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David Desharnais - Black or White Edition

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03-25-2013, 01:23 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
AG takes DD's place on the second offensive line and Eller keeps his place on the 2nd shutdown line. Simple.
As a center? Why would a standard of poor faceoff ability be a center then? Eller is a good player but FO isn't his strength either.

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03-25-2013, 01:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
yup

but I'm 100% sure Pyatt was the LW and DD playing centre.
You're right. Pyatt/White took no signifiant numbers of faceoff in those games.

He still played against the Bruins a bit

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03-25-2013, 01:29 PM
  #53
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As a center? Why would a standard of poor faceoff ability be a center then? Eller is a good player but FO isn't his strength either.
But playing defense is.

Plekanec isnt super good on faceoff either. Galchenyuk(so far) isnt either.

Should we go with Halpern, White, Dumont and Nokelainen ?

And I think we can safely assume that Eller is the better man at faceoffs.

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03-25-2013, 01:37 PM
  #54
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But playing defense is.

Plekanec isnt super good on faceoff either. Galchenyuk(so far) isnt either.

Should we go with Halpern, White, Dumont and Nokelainen ?

And I think we can safely assume that Eller is the better man at faceoffs.
Halpern>>Eller,DD and even Plekanec on FO.

I'd argue based on career stats DD is better than Eller at faceoffs(equal or better).

So, I don't get it. I'm purposely going in this circle with you. I'm hoping you get the message.

Eller has easily earned a top 9 role on the team. He can play shutdown, he can be a support offensive player and all that, but why C? If his FO ability is less than ideal, why SHUTDOWN C? Why get Halpern when Eller can take those all important faceoffs? There's a reason.

Eller can play defense on wing and Desharnais can play offensive on wing too. At end of the day though, given our options, DD is the better faceoff man based on career. Still....that isn't saying much. That's why we needed a guy like Halpern. I honestly wouldn't mind a better shutdown guy. We can use a Kelly type of player. He has 60.6%. hard to argue those results.

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03-25-2013, 01:46 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Halpern>>Eller,DD and even Plekanec on FO.

I'd argue based on career stats DD is better than Eller at faceoffs(equal or better).

So, I don't get it. I'm purposely going in this circle with you. I'm hoping you get the message.

Eller has easily earned a top 9 role on the team. He can play shutdown, he can be a support offensive player and all that, but why C? If his FO ability is less than ideal, why SHUTDOWN C? Why get Halpern when Eller can take those all important faceoffs? There's a reason.

Eller can play defense on wing and Desharnais can play offensive on wing too. At end of the day though, given our options, DD is the better faceoff man based on career. Still....that isn't saying much. That's why we needed a guy like Halpern. I honestly wouldn't mind a better shutdown guy. We can use a Kelly type of player. He has 60.6%. hard to argue those results.
We have the better shutdown guy. He's also our better offensive guy.

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03-25-2013, 01:51 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
yup

but I'm 100% sure Pyatt was the LW and DD playing centre.
And you're 100% right. The only time he ever played wing for, what, 75% of a period in the playoffs. He was awesome for that period, but he generally played well that whole playoffs in limited minutes. Can't really judge off 15 minutes - and it's pointless to experiment while we are in 2nd in the Conference. We need to clinch our division, not sorry about trying DD on the wing so our future C can move.

I'm not even sold that Galchenyuk will be a centre in MTL. Sure that was the plan at the start of the year, but things change. He's been awful at faceoffs at the NHL level too. Makes Eller and Desharnais look like Bergeron.

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03-25-2013, 01:54 PM
  #57
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We have the better shutdown guy. He's also our better offensive guy.
Plekanec? Yah, absolutely.

Ever seen Boston's stats. BEASTLY. wow. Just saw how dominant they are.

With guys like DD, Eller, Plekanec and others being average we prob spend a lot of time chasing the play. Probably why a slower team like boston still maintains strong puck possession.

They have 57% for the team. It's impressive. I hate them, but damn.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...=realTimeStats

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

61.8%, 60.6%, 59.6%, 56%.

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03-25-2013, 01:54 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
We have the better shutdown guy. He's also our better offensive guy.
Honest question.

Would you trade Desharnais for Colton Orr, Jared Boll, or George Parros?

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03-25-2013, 01:58 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Honest question.

Would you trade Desharnais for Colton Orr, Jared Boll, or George Parros?
Honest question.
Are you for real?

Did I ever mention that DD was ECHL caliber?

He's not the best we need for what he his doing. That's it.

Theres nothing else to read into my comments.

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03-25-2013, 02:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Honest question.
Are you for real?

Did I ever mention that DD was ECHL caliber?

He's not the best we need for what he his doing. That's it.

Theres nothing else to read into my comments.
My bad, mixed you up with someone else.

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03-25-2013, 02:18 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
They have 57% for the team. It's impressive. I hate them, but damn.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...=realTimeStats

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

61.8%, 60.6%, 59.6%, 56%.
That's....filthy. Instant possession dominance.

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03-25-2013, 02:24 PM
  #62
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My bad, mixed you up with someone else.
Seriously Mrb1p, thebinne4pres, Ginu, waffledave, Habs Junkie... are all sounding the same to me: don’t feel sorry!

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03-25-2013, 02:32 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Plekanec? Yah, absolutely.

Ever seen Boston's stats. BEASTLY. wow. Just saw how dominant they are.

With guys like DD, Eller, Plekanec and others being average we prob spend a lot of time chasing the play. Probably why a slower team like boston still maintains strong puck possession.

They have 57% for the team. It's impressive. I hate them, but damn.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...=realTimeStats

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

61.8%, 60.6%, 59.6%, 56%.
The connection between faceoffs and puck possession is much overstated. Habs are at par with Boston on puck possession with mediocre faceoffs compared to the faceoff dominant Bruins.

Puck possession battles after the faceoffs are far more important than the faceoffs themselves because the gaps in faceoff talent are small and they are relatively rare events.


Which gets to why you want Eller as a shutdown center. He's not great on faceoffs, but that is actually a fairly minor talent. His play after the faceoff amply compensates.

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03-25-2013, 02:38 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The connection between faceoffs and puck possession is much overstated. Habs are at par with Boston on puck possession with mediocre faceoffs compared to the faceoff dominant Bruins.

Puck possession battles after the faceoffs are far more important than the faceoffs themselves because the gaps in faceoff talent are small and they are relatively rare events.


Which gets to why you want Eller as a shutdown center. He's not great on faceoffs, but that is actually a fairly minor talent. His play after the faceoff amply compensates.
Guy Carbonneau, one of the best shutdown C who ever play the game, once mentioned that if you want to thrive as a NHL shutdown C, you better be good in the FO circle.

Do you disagree with him?

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03-25-2013, 02:38 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The connection between faceoffs and puck possession is much overstated. Habs are at par with Boston on puck possession with mediocre faceoffs compared to the faceoff dominant Bruins.

Puck possession battles after the faceoffs are far more important than the faceoffs themselves because the gaps in faceoff talent are small and they are relatively rare events.


Which gets to why you want Eller as a shutdown center. He's not great on faceoffs, but that is actually a fairly minor talent. His play after the faceoff amply compensates.
I disagree. Habs have a better forecheck and faster forwards. We can't dismiss that. Certainly getting the start with the puck does not mean you end with it or dominate the play but it is a clear advantage offensively and defensively.

I was merely going into circles on purpose with the poster. He mentioned FO as some reason why DD should be a center, then I asked about Eller to see if it no longer matters. It does, any way you slice it, it does. However, as you put it, some things can be overlooked if the player brings other elements to the table such as Eller. In an ideal world however, based on the ramblings of DD's weakness at a dot(which is better than Eller) neither is a center.

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03-25-2013, 02:40 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Guy Carbonneau, one of the best shutdown C who ever play the game, once mentioned that if you want to thrive as a NHL shutdown C, you better be good in the FO circle.

Do you disagree with him?
Carbo was one of the best shutdown Cs who ever played the game, but he was also a terrible 5 on 5 coach...so I don't think disagreeing with him is that crazy. Asking Carbo about puck possession is like asking Milbury about trades.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I disagree. Habs have a better forecheck and faster forwards. We can't dismiss that. Certainly getting the start with the puck does not mean you end with it or dominate the play but it is a clear advantage offensively and defensively.

I was merely going into circles on purpose with the poster. He mentioned FO as some reason why DD should be a center, then I asked about Eller to see if it no longer matters. It does, any way you slice it, it does. However, as you put it, some things can be overlooked if the player brings other elements to the table such as Eller. In an ideal world however, based on the ramblings of DD's weakness at a dot(which is better than Eller) neither is a center.
I think Talk to Goalposts point is that faceoffs is just one way to win the puck, and while it certainly helps efficiency, a FO specialist like Steckel or Konopka is not better for possession than an above average possession player who is mediocre at faceoffs, like Eller. Obviously a Bergeron who wins faceoffs and every other puck battle out there is worth his weight in gold, but ~50% on faceoffs isn't going to hurt you if the player has other value.

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03-25-2013, 02:53 PM
  #67
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Carbo was one of the best shutdown Cs who ever played the game, but he was also a terrible 5 on 5 coach...so I don't think disagreeing with him is that crazy. Asking Carbo about puck possession is like asking Milbury about trades.

(...)
Carbonneau won the Frank J. Selke Trophy in 1988, 1989 and 1992, and his record as a NHL coach is 124-83-23. In terms of shutdown C, he qualifies as an expert.

Again, and as Carbonneau mentioned: if you want to thrive as a NHL shutdown C, you better be good in the FO circle.

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03-25-2013, 02:54 PM
  #68
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Carbonneau won the Frank J. Selke Trophy in 1988, 1989 and 1992, and his record as a NHL coach is 124-83-23. In terms of shutdown C, he qualified as an expert.

Again: if you want to thrive as a NHL shutdown C, you better be good in the FO circle.
That was one of many things Carbo was good at.

True, FOs is one of the reasons Plekanec will never win the Selke, but there is a point for stating they are somewhat overrated.

But Carbo is still not the guy I'd go to for advice on how to build a puck possession dominant team.

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03-25-2013, 02:55 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I disagree. Habs have a better forecheck and faster forwards. We can't dismiss that. Certainly getting the start with the puck does not mean you end with it or dominate the play but it is a clear advantage offensively and defensively.

I was merely going into circles on purpose with the poster. He mentioned FO as some reason why DD should be a center, then I asked about Eller to see if it no longer matters. It does, any way you slice it, it does. However, as you put it, some things can be overlooked if the player brings other elements to the table such as Eller. In an ideal world however, based on the ramblings of DD's weakness at a dot(which is better than Eller) neither is a center.
A faceoff win is a massive advantage for typically about 10 seconds of play because it gives puck possession for that time. This advantage suffers heavy attrition after this fact. Faceoffs simply are too infrequent for it to be a dominant skill when considering a player, its simply a small part of a large toolbox.

Bergeron gains a small advantage from his faceoff skills, but things like his neutral zone play and zone entry dominance are much bigger factors in why he's a two-way force. You need to consider the player in toto rather than fetishizing a minor skill. Its not that faceoff skills have no effect, but they aren't dominant factors and shouldn't heavily dictate who play at center unless the skills are far from the mean.

But you are completely correct that faceoff skill isn't a reason to favour Desharnais over Eller. If there is a difference there it is an effectively meaningless one.

It's Eller's efficiency at controlling the center of the ice, playing as the "3rd defenseman" in the D-zone and exceptional transition play skills are why you want him at center.

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03-25-2013, 03:00 PM
  #70
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That was one of many things Carbo was good at.

True, FOs is one of the reasons Plekanec will never win the Selke, but there is a point for stating they are somewhat overrated.

But Carbo is still not the guy I'd go to for advice on how to build a puck possession dominant team.
Yeah well I wish we can ice 3. Gainey - Carbonneau - Nilan again.

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03-25-2013, 03:02 PM
  #71
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Yeah well I wish we can ice 3. Gainey - Carbonneau - Nilan again.
Me too.

As long as they stay on the ice and not in the management office.

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03-25-2013, 03:06 PM
  #72
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That was one of many things Carbo was good at.

True, FOs is one of the reasons Plekanec will never win the Selke, but there is a point for stating they are somewhat overrated.

But Carbo is still not the guy I'd go to for advice on how to build a puck possession dominant team.
Unless its to do the exact opposite of what he says. Huge trend for players to become better at puck possession as they got away from his coaching.


A lot of the mispreception of the value of faceoffs is in saying stuff like it allows you to always start with control of the puck. It actually means you start with the puck about 1 in 20 times more than you would, which is scarcely noticeable.

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03-25-2013, 03:06 PM
  #73
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Me too.

As long as they stay on the ice and not in the management office.
That said... why are you acting as if Carbonneau was clueless in regard of what is required to be a good NHL shutdown C?

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03-25-2013, 03:13 PM
  #74
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Unless its to do the exact opposite of what he says. Huge trend for players to become better at puck possession as they got away from his coaching.

(...)
So Carbonneau, as a head coach, did not have a 124-83-23 record?
Pure luck eh?

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03-25-2013, 03:19 PM
  #75
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So Carbonneau, as a head coach, did not have a 124-83-23 record?
Pure luck eh?
No, his teams were brilliant on special teams. If he wanted to talk about how to coach that people should listen.

Its actually quite amazing how good they were at everything but puck possession, where they were brutal.

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