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The Attraction of Hockey Fights

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03-08-2013, 12:00 PM
  #1
cam042686
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The Attraction of Hockey Fights

In regard to fighting in North American junior and professional hockey, I will be totally up-front here. I don’t like it nor do I “get it.” I have never understood the attraction that some (not all) people find in it. The fact that some people enjoy fighting in hockey is evident just in the fact that there is a whole section of this web page dedicated to fighting. I can’t deny there is an attraction to it.

Here are some questions hockey fans relating to fighting.

I. Why did we see it develop as something tolerated in some levels of North American hockey and not in Europe? What makes the hockey fan in North America intrinsically different from those in Europe?

II. Fighting is against the rules everywhere. Why then do we see entire web pages, videos, etc that embrace fighting and yet we don’t see the same for say boarding, slashing, spearing, etc – which like fighting are also against the rules?

III. I am not going to question your morality, ethics, etc. but tell me – what is it about fighting that you find attractive? I really don’t get. The last NHL game I went to live was in the late 90’s and Tie Domi punched a Chicago player in the head during a fight and the Black Hawk dropped – he was out cold. MLG grew very quiet and Domi looked scared. I walked out – I didn’t want to be in the company of people who found such activities enjoyable. That tells you a bit about who I am and how I think and what my values are. I have never been back and until the NHL throws players out for fighting I won’t be back – nor will I watch it on TV. But that is me – my personal choice and values. But again – what is exciting or attractive about fist fighting in hockey?

IV. To add to the last question – would you stand and cheer say two men you saw fighting on the street? If not why not if you would do so in a hockey rink?

Thanks,


Craig Wallace

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03-08-2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cam042686 View Post

IV. To add to the last question – would you stand and cheer say two men you saw fighting on the street? If not why not if you would do so in a hockey rink?
of course. i would aslo break it up if one guy was seemingly getting destroyed. of course i've seen several guys [including myself] make a great comeback when they seemingly getting seriously hurt. and i've seen some people who were dwarfed kick the snot out of bigger guys [happened to me as well]

humans r nothing more than the most advanced form of animal, a hybrid of simians and xtra terrestials. u must have more to the ancient alien in u that u have simian genes

i do hate uneven odds. i got hammered a bunch of times by being outnumbered and i'll always help a guy getting wolfpacked.

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03-08-2013, 12:46 PM
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As a zebra, I can say that a fight (which is a rare occurrence this season for "my team") can certainly bring a huge boost to the rink, and both teams...

You have a 1-2/2-3 etc hockey game, and a guy starts a fight... Honestly, the rink gets so much louder and the fans get into the game a lot more than they were before...

I'm not one to advocate fighting however no sensation on the ice gives me quite the buzz of seeing two guys go toe to toe...

With regards to the whole NA/EU style of fighting, over here a fight is a 2+2 for roughing (With additional penalties on top where necessary).

With regards to your second statement, I feel that is more because "fighting" as a whole is more acceptable e.g. MMA, Boxing, Wrestling etc however that may be wrong?

With regards to number 3, I don't find it "attractive" as such however as mentioned above, it does give me quite the buzz.

And finally, No. No I wouldn't. Heck, I'm the first guy to jump into a fight at clubs etc (Usually because I've just done a game myself, and I've had enough of these kids thinking they're all big shots beating each other up)

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03-08-2013, 01:58 PM
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of course. i would aslo break it up if one guy was seemingly getting destroyed. of course i've seen several guys [including myself] make a great comeback when they seemingly getting seriously hurt. and i've seen some people who were dwarfed kick the snot out of bigger guys [happened to me as well]

humans r nothing more than the most advanced form of animal, a hybrid of simians and xtra terrestials. u must have more to the ancient alien in u that u have simian genes

i do hate uneven odds. i got hammered a bunch of times by being outnumbered and i'll always help a guy getting wolfpacked.
This is essentially all you need to know to answer the questions. We are animals with base desires and reactions, it's just some try to remove themselves from their animal nature and sugarcoat things. Almost every person who has ever told me they are against fighting, when I ask them if they stand during a fight, they say "yes". That alone should tell you just how much animal nature drives us.

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03-08-2013, 09:00 PM
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From a former fighter in Juniors in Canada, I will weigh in.

I fought more than 80 times in 3 years, and usually heavyweight scraps....and I can tell you that it is one of the best feelings in the world to be invovled in.

I played a regular shift, but fighting was part of my game and I loved doing it. Every time I won, the team was on their feet, stands were wild (at home and away) and the game would usually get back to fast and great hockey rather than chippy etc...

I know it is a team sport with seperate individuals, but a hockey team functions as one with every player bringing something to the table. This means when the "enforcer" goes out there and fights, wins then the entire team plays a bit bigger, less fear and now can get in the other teams head.

I for one will likely not watch many games if they ever take fighting out of the NHL and Junior levels. The NHL would be dumb to let that happen as well, as they have lost major ground in popularity in the states. The UFC is one of the most popular sports and the NHL would lose that style of crowd if they banned fighting.

If you have never played in a league with fighting I do not believe you can have an educated opinion on fighting.

And as far as fighting ruining players later on in life, depression and brain issues, this is why the NHL has a great Insurance Policy and they make millions of dollars to fight. I'd give my left nut to drop the mitts in the show....

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03-09-2013, 10:35 AM
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I. Contemporary culture of violence in NA more than in Europe.

II & III. The NHL has shrewdly folded the forbidden (bare-knuckle boxing, illegal in most NA jurisdictions) into a mainstream product (hockey). It's as if *wild metaphor warning* a TV news team featured a young weather girl with prodigious pokies and regular wardrobe malfunctions. Ratings would rise, not due the quality of her forecasts but rather the attraction of the forbidden.

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03-09-2013, 10:59 AM
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cam042686
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Originally Posted by oldunclehue View Post
From a former fighter in Juniors in Canada, I will weigh in.

I fought more than 80 times in 3 years, and usually heavyweight scraps....and I can tell you that it is one of the best feelings in the world to be invovled in.

I played a regular shift, but fighting was part of my game and I loved doing it. Every time I won, the team was on their feet, stands were wild (at home and away) and the game would usually get back to fast and great hockey rather than chippy etc...

I know it is a team sport with seperate individuals, but a hockey team functions as one with every player bringing something to the table. This means when the "enforcer" goes out there and fights, wins then the entire team plays a bit bigger, less fear and now can get in the other teams head.

I for one will likely not watch many games if they ever take fighting out of the NHL and Junior levels. The NHL would be dumb to let that happen as well, as they have lost major ground in popularity in the states. The UFC is one of the most popular sports and the NHL would lose that style of crowd if they banned fighting.

If you have never played in a league with fighting I do not believe you can have an educated opinion on fighting.

And as far as fighting ruining players later on in life, depression and brain issues, this is why the NHL has a great Insurance Policy and they make millions of dollars to fight. I'd give my left nut to drop the mitts in the show....
I don't deny your right to have an opinion and as someone who obviously has engaged in fighting at a high level I respect what you are saying and where you are coming from.

Having said that I spoke to several former Soviet hockey players for my book on the 74 summit. Are you really saying that even though they played hockey at the very highest level possible (Olympics, Summits, etc) they can't have an educated opinion on fighting just because their leagues severely punished players who engaged in it? If so I would really struggle accepting that. I mean I read Vladislav Tretiak's two books - are you really saying that his written opinion on fighting isn't valid because he didn't play regularly in the WHA or NHL or Major Junior? Or the opposite - how do you respond to such people as Harry Sinden, Ken Dryden, Ander Hedberg, etc who did and do not support fighting?

Craig Wallace

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03-10-2013, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by cam042686 View Post
I don't deny your right to have an opinion and as someone who obviously has engaged in fighting at a high level I respect what you are saying and where you are coming from.

Having said that I spoke to several former Soviet hockey players for my book on the 74 summit. Are you really saying that even though they played hockey at the very highest level possible (Olympics, Summits, etc) they can't have an educated opinion on fighting just because their leagues severely punished players who engaged in it? If so I would really struggle accepting that. I mean I read Vladislav Tretiak's two books - are you really saying that his written opinion on fighting isn't valid because he didn't play regularly in the WHA or NHL or Major Junior? Or the opposite - how do you respond to such people as Harry Sinden, Ken Dryden, Ander Hedberg, etc who did and do not support fighting?

Craig Wallace

I think you will ultimately find many people who support both sides of the spectrum. But we as fans/players and authors in your case have to realize that at the NHL level it is no longer just a sport. It is a money making machine, and in todays day and age the major sports have to compete for the attention of fans across the board. And fighting will always bring certain fans, attract new ones and keep the old ones who enjoy it around.

No one likes seeing someone injured from a fight, but same with a hit, puck in the face etc etc.....but it is an exciting part of the game, as the posts above say, we do still have some animal instinct in humans, and fight or flight still exists in our bodies.

It doesn't matter what I say, because you don't like the fighting aspect of the sport, but the sport doesn't actually matter as much as it used to, its the action that draws the fans that matters. And fighting right now still gets people standing up and cheering.....

Went to a WHL game tonight, heard 3 people say "oh I hope we see some fights"....so I think people still enjoy that part of it, even if they say they don't.

And if you don't like the fighting...as they say in "FUBAR" the movie...

"I suggest you try a new sport.........like knitting"

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03-10-2013, 03:13 AM
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Damn it Trognitz stole the animal thing from what I said in JLP's topic about fighting.

You thief


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03-10-2013, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cam042686 View Post
I. Why did we see it develop as something tolerated in some levels of North American hockey and not in Europe? What makes the hockey fan in North America intrinsically different from those in Europe?
In my age demographic it has not something that has developed, it's always been there. It's been in this game a LONG time. To explain how it's different in NA vs America, i think you used the appropriate term, it's tolerated here in NA. Also, if you watch hockey in Europe it's becoming more predominant now.

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II. Fighting is against the rules everywhere. Why then do we see entire web pages, videos, etc that embrace fighting and yet we don’t see the same for say boarding, slashing, spearing, etc – which like fighting are also against the rules?
Some people just enjoy fighting. Look at how well UFC is doing. I don't care for the staged fighting but I'm all for being accountable after someone tries to 'hurt' one of my team mates.

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Originally Posted by cam042686 View Post
III. I am not going to question your morality, ethics, etc. but tell me – what is it about fighting that you find attractive? I really don’t get. The last NHL game I went to live was in the late 90’s and Tie Domi punched a Chicago player in the head during a fight and the Black Hawk dropped – he was out cold. MLG grew very quiet and Domi looked scared. I walked out – I didn’t want to be in the company of people who found such activities enjoyable. That tells you a bit about who I am and how I think and what my values are. I have never been back and until the NHL throws players out for fighting I won’t be back – nor will I watch it on TV. But that is me – my personal choice and values. But again – what is exciting or attractive about fist fighting in hockey?
I am not a fan of 'sucker punches' or 'staged fights' I also don't care for the idea of a tough guy fighting another tough guy because an unrelated player hit a skilled player, I think the idea is senseless. I believe the stages fights need to be eliminated and instigator needs to be at referee discretion. I don't want to see people mugged or sucker punched, however, if I'm going to run around and go after knees/heads or swing my stick I should be held responsible for my actions by someone who is involved. Again, the idea of some 6'10 goon that can't skate taking care of some other 6'10 goon is insane and solves NOTHING. I also believe in team toughness and being able to stick up for yourself, if you're going to try and hurt me, I should be able to challenge you where you have the opportunity to defend yourself, something you may not have offered me when you ran at my head/knees.

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IV. To add to the last question – would you stand and cheer say two men you saw fighting on the street? If not why not if you would do so in a hockey rink?
I would not cheer a regular street or bar fight, no. I would however, happily watch a bully get fed. If you start it, you should finish it IMO. In relation to hockey, if someone like Datsyuk hits someone questionably, I would give the benefit of the doubt, but a Lucic, Orr, Marchand-type they should and would stand up for their actions. Just my opinion.

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03-10-2013, 01:23 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by cam042686 View Post
I don't deny your right to have an opinion and as someone who obviously has engaged in fighting at a high level I respect what you are saying and where you are coming from.

Having said that I spoke to several former Soviet hockey players for my book on the 74 summit. Are you really saying that even though they played hockey at the very highest level possible (Olympics, Summits, etc) they can't have an educated opinion on fighting just because their leagues severely punished players who engaged in it? If so I would really struggle accepting that. I mean I read Vladislav Tretiak's two books - are you really saying that his written opinion on fighting isn't valid because he didn't play regularly in the WHA or NHL or Major Junior? Or the opposite - how do you respond to such people as Harry Sinden, Ken Dryden, Ander Hedberg, etc who did and do not support fighting?

Craig Wallace
They can have an educated opinion on it but it will be the vast minority. I live in a democracy and am frankly tired of the notion of changing things to suit the minority. I and many of my family have over the years signed our lives on the line to support the notion of majority rules. Again, if the players decide they do no want it, then fine. Until such time, they are consenting adults who know the dangers. The argument that "you can have a good game (like the Olympics) without any fights" being used to support the notion it should be eliminated holds no sway for me. If someone gives me a sundae, I'll enjoy it just fine. I'd also enjoy it with hot fudge. The fact that hot fudge is not necessary for me to enjoy it should not be reason for people to ban hot fudge. I might enjoy it MORE with that option added in.

For the record, I have many years as a boxer and boxing coach and have fought professionals, national team members and such.

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03-11-2013, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by oldunclehue View Post
I think you will ultimately find many people who support both sides of the spectrum. But we as fans/players and authors in your case have to realize that at the NHL level it is no longer just a sport. It is a money making machine, and in todays day and age the major sports have to compete for the attention of fans across the board. And fighting will always bring certain fans, attract new ones and keep the old ones who enjoy it around.

No one likes seeing someone injured from a fight, but same with a hit, puck in the face etc etc.....but it is an exciting part of the game, as the posts above say, we do still have some animal instinct in humans, and fight or flight still exists in our bodies.

It doesn't matter what I say, because you don't like the fighting aspect of the sport, but the sport doesn't actually matter as much as it used to, its the action that draws the fans that matters. And fighting right now still gets people standing up and cheering.....

Went to a WHL game tonight, heard 3 people say "oh I hope we see some fights"....so I think people still enjoy that part of it, even if they say they don't.

And if you don't like the fighting...as they say in "FUBAR" the movie...

"I suggest you try a new sport.........like knitting"
I didn't insult anyone with my note nor did I personalize things. I tried to raise a difficult subject like a "gentleman." Could you have not have responded in kind and skipped the "knitting" comment?

Craig Wallace

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03-11-2013, 07:47 AM
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I didn't insult anyone with my note nor did I personalize things. I tried to raise a difficult subject like a "gentleman." Could you have not have responded in kind and skipped the "knitting" comment?

Craig Wallace
There are literally hundreds of threads about the " necessity" of fighting in hfboards. You can read them instead of rehashing the same arguments over and over and over.

Fighting exists because the players overwhelmingly support it. Full stop. Making analogies about " bare knuckle fighting" or asking questions like why the players aren't charged for assault, or why can't the NHL be more like sport x,y,or z is a monumental waste of time. The NHL is not those leagues, and it is a league that has always had fights and will continue this way as long as the players want it.

As soon as people drop the self-indulgent belief that the players will and more than a centurymof history should be subservient to their own personalized vision of the game, things would go so much smoother, but I'm not holding my breath.

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03-12-2013, 06:26 PM
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I. Why did we see it develop as something tolerated in some levels of North American hockey and not in Europe? What makes the hockey fan in North America intrinsically different from those in Europe?
Those are two different questions.

The answer to question #1 would require a comparative analysis of the socioeconomic background, as well as the cultural norms in their respective cultures of players in 1880s, which nobody's about to do here. It might be that Irish immigrants to Canada were among the league's first players and had, within their own communities, developed a sense that grievances could only be settled in a just manner outside the proper, legal channels. But I'm not gonna do a research paper on this just now, sorry.

Question number 2 is a bogus question based on a false assumption on your part. The only high level pro team in the sport that is successful marketing itself as a bunch of brawlers is in the KHL, not in the NHL. Also, the only top-level bench clearing brawls I've seen in about a decade have been in either Russia or Finland.


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II. Fighting is against the rules everywhere. Why then do we see entire web pages, videos, etc that embrace fighting and yet we don’t see the same for say boarding, slashing, spearing, etc – which like fighting are also against the rules?
For the same reason Zuffa can fill an arena with an MMA match, but nobody would buy tickets to a suckerpunching contest. Human beings like face to face "fair" violent confrontations. It's evolutionary. We get an adrenaline rush watching battle. A bigger one participating in it. It's how we determine power on the most basic, lizard-brained level. If we didn't work like this, we never would have mastered our environment and would have died out back in the caves.


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III. I am not going to question your morality, ethics, etc. but tell me – what is it about fighting that you find attractive? I really don’t get. The last NHL game I went to live was in the late 90’s and Tie Domi punched a Chicago player in the head during a fight and the Black Hawk dropped – he was out cold. MLG grew very quiet and Domi looked scared. I walked out – I didn’t want to be in the company of people who found such activities enjoyable. That tells you a bit about who I am and how I think and what my values are. I have never been back and until the NHL throws players out for fighting I won’t be back – nor will I watch it on TV. But that is me – my personal choice and values. But again – what is exciting or attractive about fist fighting in hockey?
This tells me only that you're perfectly happy to put your head in the sand. There's a lot of violence in hockey. If you found violence morally repugnant, you wouldn't watch hockey period until it was ALL removed.

Far more players have had their lives changed from "legal" checks than have ever had that happen from fighting. But you're not objecting to violence in hockey. You're objecting to "fighting." Fighting is violence without any pretenses. So you're saying that violence is okay with you as long as you can pretend it's not violence.

This is like only eating meat made from animals that were raised in luxury and calling it "humane," then decrying anybody who has any old ham sandwich. If you're eating meat at all, the animal died violently, squealing and writhing in pain as its life was snuffed out. Different people accept this, ignore this, reject meat for this reason. Rejecting meat could be seen as the conscionable choice. Ignoring the violence involved in the slaughter of livestock and eating it anyway, while looking down on the group that admits it's brutal, is an exercise in denial, not an exercise of conscience, but you would like to pretend otherwise, which is a seriously deluded place to put yourself.


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IV. To add to the last question – would you stand and cheer say two men you saw fighting on the street? If not why not if you would do so in a hockey rink?
No, because that's not in a controlled environment. Escalation is an unknown and there's little to stop it from spilling over from spectator to participant. There's bodily risk to the viewer so he or she needs to put that priority ahead of all others.

However, below all that, a lot of people would want to. Alcohol lowers social inhibitions and the muddies the self-preservation instinct. If you've never seen people cheer two strangers fighting in public, my guess is you've also never been outside an after-hours club.


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03-16-2013, 08:08 AM
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I agree with the OP. In my opinion the NHL would be better without the fights. But, like the DH in baseball (which I'm equally against), it may never disappear.

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03-16-2013, 03:47 PM
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This tells me only that you're perfectly happy to put your head in the sand. There's a lot of violence in hockey. If you found violence morally repugnant, you wouldn't watch hockey period until it was ALL removed.

Far more players have had their lives changed from "legal" checks than have ever had that happen from fighting. But you're not objecting to violence in hockey. You're objecting to "fighting." Fighting is violence without any pretenses. So you're saying that violence is okay with you as long as you can pretend it's not violence.

This is like only eating meat made from animals that were raised in luxury and calling it "humane," then decrying anybody who has any old ham sandwich. If you're eating meat at all, the animal died violently, squealing and writhing in pain as its life was snuffed out. Different people accept this, ignore this, reject meat for this reason. Rejecting meat could be seen as the conscionable choice. Ignoring the violence involved in the slaughter of livestock and eating it anyway, while looking down on the group that admits it's brutal, is an exercise in denial, not an exercise of conscience, but you would like to pretend otherwise, which is a seriously deluded place to put yourself.
I think I like you. Where can I subscribe to your magazine?

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03-17-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
This tells me only that you're perfectly happy to put your head in the sand. There's a lot of violence in hockey. If you found violence morally repugnant, you wouldn't watch hockey period until it was ALL removed.

Far more players have had their lives changed from "legal" checks than have ever had that happen from fighting. But you're not objecting to violence in hockey. You're objecting to "fighting." Fighting is violence without any pretenses. So you're saying that violence is okay with you as long as you can pretend it's not violence.
Soooo, it would be OK to fight in other "violent" sports like football or baseball (if you don't think baseball has violence, just ask Buster Posey)????

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03-23-2013, 11:16 PM
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Soooo, it would be OK to fight in other "violent" sports like football or baseball (if you don't think baseball has violence, just ask Buster Posey)????
They already do fight in baseball.

And yes, I think there should be a form of fighting in football. If guys knew they might get beat up in front of millions of people for playing too violently, maybe less guys they otherwise would have crushed would be senile old men at 38.

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03-25-2013, 02:34 PM
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They already do fight in baseball.
In baseball its once or twice a month. In Hockey it's every day and more violent.

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And yes, I think there should be a form of fighting in football. If guys knew they might get beat up in front of millions of people for playing too violently, maybe less guys they otherwise would have crushed would be senile old men at 38.
So, maybe if Sam in accounting bumps up against me in the hallway I should just kick the crap out of him.

My point is (and it's my opinion - obviously the minority) The NHL would be more exciting if they eliminated the fights.

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03-25-2013, 03:39 PM
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In baseball its once or twice a month. In Hockey it's every day and more violent.



So, maybe if Sam in accounting bumps up against me in the hallway I should just kick the crap out of him.

My point is (and it's my opinion - obviously the minority) The NHL would be more exciting if they eliminated the fights.
yeah nothing packs them in like a good old stickfight, or sequential goalie running.

If I thought that the game would be more exciting if the players wore black or white cowboy hats instead of helmets and advocated it to make the game more personally exciting, i'd be laughed at.

In case you missed it, that's a mirror.

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03-25-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tag0519 View Post


So, maybe if Sam in accounting bumps up against me in the hallway I should just kick the crap out of him.

My point is (and it's my opinion - obviously the minority) The NHL would be more exciting if they eliminated the fights.


Work and the sport of hockey are two different worlds. Apples to oranges.

One is a form of entertainment which is supported by fans who use their hard earned money to be entertained.

The other is work and is unrelated to national entertainment.

I suspect you would be fired and have a restraining order if you thrashed Sam in the workplace and may or may not have to replace his pocket protector

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03-25-2013, 05:10 PM
  #22
Trognitz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tag0519 View Post


So, maybe if Sam in accounting bumps up against me in the hallway I should just kick the crap out of him.
works for me. if we all acted this way, people would quit being anuses

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03-25-2013, 05:23 PM
  #23
edog37
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read "The Code" by Ross Bernstein & you will understand....

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03-25-2013, 05:25 PM
  #24
tag0519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post


Work and the sport of hockey are two different worlds. Apples to oranges.

One is a form of entertainment which is supported by fans who use their hard earned money to be entertained.

The other is work and is unrelated to national entertainment.

I suspect you would be fired and have a restraining order if you thrashed Sam in the workplace and may or may not have to replace his pocket protector
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trognitz View Post
works for me. if we all acted this way, people would quit being anuses
Whew ... I'm glad everyone got my humor

I was hoping I wouldn't start anything here. Just wanted to relay my opinion.

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03-25-2013, 05:26 PM
  #25
tag0519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
read "The Code" by Ross Bernstein & you will understand....
Thanks edog. I will check it out.

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