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03-25-2013, 05:51 PM
  #1
Slick Cat
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Tallon's blueprint

This may cause some heated debate since many on this board constantly use the "trust tallon" mantra, but I wonder if we really should. He has been the gm for three seasons so far. Positives: Last year was great, won the division and made the playoffs for the first time in years. Brought excitement to the arena during the playoff run. Negatives: we barely hung on to the playoff spot, and lost in the first round. The other two years have been in the worst of our history, out of the race by mid season, total tank mode and getting embarrassed. We could dissect every move but every gm has good and bad ones and he has had some good ones and some stinkers. I'm not sold. A blueprint should not include such a massive regression. We keep seeing and hearing santos but never tallon, maybe the golf course is keeping him too busy. You recall his obsession. It will be interesting how we finish and who he trades. Will he trade Mattias, who has been one of our only good players, because he wasn't one of "his" guys? Who else will go? As good as last year was, this year was 100 times worse, not just the record but the complete lack if interest of 90 percent of the roster. The fans follow suit and the arena has been dead and they are experiencing a large number of non renewals, and well deserved. With the new divisions in place the playoffs look like a major challenge moving forward. With everything yormark does to alleniate the fan base, this franchise will not survive another season like this one.

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03-25-2013, 06:02 PM
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This season is just a mess, no preparation for the season. Tons of injuries and bad goalkeeping (Theo and Clemmer).

1st season:
After Tallon took over he really cleaned the house and sent off a majority of players. He drafted some very promising players by the picks he received in that trade. We sucked that season.

2nd season:
A lot of things "clicked" and went well, we overachieved and made the playoffs. We lost against the Devils in OT, Devils went on to the Stanley Cup Finals. Panthers were the only one to take them to seven games. Yet again, we overachieved. We played well in the playoffs tho', imo.

3rd season:
Horrid season from the start, players getting injured by freak accidents (Gudbranson), Bergenheim injured playing over-seas, loads of people who were not healthy for the start. No real training camp, no preparation. Really, what did you expect of this season? We have tons of injuries as well.



About Matthias, I don't see him getting traded. All this talk about him trading everyone who is not "one of his guys" is just overblown. I'm sure he'd trade him if there was a sweet offer on the table, otherwise no. It's a business, every single day Tallon tries to improve the team, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Have faith, we'll see how we do next year. Our prospects are finally starting to blossom - Huby, Shore, Markström and we got loads of more coming.

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03-25-2013, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
This may cause some heated debate since many on this board constantly use the "trust tallon" mantra, but I wonder if we really should. He has been the gm for three seasons so far. Positives: Last year was great, won the division and made the playoffs for the first time in years. Brought excitement to the arena during the playoff run. Negatives: we barely hung on to the playoff spot, and lost in the first round. The other two years have been in the worst of our history, out of the race by mid season, total tank mode and getting embarrassed. We could dissect every move but every gm has good and bad ones and he has had some good ones and some stinkers. I'm not sold. A blueprint should not include such a massive regression. We keep seeing and hearing santos but never tallon, maybe the golf course is keeping him too busy. You recall his obsession. It will be interesting how we finish and who he trades. Will he trade Mattias, who has been one of our only good players, because he wasn't one of "his" guys? Who else will go? As good as last year was, this year was 100 times worse, not just the record but the complete lack if interest of 90 percent of the roster. The fans follow suit and the arena has been dead and they are experiencing a large number of non renewals, and well deserved. With the new divisions in place the playoffs look like a major challenge moving forward. With everything yormark does to alleniate the fan base, this franchise will not survive another season like this one.
A horrible season, never mind everything happening, it's just horrible! The sky is falling on us again.

Wasn't it a 5 year plan?

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03-25-2013, 06:07 PM
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Last year was a fluke in my book. We weren't supposed to make the playoffs. But with the addition of Huberdeau, one would've thought we'd have been a team of similar caliber. Of course, injuries really plagued us this year, and without depth guys like Shore, Robak, and Strachan, this season would be much much worse, though i'm not sure how it could be much worse, to be honest. But Markstrom is finally getting his starts and is looking more confident every day. We still have the best prospect pool in the league, and guys like Bjugstad, Trochek, Howden, Matheson, Petrovic have still yet to make their impact felt.

Making the playoffs last year raised expectations for the club, and these expectations were probably a bit lofty considering our state in the rebuild. That being said, this is the last year i would expect anything below mediocrity. The prospects are coming into their own, and i fully expect to see solid improvements every season for the next 2-3 years. Tallon has dominated the draft during this rebuild. Now it's time for him to dominate trades and Free Agency. Let's solve our problems from within, and balance those solutions out with solid FA signings. I'm looking forward to it.

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03-25-2013, 06:13 PM
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Guys, calm down, for cryin. Ha we been healthy, we'd be leading the Division. And not just because its crappy. We'd be hanging in with the best. Perhaps if Weiss wasn't just an injury issue we may be struggling, but I don't think the goal tending would be as bad, either.

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03-25-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakstar View Post
This season is just a mess, no preparation for the season. Tons of injuries and bad goalkeeping (Theo and Clemmer).

1st season:
After Tallon took over he really cleaned the house and sent off a majority of players. He drafted some very promising players by the picks he received in that trade. We sucked that season.

2nd season:
A lot of things "clicked" and went well, we overachieved and made the playoffs. We lost against the Devils in OT, Devils went on to the Stanley Cup Finals. Panthers were the only one to take them to seven games. Yet again, we overachieved. We played well in the playoffs tho', imo.

3rd season:
Horrid season from the start, players getting injured by freak accidents (Gudbranson), Bergenheim injured playing over-seas, loads of people who were not healthy for the start. No real training camp, no preparation. Really, what did you expect of this season? We have tons of injuries as well.



About Matthias, I don't see him getting traded. All this talk about him trading everyone who is not "one of his guys" is just overblown. I'm sure he'd trade him if there was a sweet offer on the table, otherwise no. It's a business, every single day Tallon tries to improve the team, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Have faith, we'll see how we do next year. Our prospects are finally starting to blossom - Huby, Shore, Markström and we got loads of more coming.
I like some of our prospects but until they produce at this level you never know, they all look great on paper. We've had many prospects fall way short over the years. When Ellerby was traded, santos pointed out that he wasn't one of their guys. We've heard this before. Garrison was not signed, Weiss is as good as gone. The only two left are Mattias and Markstrom. Every team has injuries, and every team had the same shortened preseason. Next year is a big year, excuses only go so far.

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03-25-2013, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
I like some of our prospects but until they produce at this level you never know, they all look great on paper. We've had many prospects fall way short over the years. When Ellerby was traded, santos pointed out that he wasn't one of their guys. We've heard this before. Garrison was not signed, Weiss is as good as gone. The only two left are Mattias and Markstrom. Every team has injuries, and every team had the same shortened preseason. Next year is a big year, excuses only go so far.
Teams didn't have our injuries, it's not an excuse, that's a fact. Stop panicking. And garrison wanted Vancouver, period, don't conveniently forget that.

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03-25-2013, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
I like some of our prospects but until they produce at this level you never know, they all look great on paper. We've had many prospects fall way short over the years. When Ellerby was traded, santos pointed out that he wasn't one of their guys. We've heard this before. Garrison was not signed, Weiss is as good as gone. The only two left are Mattias and Markstrom. Every team has injuries, and every team had the same shortened preseason. Next year is a big year, excuses only go so far.
Yes, we've had many prospects who simply made no impact. For once though, we actually have prospects who are lighting up the minor leagues and actually doing well.

About Ellerby, are you really still dwelling on that? We basically traded Ellerby for Brennan (We sent the 5th round pick from the Ellerby trade for Brennan) - Ellerby has 2 points in 40 games. T.J Brennan has 2 in 5. Sure, points aren't exactly the best measure for play. But Ellerby wasn't an allstar here. He later went on to pick on his former team - yep, I miss him

Garrison was not signed, you're right, but from what I've heard he also took a discount when he signed for Vancouver. Would you have paid him 5+ mil?

Weiss - has been a big part of the franchise, played really bad this season. Still wouldn't mind seeing him get a 2 year extension. We'll see what happens.

About the injuries, just take a look at our injury list - sure, teams battle through it. But there's a point when you simply just can't deny the fact that injuries play a big part of our failiure. I think a lot of the injuries are actually due to the medical staff not being good. But I'm not the right person to speculate in that.

Were you expecting a cup this year, or what were your expectations? This ain't NHL '13.

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03-25-2013, 06:23 PM
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It starts.

I already look forward to the firing of Tallon/Dineen and the hiring of our next GM only to re-read the "Trust in (insert GM here)" mantra that's been repeated around these parts since Keenan and Dudley.

And then repeat, of course, ad nauseum.

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03-25-2013, 06:23 PM
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All you can do is sigh and say "time will tell"....

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03-25-2013, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Teams didn't have our injuries, it's not an excuse, that's a fact. Stop panicking. And garrison wanted Vancouver, period, don't conveniently forget that.
He could have been signed earlier, once you let a guy become a free agent, everything changes. No panicking, I'm just saying that I am not blindly behind every move tallon makes. At the end of the day, he is responsible. They are losing fans, being the worst team in the league has major ramifications.

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03-25-2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyRulez View Post
All you can do is sigh and say "time will tell"....
You are correct, hopefully it will end better than it did for the Dudley and Martin apologists years ago.

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03-25-2013, 06:30 PM
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Holy Jokinen
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Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
He could have been signed earlier, once you let a guy become a free agent, everything changes. No panicking, I'm just saying that I am not blindly behind every move tallon makes. At the end of the day, he is responsible. They are losing fans, being the worst team in the league has major ramifications.
Hindsight is 20/20, and even then, i don't fully agree with you.

When Garrison first showed any promise, he was about as good as he is for Vancouver this year. Not great defensively, not great offensively... a 5-6 type guy who, through virtue of injuries and lack of depth, was getting top minutes in Fla.

Then, he put up his huge year with Campbell feeding his wheelhouse, and by then he was an expiring UFA, with his sights set on his hometown team. There's nothing we could've done there.

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03-25-2013, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by freakstar View Post
Yes, we've had many prospects who simply made no impact. For once though, we actually have prospects who are lighting up the minor leagues and actually doing well.

About Ellerby, are you really still dwelling on that? We basically traded Ellerby for Brennan (We sent the 5th round pick from the Ellerby trade for Brennan) - Ellerby has 2 points in 40 games. T.J Brennan has 2 in 5. Sure, points aren't exactly the best measure for play. But Ellerby wasn't an allstar here. He later went on to pick on his former team - yep, I miss him

Garrison was not signed, you're right, but from what I've heard he also took a discount when he signed for Vancouver. Would you have paid him 5+ mil?

Weiss - has been a big part of the franchise, played really bad this season. Still wouldn't mind seeing him get a 2 year extension. We'll see what happens.

About the injuries, just take a look at our injury list - sure, teams battle through it. But there's a point when you simply just can't deny the fact that injuries play a big part of our failiure. I think a lot of the injuries are actually due to the medical staff not being good. But I'm not the right person to speculate in that.

Were you expecting a cup this year, or what were your expectations? This ain't NHL '13.
I would have paid garrison five mill per. I did not expect playoffs once our moves materialized, but I did expect some passionate hockey and to be in the mix all year. Even our tough guy shows no emotion. Weiss is gone, no way he comes back here.

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03-25-2013, 06:35 PM
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I think you're overreacting to this year. It's better that we're the worst team than being a 9th seed. It's also excusable. We've lost an insane amount of guys to injury and we had no preseason/training camp.

I do think being super loyal to Tallon is completely naive but he does have a plan. Draft picks take time to develop and the only way a small market team like ours will ever establish itself is to have a good core of young guys. With this upcoming draft, Tallon's building of the core foundation is going to be pretty much complete and we should expect to see results.

Going into next year, the scariest thing is not having Weiss back or someone to fill his spot. If we sign him or find a replacement, I think we'll be okay.

Hubs-?-Flash
Versteeg-Shore-Mueller
Bergie-Goc/Matthias-Kopecky
Howden/Skille/Upshall/Smithson who knows


Campbell-Kulikov
Kuba-Guds
Weaver-?Brennan

Markstrom
Clemmer

Plus, we'll have the possibility of Bjugstad, Trocheck, and Petrovic competing for spots plus whomever we draft with our top 3 pick.

If Markstrom plays well on a consistent basis we should be in a position to compete most nights.

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03-25-2013, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Holy Jokinen View Post
Hindsight is 20/20, and even then, i don't fully agree with you.

When Garrison first showed any promise, he was about as good as he is for Vancouver this year. Not great defensively, not great offensively... a 5-6 type guy who, through virtue of injuries and lack of depth, was getting top minutes in Fla.

Then, he put up his huge year with Campbell feeding his wheelhouse, and by then he was an expiring UFA, with his sights set on his hometown team. There's nothing we could've done there.
I've been following Garrison this year, and he has been playing well for Vancouver. Definitely not a 5-6 guy for them. He's currently on their top pairing with Hamhuis. He's been fantastic defensively and consistent. Tanev is their only other d-man who's been as consistent as Garrison. He also has 5 goals already, and he wasn't a part of their PP until recently.


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03-25-2013, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
He could have been signed earlier, once you let a guy become a free agent, everything changes. No panicking, I'm just saying that I am not blindly behind every move tallon makes. At the end of the day, he is responsible. They are losing fans, being the worst team in the league has major ramifications.
It was Vancouver. He wanted to go home, and you cant blame him for that. He didnt shut it down like Bouwmeester did, and he did respect the Panthers enough to listen to our offer.

Im not worried about Tallon's "blueprint" either. This team was doomed from the jump. We had injuries to a lot of our key players before the season even started, and it just kept piling on from their. Like Clint said, we dont need any of those fire Tallon/Dineen threads popping up now, just because we are heading to a lottery pick. The way Tallon has drafted since becoming the GM, we should all be excited about what we might look like over the next few seasons.

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03-25-2013, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Clint View Post
It starts.

I already look forward to the firing of Tallon/Dineen and the hiring of our next GM only to re-read the "Trust in (insert GM here)" mantra that's been repeated around these parts since Keenan and Dudley.

And then repeat, of course, ad nauseum.
Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
He could have been signed earlier, once you let a guy become a free agent, everything changes. No panicking, I'm just saying that I am not blindly behind every move tallon makes. At the end of the day, he is responsible. They are losing fans, being the worst team in the league has major ramifications.
He could have? You were there in negotiations? Didn't think so, and I'm not blindly following anything, I like most of the moves.

You are panicking.

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03-25-2013, 07:18 PM
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I find this post to be kinda funny, yet expected. Im at work, so I dont have a lot of time to go into this in too much detail, but both Chicago and LA went through the same types of builds as we are going through under DT and Lombardi respectively. Both ended up winning the Stanley Cup. Both went through horrible seasons in the beginning and middle of their rebuilds. The basic theory is that you have to be so bad for several years that you amass a ton of talent. You then develop the talent and go from barely making the playoffs to winning the Cup over a period of about 3 years. (The three years at the end of the 5-6 years of total building). At one point they said we were ahead of schedule. Id argue that were actually behind schedule because last year kept us from getting a real good draft. The way I see it we are now in year 2 of our build if you exclude last year. I'll tell you right now, we're gonna be awful for another year or two. Then we''ll be middleish for a year or two, then we will have a 1-2 year period to win the Cup. Thats the way it works.

But my basic point is this, when someone tells you that Im gonna rebuild the team, and the first several years are going to be pretty bad, its kinda foolish to say were not on schedule when your team is playing bad in the first couple of years. Also, another fun fact, Lombardi told Kings fans in his first town hall meeting that they were gonna be bad for several years and they didnt like that. I dont think theyre complaining now

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03-25-2013, 07:34 PM
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Year One: Tanked on purpose.

Year Two: Made the playoffs for the first time in a decade. Fluke? Maybe. Tallon has been honest enough to say he wasn't expecting that to happen, which indicates that this wasn't supposed to be a fast solution. I, for one, appreciate the honesty. He could've easily taken full credit for it, and proclaimed himself as a savior of the franchise, which he kinda has been, anyway.

Year Three: Expected Regression + Plethora injuries lead to terrible year.

It wasn't supposed to happen quickly. In sports, being terrible is often better than mediocrity.

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03-25-2013, 07:53 PM
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It was Vancouver. He wanted to go home, and you cant blame him for that. He didnt shut it down like Bouwmeester did, and he did respect the Panthers enough to listen to our offer.
Any other player wants to go "home"?

JOL

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03-25-2013, 08:06 PM
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Any other player wants to go "home"?

JOL
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03-25-2013, 08:47 PM
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I respect Slick Cat for questioning the blue print. It certainly can be argued that in 3 yrs 2 have been horrific. We should always question management coaching etc.

Add to that the point of while we are losing the arena is a presentation disaster and it truly is depressing heading to the arena.

All that said, Tallon has a great base to turn around everything ... Now.
With the awesome goaltending finally landed, between our prospects and free agents and present players I am optimistic enough to give this ... One more year. There is no reason or excuse to not make the playoffs next year and go more than a round.

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03-25-2013, 09:13 PM
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Next year probably won't be great either. Probably not last in the league, but we'll probably miss the playoffs. When you're trying to rebuild a team through the draft, it takes time for your prospects to mature and contribute. Last year was an over-achievement from a bunch of secondary players and backup goalies. Give it time.

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03-25-2013, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Year One: Tanked on purpose.

Year Two: Made the playoffs for the first time in a decade. Fluke? Maybe. Tallon has been honest enough to say he wasn't expecting that to happen, which indicates that this wasn't supposed to be a fast solution. I, for one, appreciate the honesty. He could've easily taken full credit for it, and proclaimed himself as a savior of the franchise, which he kinda has been, anyway.

Year Three: Expected Regression + Plethora injuries lead to terrible year.

It wasn't supposed to happen quickly. In North American sports leagues , being terrible is often better than mediocrity.
correction

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