did it and it seems our RHD/LHD problem is solved.

Which has resulted in our PP coming back to life and us having a 2nd line again. Why he was wasting time with other things is a real question since those moves were obvious to almost everyone here.

Also, Schneider's been playing out of his mind to get us our wins, with the exception of the COL win and we've been out-chanced badly which really isn't good coaching.

As a fan, I'm very happy for the wins but as a guy who thinks AV gets outcoached regularly in the playoffs, I hope that the recent wins doesn't stop management from evaluating the job our coach is doing.
Are you suggesting that a collective group of almost everyone here would be able to coach as good as AV??

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03-25-2013, 01:01 AM
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Are you suggesting that a collective group of almost everyone here would be able to coach as good as AV??
Not at all.

I'm suggesting that several of the "major" recent coaching moves which have been viewed as big improvements strategically have been suggested around here ad nauseum.

The fact that it was obvious to so many fans must mean that they were also obvious to AV and his coaching staff...AV has a reputation for being stubborn and unwilling to adjust his strategies instead telling/having faith in his players to get things done. The fact that he didn't make the "obvious" adjustments until after we had a major losing streak and threw away a large division lead is evidence of that.

AV's patience is often an asset in the regular season because the players know what to expect however an unwillingness to make strategic changes on the fly are a huge negative in the playoffs where a two or three game losing streak means your season is pretty much done.

Also, you can't argue with empirical evidence, apparently no coach tenured as long as AV has ever won the Cup for the first time with his team...I don't pretend to know why, but why fight empirical evidence when there are great alternatives available.

Found this article when looking up AV's reputation for being stubborn. It's interesting:
http://canucksarmy.com/2013/3/11/the...lain-vigneault

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03-25-2013, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Not at all.

I'm suggesting that several of the "major" recent coaching moves which have been viewed as big improvements strategically have been suggested around here ad nauseum.

The fact that it was obvious to so many fans must mean that they were also obvious to AV and his coaching staff...AV has a reputation for being stubborn and unwilling to adjust his strategies instead telling/having faith in his players to get things done. The fact that he didn't make the "obvious" adjustments until after we had a major losing streak and threw away a large division lead is evidence of that.

AV's patience is often an asset in the regular season because the players know what to expect however an unwillingness to make strategic changes on the fly are a huge negative in the playoffs where a two or three game losing streak means your season is pretty much done.

Also, you can't argue with empirical evidence, apparently no coach tenured as long as AV has ever won the Cup for the first time with his team...I don't pretend to know why, but why fight empirical evidence when there are great alternatives available.

Found this article when looking up AV's reputation for being stubborn. It's interesting:
http://canucksarmy.com/2013/3/11/the...lain-vigneault
I do agree with most of that, AV will get his chance to prove the stubbornness bit wrong though.

As for the bolded bit, one could make a case that when looking at sports as a whole, there are people, athletes and coaches, doing things for the first time, all over the place. that could also be used as empirical evidence.

One question I do have for people saying that we should get a new coach now, I am genuinely interested, what do they think the outcome for the rest of the season would be if we were to change the coach tomorrow?? since people are predicting an early exit with AV, how far do the same people predict we go this year with a new coach??

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03-25-2013, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Well, I think you will find most people agree that he's finally done what everyone wanted him to do:

1) Put Garrison back on the point on the PP,
2) put Schroeder in with skilled linemates, particularly Raymond, and
3) put Garrison on the RS...he did it and it seems our RHD/LHD problem is solved.

Which has resulted in our PP coming back to life and us having a 2nd line again. Why he was wasting time with other things is a real question since those moves were obvious to almost everyone here.

Also, Schneider's been playing out of his mind to get us our wins, with the exception of the COL win and we've been out-chanced badly which really isn't good coaching.

As a fan, I'm very happy for the wins but as a guy who thinks AV gets outcoached regularly in the playoffs, I hope that the recent wins doesn't stop management from evaluating the job our coach is doing.

It just takes him far too long to make the correct adjustments. he always has to stumble around with these asinine decisions that leave us all scratching our heads.. when it doesnt work he goes with the logical decision that we all wanted in the first place. so ****ing frustrating.

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03-25-2013, 01:23 AM
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Of course he deserves some credit, but it's the same old story: lights out goaltending and 2006-2007 defense oriented game results in ugly wins.

Again, it comes down to:

-It takes him too long to make adjustments. He often tries things that work (Lappy on 1st line when Dank was hurt), and then inexplicably never goes back to them. Or anything that DJOpus referred to in his post.

-Taking too long to make adjustments can be ok in terms of winning in the regular season. But I'd argue that not only does it fail to prepare the team for the playoffs, but that it's a fatal weakness during the playoffs.

-The last stretch of games makes you wonder if he's ever going to be a coach who can handle a high-powered team as opposed to 1.5 good lines and a bunch of grinders.

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03-25-2013, 01:46 AM
  #12
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Just tossing some numbers out here:

Goals For per Game
2005-2006 Regular Season: 2.65 (22nd)
2005-2006 Playoffs: DNQ (OTT 1st @ 3.60, CAR/EDM 5th/6th @ 2.92)

2006-2007 Regular Season: 2.65 (22nd)
2006-2007 Playoffs: 1.75 (14th - NYR/OTT 1st @ 3.00/2.95)

2007-2008 Regular Season: 2.52 (22nd)
2007-2008 Playoffs: DNQ (DET/PIT - 1st/4th @ 3.27/3.05)

2008-2009 Regular Season: 2.96 (11th)
2008-2009 Playoffs: 3.00 (5th - DET/PIT 1st @ 3.30)

2009-2010 Regular Season: 3.27 (2nd)
2009-2010 Playoffs: 3.58 (1st - CHI/PHI 3rd/4th @ 3.54/3.30)

2010-2011 Regular Season: 3.15 (1st)
2010-2011 Playoffs: 2.32 (14th - LA/ANA 1st at 3.33, BOS 4th @ 3.24)

2011-2012 Regular Season: 2.94 (5th)
2011-2012 Playoffs: 1.60 (15th - PHI/PIT 1st at 3.73/4.33, LAK/NJ 3rd/4th @ 2.85/2.45)

2012-2013 Regular Season: 2.62 (16th)

Interesting results.

-With the notable exception of 2008-2009 and 2009-2010, there's a major decrease in our offensive output once we reach the playoffs.

-Every Cup winner AND Finalist besides us and NJD last year have averaged roughly 3 GF/G.

IMO this matches my memory. In 2006 we were just doing the whole trap thing and we couldn't score - we also ran into some hot goalies on that run. 2008-2010 was the beginning of the 'open it up' mandate and the beginning of the system as we know it today. We maintained our scoring into the playoffs and lost some barnburner games.

In 2010-2011, and rightly so, we tightened it up for the playoffs. But we were very lucky to get the goaltending required to make it to the 7th game especially since teams like Boston were outscoring us by almost 50%. Last year we went in even tighter, the game had regressed, we were without Daniel and ended up facing a goalie starting an epic run so not surprising.

Of course that could just be my own internal narrative but I'm sure we'll all have a great time debating this.

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03-25-2013, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Of course he deserves some credit, but it's the same old story: lights out goaltending and 2006-2007 defense oriented game results in ugly wins.

Again, it comes down to:

-It takes him too long to make adjustments. He often tries things that work (Lappy on 1st line when Dank was hurt), and then inexplicably never goes back to them. Or anything that DJOpus referred to in his post.

-Taking too long to make adjustments can be ok in terms of winning in the regular season. But I'd argue that not only does it fail to prepare the team for the playoffs, but that it's a fatal weakness during the playoffs.

-The last stretch of games makes you wonder if he's ever going to be a coach who can handle a high-powered team as opposed to 1.5 good lines and a bunch of grinders.


So I see what you and others here are saying...when players play well and the Canucks win, the coach should not any credit.

I get it.

So coaches should only get credit when they are coaching a group of retarded midgets with the swine flu against a group of NHL All-Stars and manage to eke out a victory.

But when the millionaire athletes finally decide to get their act together, the coach has nothing to do with it.

That sounds like hero-worshipping Canuck fans who are in love with their players and scoff at any coach who actually challenges them or punishes them when they...well...fail to do their jobs.

I can't believe how many fans calling for AV's head (you know, the kind that have always called for his head, except kept their silence during the cup final run) fail to recognize the fact that this season, Michael D. Gillis as he is calling himself these days, knew that he would be without Ryan Kesler for quite some time with 3 surgeries in two offseasons, and knew that Manny Malhotra's eye was somewhere between Bryan Berard and Stevie Wonder.

He also knew he had two goalies with a combined cap hit of over 9 million, with only 1 net. He then decided he didn't need a centre and said "Here you go Alain, Andrew Ebbett, Max Lapierre, Jordan Schroeder, now bring me a cup by beating Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Filpulla, Toews-Shaw-Bolland, Kopitar-Richards-Stoll, Thornton-Couture-Pavelski, etc."

This season, despite the inflated view some of us have of this roster and its depth, AV has been asked to take a fat girl and make her into Miss Universe, and now fans want to fire him because she may have trouble in the swimsuit competition.

You can't win in this league without centres.

That was always the trouble with the Canucks in the early 90s...Pat Quinn's famous "riddle in the middle." He eventually had to move Trevor Linden from Right Wing to centre. After Igor Larionov left, it was Ronning, Linden and...Anatoli Semenov, Murray Craven, Tom Fergus, John McIntyre, Jimmy Carson, Mike Sillinger, Jesse Belanger, Jim Dowd, Mike Ridley, Josef Beranek and Christian Ruutu.


They also had a guy named Mike Peca...but much like Schroeder now, and Henrik Sedin and Ryan Kesler back in the Bertuzzi/Naslund era, he just wasn't quite ready yet.

So considering AV is FORCED (by the limitations of his roster) to use career AHLers, and guys who are not quite the players they will be one day, along with players who have to play out of position and in roles they are best not suited to, I think he's squeezing performance out of this group.

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03-25-2013, 02:25 AM
  #14
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Scoring in the playoffs is much different than in the regular season. 3 major factors:

1 - you are playing, for the most part, much better teams in the playoffs.

2 - Harder to score because the reffing lets lots more go in the playoffs, therefore you can get away with crap defensively that you can't during the regular season.

3 - if you only play 1 (or maybe 2) rounds, the numbers can be skewed by a single lopsided score. One game can dramatically change your GF/GA stats.

In a somewhat different direction, for example, Luongo's goals against in the 2011 playoffs on games we won was probably 1/3 of the GA in games we lost.

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03-25-2013, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Not at all.

I'm suggesting that several of the "major" recent coaching moves which have been viewed as big improvements strategically have been suggested around here ad nauseum.

The fact that it was obvious to so many fans must mean that they were also obvious to AV and his coaching staff...AV has a reputation for being stubborn and unwilling to adjust his strategies instead telling/having faith in his players to get things done. The fact that he didn't make the "obvious" adjustments until after we had a major losing streak and threw away a large division lead is evidence of that.

AV's patience is often an asset in the regular season because the players know what to expect however an unwillingness to make strategic changes on the fly are a huge negative in the playoffs where a two or three game losing streak means your season is pretty much done.

Also, you can't argue with empirical evidence, apparently no coach tenured as long as AV has ever won the Cup for the first time with his team...I don't pretend to know why, but why fight empirical evidence when there are great alternatives available.

Found this article when looking up AV's reputation for being stubborn. It's interesting:
http://canucksarmy.com/2013/3/11/the...lain-vigneault
For me it is and has always been his in game adjustments, and his default to overly defensive hockey. Don't get me wrong it is good to play a solid defense, and even better to play great defensively. But sometimes with who he puts out, and even with who, it seems he is happier to not get scored on then to tie the game, or win it. For an example see the one I have pointed out over and over again in part IV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
I do agree with most of that, AV will get his chance to prove the stubbornness bit wrong though.

As for the bolded bit, one could make a case that when looking at sports as a whole, there are people, athletes and coaches, doing things for the first time, all over the place. that could also be used as empirical evidence.

One question I do have for people saying that we should get a new coach now, I am genuinely interested, what do they think the outcome for the rest of the season would be if we were to change the coach tomorrow?? since people are predicting an early exit with AV, how far do the same people predict we go this year with a new coach??
I think it depends on the coach we get, and if they are the right fit. I could see us going on a long run, we really aren't that much different a team from the 11 team. But we could just as easily be bounced in the first round. some may also have to do with injuries as well.

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03-25-2013, 08:43 AM
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Well, I think you will find most people agree that he's finally done what everyone wanted him to do
As if HFboards has any predictive validity

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03-25-2013, 09:27 AM
  #17
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I don't really understand the people whose opinion of coaching changes due to wins and losses over a short period of time. It was obvious from the previous ten games that the Canucks would even out at some point (they were getting unlucky), just as it was obvious they'd take a step back after a lucky start to the season.

My issues with AV are how slow he is to adjust (20 games to figure out that Garrison on the 1st unit instead is a good idea?) and his penchant for reverting to low event hockey in the post-season whether it's beneficial or not.

The thing is, I've seen a few people say before (pitseleh on here, Jonathan Wills, etc.) that the difference between a great coach and a good coach is maybe 12 goals over a season, or about a win differential of 2 games. Some people might put it up towards 20-25 goals and 3-4 wins over a season. I do think AV would fall into the upper tier of "good" coaches, so that's not much to choose from.

I happen to think there might be something to the notion that after a certain number of years, a new voice might help "teach" the players a new approach, or may make a psychological impact. But that's impossible to qualify, or know, because A) not many coaches last that long, and B) roster turnover after a coaching change and dozens of other variables make it nigh impossible to draw meaningful conclusions. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence to support it (see recent comments by Bruce Boudreau), but who knows.

For me, though, it's undeniable that AV reverts to low event hockey in the post-season, even though in recent seasons the Canucks are not a team that need to play that style. But no matter what anyone thinks, there's no way he doesn't get the rest of the season to take another run at it.


Last edited by Proto: 03-25-2013 at 09:34 AM.
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03-25-2013, 09:50 AM
  #18
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From Friedman's 30 Thoughts, on Guy Boucher:

Quote:
7. Accuracy Award: Two weeks ago, I wrote that I thought head coach Guy Boucher would survive the season in Tampa Bay because Lightning GM Steve Yzerman recognized the goaltending wasn't good enough (good call on that one.) I still think that was his plan and he didn't want to make a change now. What happened? It sounds like he and Boucher disagreed on how to adjust to the netminding problems. Boucher's system had defensive risk; Yzerman wanted more caution. Falling behind 4-0 to both the Toronto Maple Leafs and Ottawa Senators ended debate.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...e-rumours.html
I'm not sure if that says something good or bad about Boucher (maybe he was just tired of Yzerman not giving him anything to work with), but he'd be someone I'd look at in Vancouver if AV is let go.

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03-25-2013, 11:16 AM
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From Friedman's 30 Thoughts, on Guy Boucher:



I'm not sure if that says something good or bad about Boucher (maybe he was just tired of Yzerman not giving him anything to work with), but he'd be someone I'd look at in Vancouver if AV is let go.
Really? So the coach who had TB doing the 1-3-1 no forecheck crap is the guy you want to replace AV with? A guy who had a dman standing 30 feet in front of his own net while the puck was stationary and deep in the oppositions zone and no opposition player within 100 feet. Careful for what you wish for.

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03-25-2013, 11:20 AM
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Really? So the coach who had TB doing the 1-3-1 no forecheck crap is the guy you want to replace AV with? A guy who had a dman standing 30 feet in front of his own net while the puck was stationary and deep in the oppositions zone and no opposition player within 100 feet. Careful for what you wish for.
They use the 1-3-1 a few times a game at most, usually when they're ahead or when they're clearly outmatched. Part of the reason for 1-3-1 was how slow the Tampa D were at the time.

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03-25-2013, 11:25 AM
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They use the 1-3-1 a few times a game at most, usually when they're ahead or when they're clearly outmatched. Part of the reason for 1-3-1 was how slow the Tampa D were at the time.
Standing a dman 30 feet in front of your net, lining 3 guys up at your blue line and one guy at centre.... man that team must have been really slow. People are *****ing around here about a coach who reverts to a d posture (like most coaches) when they have a lead and the solution is a coach who thought of that?!?!? Heck TB wasn't even in the lead when they were doing crap like that. Meh... Grass is always greener.

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03-25-2013, 11:33 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
I do agree with most of that, AV will get his chance to prove the stubbornness bit wrong though.

As for the bolded bit, one could make a case that when looking at sports as a whole, there are people, athletes and coaches, doing things for the first time, all over the place. that could also be used as empirical evidence.

One question I do have for people saying that we should get a new coach now, I am genuinely interested, what do they think the outcome for the rest of the season would be if we were to change the coach tomorrow?? since people are predicting an early exit with AV, how far do the same people predict we go this year with a new coach??
i see it as a big gamble. there are a few examples of a new coach being brought in mid-to-late-season and the team going on a big run and winning the cup (sutter last year, bylsma in pittsburgh, and farther back larry robinson in NJ though robinson and that team were familiar with one another from a previous stint). but there's probably an 75% or higher chance that it'll fail miserably.

i guess the question is, how small is the chance that AV can get it done this year? if that chance is smaller than the chance of a new guy prospering, however small that second chance might be, then i'd say do it. texas hold'em logic, so to speak.

personally, i think the chances of us contending with AV this year (or any subsequent year, barring a major change in his coaching style, philosophy, and methodology) is so miniscule that i'd roll the dice with a new guy.

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03-25-2013, 11:33 AM
  #23
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Standing a dman 30 feet in front of your net, lining 3 guys up at your blue line and one guy at centre.... man that team must have been really slow. People are *****ing around here about a coach who reverts to a d posture (like most coaches) when they have a lead and the solution is a coach who thought of that?!?!? Heck TB wasn't even in the lead when they were doing crap like that. Meh... Grass is always greener.
That or the blueline was crap.

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03-25-2013, 11:35 AM
  #24
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That or the blueline was crap.
Both. He had a very weak squad and adjusted to hide their weaknesses as best he could. It's not like Boucher = 1-3-1 and I doubt we'd ever see it here if he were to coach Vancouver.

I'm still hoping for Yzerman to hire Ruff and Gillis can pick between Guy and Coop' in June/July.

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03-25-2013, 11:40 AM
  #25
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Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie
Not reading too much into this one way or the other, but Jon Cooper is currently on the ice running Syracuse Crunch practice.

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