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Sproul heads list of top drafted OHL defensemen (incl. Ryan Murphy)

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Old
03-25-2013, 05:10 PM
  #76
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I still don't buy the idea that a big guy who doesn't use his frame is worse off than if he were a small guy for whom "using his frame" doesn't mean much. That seems to making a weird error and saying that the big guy doesn't use his frame AT ALL, which is hardly true for anyone. It's that big players sometimes don't use their frame enough.

The thing is that most big players who don't use their frames still have tangible advantages over small players who do. No amount of "frame usage" is going to give a small player the raw reach that the big player has. A small player usually can't put on as much muscle as a big player. A big player that can skate can cover massive amounts of ice between his skating and his reach. A big player is a ton more dangerous with a pokecheck.

So if Ryan Sproul is a big guy who doesn't use his frame often and not a great pokechecker, I STILL fail to see how he'd be better off at 5'11. It seems clear to me that he'd be even worse, because he wouldn't have a lot of the natural gifts that come with being a big guy.

I'm not convinced there's much of a natural advantage for smaller guys that isn't cancelled out by bigger guys being good enough skaters to keep up. At least not in ice hockey.

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03-25-2013, 06:37 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
This thread was so predictable.

You knew canuck fans would be asking about Corrado, you knew Detroit fans were going to toot their horns on Sproul, and you knew Faidh ar.. would be ardently defending everything that is Ryan Murphy.

They even had to change the title to read "...(incl. Ryan Murphy)"

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03-25-2013, 09:05 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
The tournment was ridiculous and I wasn't the only person to point that out. Murphy would make one mistake and suddnely a dozen people would be posting about how horrible he was, but if another player did it? It was fine.

The final play of Canada's tournment is probably the best evidence of this. Rielly turns the puck over, leaving Russia's best (And fastest) player coming down the wing. Rielly was fast enough that he could have recovered and helped out but he didn't. It wouldn't have mattered who was defending against Nichushkin, he was that good that he could have got by anyone.

Yet guess who got the blame for it? Murphy, despite Murphy being almost single handily responsble for Canada's offense that game.

It's quite hard to argue Murphy's defense is terrible if you actually watch him. Every single person who attacks him and says he's horrible is a person who would have no chance of watching him on an occasional basis unless they want to pay $7 a game.

Murphy is easily the best drafted defensive prospect playing in the OHL right now. Murphy was easily better than Sproul defensively this year, and Sproul's offensive output probaly has something to do with two factors. One Sault St Marie was an all-offense team, two Sproul played a rover style.

You're busy trying to pump up your own teams player when I doubt you've seen him. I said Murphy isn't horrible defensively and suddenly I think he's the "second coming of Brian Leetch"? Sproul has significantly more work to do than Murphy. Murphy plays top pairing minutes (Against the top lines) and top penalty killing minutes at the age of 19. Sproul plays sheltered minutes (Never against the top lines) and only sparadocily kills penalties at the age of 19.

You don't watch either player, yet you're so confident that Murphy is terrible and Sproul is amazing. I doubt you would have such a strong opinion if Sproul was drafted by the Islanders.
You continuously make the assumption that because people don't agree with you they haven't seen a player play. I have seen Murphy in person a couple times and have indeed watched a great deal of both of these players.

They both have a lot of work to do in terms of their own zone, but Murphy doesn't have a lot of the gifts in terms of size that Sproul does.

Murphy is still as likely to beat his own team as he is to help win the game. That is the problem in and of itself and one that pro coaches are unlikely to put up with.

You point out the Russia game and that is exactly the point. He similarly had a bunch of points in the U-18 championships but was on ice for 4 of the 5 goals including the winner for team USA.

There are some Wings fans that think Sproul will be a top pairing guy, I doubt it. They will likely hide him on a second pairing unless his development takes off even more, still possible with a lot of his gifts. He gets better defensively almost every time I have seen him. He is making strides there, Murphy looks very similar to the guy that was drafted.

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03-25-2013, 09:24 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
You continuously make the assumption that because people don't agree with you they haven't seen a player play. I have seen Murphy in person a couple times and have indeed watched a great deal of both of these players.

They both have a lot of work to do in terms of their own zone, but Murphy doesn't have a lot of the gifts in terms of size that Sproul does.

Murphy is still as likely to beat his own team as he is to help win the game. That is the problem in and of itself and one that pro coaches are unlikely to put up with.

You point out the Russia game and that is exactly the point. He similarly had a bunch of points in the U-18 championships but was on ice for 4 of the 5 goals including the winner for team USA.

There are some Wings fans that think Sproul will be a top pairing guy, I doubt it. They will likely hide him on a second pairing unless his development takes off even more, still possible with a lot of his gifts. He gets better defensively almost every time I have seen him. He is making strides there, Murphy looks very similar to the guy that was drafted.
I highly doubt that. Even if we accept you watched every single one of Plymouth and Sault St. Marie's games when you lived in the area, that's a maximum of 5 games each year, and I'm pretty sure Rogers and whoever the broadcaster is for Plymouth is have not shared rights every year every game. So that's 2-3 games, and no games this year. For Sproul, it's a maximum of 6 games and thats if Plymouths broadcaster shares rights with the Soo. And agian, this is assuming you watched every single game.

So even if you have watched them, your viewing size is very limited, and certainly not enough to make a judgement like you make.

As the other poster has mentioned, Sprouls size is an invalid argument since Sproul plays like he's Murphy's size. His larger size and lack of physical play means he's actually easier to get around because larger players can't turn as quick. Sproul doesn't have good stick work so he's easier to stick lift. Murphy has work to do defensively but Sproul has significantly more. Sproul is no better than Murphy defensively at 17, and Sproul is 20. I doubt Sproul will be able to play in the NHL next year, Murphy is almost guarenteed to be in the NHL next season, and if his time in the NHL this season is any indication, he'll be playing 17-18 minutes a game.

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03-25-2013, 09:33 PM
  #80
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This whole thing about size might be one of the worst arguments I have ever read on here.

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03-25-2013, 09:38 PM
  #81
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Not that you will listen but I guess I should have just stated outright I have an OHL league pass and have in fact watched significantly more than a couple games.

You are right in the assumption that I generally turn on a lot of the Wings prospects as first choice. But I have seen a lot of Murphy over these years. Never been real high on him, I don't doubt he will be in the NHL sooner than Sproul, of course he would have basically no shot of playing in the NHL next season with the Wings either that isn't how they develop guys.

Ouellet is more polished than either of these guys and I don't see him getting a legitimate shot out of camp especially if the Wings do in fact sign DeKeyser this week which a lot of people are hopeful will happen.

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03-25-2013, 09:41 PM
  #82
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An OHL season pass? I've never heard of such a thing and a google search gives no clues, except this thread. There's a stream website where you can pay $7 each game, and if you're a Rogers customer you can pay for TV package that gets you some extra OHL games, but certainly not a lot. And I highly doubt you paid $7 to watch Murphy.

Another person on these boards used almost the exact same argument to say Gibson was the only reason Kitchener was in a playoff spot this year, just as questionable.

I don't like using personal viewings as an argument but it's valid for the OHL. If you don't live in Ontario, you have almost no chance of watching OHL games unless you pay the ridiculous $7 fee. So many people claim they watch players when they don't, so it's more accurate to assume everyone out of province doesn't watch these players on a large scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjm502 View Post
This whole thing about size might be one of the worst arguments I have ever read on here.
It's an argument against using size as an argument for Sproul. Why should size be used for Sproul when he in no way shape or form uses his size well, infact, it makes his already poor defensive game worse.


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03-25-2013, 09:45 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I highly doubt that. Even if we accept you watched every single one of Plymouth and Sault St. Marie's games when you lived in the area, that's a maximum of 5 games each year, and I'm pretty sure Rogers and whoever the broadcaster is for Plymouth is have not shared rights every year every game. So that's 2-3 games, and no games this year. For Sproul, it's a maximum of 6 games and thats if Plymouths broadcaster shares rights with the Soo. And agian, this is assuming you watched every single game.

So even if you have watched them, your viewing size is very limited, and certainly not enough to make a judgement like you make.

As the other poster has mentioned, Sprouls size is an invalid argument since Sproul plays like he's Murphy's size. His larger size and lack of physical play means he's actually easier to get around because larger players can't turn as quick. Sproul doesn't have good stick work so he's easier to stick lift. Murphy has work to do defensively but Sproul has significantly more. Sproul is no better than Murphy defensively at 17, and Sproul is 20. I doubt Sproul will be able to play in the NHL next year, Murphy is almost guarenteed to be in the NHL next season, and if his time in the NHL this season is any indication, he'll be playing 17-18 minutes a game.
How many games of Sproul have you watched? You always go on about how other people havent seen guys play and when its only 2 or 3 times you shoot them down. I know you go to Kitchener games but how are we supposed to trust your judgement on Sprouls abilities when as you said above "your viewing size is very limited, and certainly not enough to make a judgement like you make." unless you expect us to think you magically watch a bunch of hounds games on top of all the Kitchener games you catch?

Its also an exaggeration that Sproul is where Murphy was defensively at 17.

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03-25-2013, 09:59 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
How many games of Sproul have you watched? You always go on about how other people havent seen guys play and when its only 2 or 3 times you shoot them down. I know you go to Kitchener games but how are we supposed to trust your judgement on Sprouls abilities when as you said above "your viewing size is very limited, and certainly not enough to make a judgement like you make." unless you expect us to think you magically watch a bunch of hounds games on top of all the Kitchener games you catch?

Its also an exaggeration that Sproul is where Murphy was defensively at 17.
All Soo games are on Kitchener TV. If Guelph games aren't on at the same time as Kitchener games, all Guelph games against the Soo are on Kitchener TV. I spend a lot of time up on Georgian Bay (Including this weekend) so I occasionally see Owen Sound games. I saw him last year before all this hype as well.

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03-25-2013, 10:00 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
An OHL season pass? I've never heard of such a thing and a google search gives no clues, except this thread. There's a stream website where you can pay $7 each game, and if you're a Rogers customer you can pay for TV package that gets you some extra OHL games, but certainly not a lot. And I highly doubt you paid $7 to watch Murphy.

Another person on these boards used almost the exact same argument to say Gibson was the only reason Kitchener was in a playoff spot this year, just as questionable.

I don't like using personal viewings as an argument but it's valid for the OHL. If you don't live in Ontario, you have almost no chance of watching OHL games unless you pay the ridiculous $7 fee. So many people claim they watch players when they don't, so it's more accurate to assume everyone out of province doesn't watch these players on a large scale.



It's an argument against using size as an argument for Sproul. Why should size be used for Sproul when he in no way shape or form uses his size well, infact, it makes his already poor defensive game worse.
It is about $300 dollars, works just fine. You should be able to find it off the main OHL page without looking to hard, under the OHL tab.

http://www4.hockeystreams.com/ Is another place you can do this $100 dollars for the year. This one helps if you are looking for overseas games.

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03-25-2013, 10:02 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I highly doubt that. Even if we accept you watched every single one of Plymouth and Sault St. Marie's games when you lived in the area, that's a maximum of 5 games each year...
Please, grab a map, those cities are on opposite sides of the state.

also..

http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/a...e-stream/26351

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03-25-2013, 10:07 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
You continuously make the assumption that because people don't agree with you they haven't seen a player play. I have seen Murphy in person a couple times and have indeed watched a great deal of both of these players.

They both have a lot of work to do in terms of their own zone, but Murphy doesn't have a lot of the gifts in terms of size that Sproul does.

Murphy is still as likely to beat his own team as he is to help win the game. That is the problem in and of itself and one that pro coaches are unlikely to put up with.

You point out the Russia game and that is exactly the point. He similarly had a bunch of points in the U-18 championships but was on ice for 4 of the 5 goals including the winner for team USA.

There are some Wings fans that think Sproul will be a top pairing guy, I doubt it. They will likely hide him on a second pairing unless his development takes off even more, still possible with a lot of his gifts. He gets better defensively almost every time I have seen him. He is making strides there, Murphy looks very similar to the guy that was drafted.
I saw Murphy play live 8-10 times in his rookie season and 5-6 in his second because I'm from Kitchener. I would agree that he looks like much the same player. His angling on the defensive side is better and he seems stronger on his skates, harder to knock off the puck. However, his defensive game hasn't made leaps and bounds, it's only average in the OHL imo. His offensive abilities are still top notch and his skating is great, but they have been for a couple of years now.
I really like Murphy and think he will produce better with higher calibre talent in the pro's, but size and defensive game still worry me for the next level.

p.s. that other guy has been a huge Murphy fan and supporter since he joined the Kitchener Rangers. There is very little you or anyone can say to change his mind about anything Murphy related.

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03-25-2013, 10:10 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Vatican Roulette View Post
Please, grab a map, those cities are on opposite sides of the state.

also..

http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/a...e-stream/26351
What state? Not Michigan, and certianly not Ontario (Which is not a state).

That's the $7 a game website. The streams are also some of the worst quality possible. Sometimes, they don't even work. My brother-in-law has a cousin who played in the WHL a few years ago and his family bought that to watch his games. I used it a few times to watch Glennie and it wasn't good quality, even though the WHL version has the best.

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I saw Murphy play live 8-10 times in his rookie season and 5-6 in his second because I'm from Kitchener. I would agree that he looks like much the same player. His angling on the defensive side is better and he seems stronger on his skates, harder to knock off the puck. However, his defensive game hasn't made leaps and bounds, it's only average in the OHL imo. His offensive abilities are still top notch and his skating is great, but they have been for a couple of years now.
I really like Murphy and think he will produce better with higher calibre talent in the pro's, but size and defensive game still worry me for the next level.

p.s. that other guy has been a huge Murphy fan and supporter since he joined the Kitchener Rangers. There is very little you or anyone can say to change his mind about anything Murphy related.
"I really like him (So you can trust me) but he's the same player he was 2 years ago and don't listen to the guy who doesn't agree with this because he's bias and wrong and I'm right because I'm a Kitchener fan and agreeing with you"

He is absolutely leaps and bounds better defensively than he was when he was 17. You failed to say how he hasn't changed. You failed to make note of what areas he's bad defenisvely at. I've given reasons why he has, provided examples of what he used to, and all I've got in reply is people saying he hasn't. Apparently that's a convincing argument.

It's as if some other Kitchener fans go out of their way to act like they're neutral. Skinner and Landeskog both got it as well (Skinner's an awful skater, Landeskog has no offensive upside). Both claims that Kitchener fans should have known better yet made the claim or let other people make it without telling them they're wrong. Both got proven wrong. I don't know how you could seriously claim that Murphy's defensive improvements are only marginal. That's ludicrous.


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03-25-2013, 11:13 PM
  #89
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What state? Not Michigan, and certianly not Ontario (Which is not a state).
really...ok, i'm done explaing things to you.

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03-26-2013, 05:25 AM
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Lidsrtum would've been much better if he was 5'7 instead of 6'1.

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03-26-2013, 09:30 AM
  #91
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This thread was so predictable.

You knew canuck fans would be asking about Corrado, you knew Detroit fans were going to toot their horns on Sproul, and you knew Faidh ar.. would be ardently defending everything that is Ryan Murphy.
Yeah but it's entertaining, nonetheless .

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03-26-2013, 09:32 AM
  #92
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really...ok, i'm done explaing things to you.
You're done because you made a ridiculous comment and you realize there's no hope defending it.

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03-26-2013, 10:41 AM
  #93
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Lidsrtum would've been much better if he was 5'7 instead of 6'1.
I was actually going to come in here and say this. Lidstrom was 6'2, didnt use his size but he definitely had a longer reach for that nasty poke check. Does anyone think hes a worse player because he didnt use his size? No because thats ridiculous and cant believe people would actually try to say that

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03-26-2013, 12:32 PM
  #94
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I was actually going to come in here and say this. Lidstrom was 6'2, didnt use his size but he definitely had a longer reach for that nasty poke check. Does anyone think hes a worse player because he didnt use his size? No because thats ridiculous and cant believe people would actually try to say that
Horrible analogy. Lidstrom is one of the best defensive players in history, Sproul is mediocre by OHL standards. He doesn't use his reach effectively (It make him worse because his stick is farther away from his body and he's not strong on his stick), and he's not physical.

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03-26-2013, 05:36 PM
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Horrible analogy. Lidstrom is one of the best defensive players in history, Sproul is mediocre by OHL standards. He doesn't use his reach effectively (It make him worse because his stick is farther away from his body and he's not strong on his stick), and he's not physical.
No, whats horrible is trying to say that any player would be better if they were smaller. Its borderline idiotic. Sprouls not some big slow guy that would be way faster if he were smaller and right nwo hes a raw prospect but that size gives him potential for a lot more than someone under 6 feet

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03-26-2013, 07:22 PM
  #96
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No, whats horrible is trying to say that any player would be better if they were smaller. Its borderline idiotic. Sprouls not some big slow guy that would be way faster if he were smaller and right nwo hes a raw prospect but that size gives him potential for a lot more than someone under 6 feet
You keep saying that yet have no argument against it. Me and Highway to Hell presented plenty of evidence for it, and you've not only ignored it, but you're continued to dismiss it.

If you play like you're small when you're big, it's far worse than playing you're size when you're 5'11. Tell me why there is very few big defensemen who aren't good defensively? Because big defensemen who don't play their size and are bad defensive are bigger liabilities than small defensemen.

And it doesn't matter what so ever that Sproul isn't slow. Because he's big, he doesn't turn as well, so if another player gets around him (Which presently is incredibly easy) he's an even worse position. Since he's not good with his stick, his reach makes it easier to knock the puck off his stick.

Case in point, a few weeks ago Kitchener played the Soo. Sproul was on the point and trying to keep the puck in, he extends his arms and uses his reach to keep the puck in but it just leaves him more vulnerable. Murphy rushes him, knocks the puck off his stick and by the time Sproul gets turned around Murphy was off on an odd man rush with Sproul unable to get back. It was the split second slower that it takes Sproul to turn that meant Sproul had no chance of even getting his stick to Murphy. This happened twice more this game, again by Murphy (Sproul got back this time but because Murphy had to jump around another plater) and another time by Tobias Rieder. That's an example where Sprouls size combined with Sprouls defensive and stick handling woes make his size a worse factor.

Sproul will need some serious improvements to his stick/puck handling and defneisve game. Something a smaller defensive can get away with if they have elite skating. Dougie Hamilton is far better than Sproul defensively and this is a problem for him as well, not enough to make his size a negative factor but it's a problem. Imagine Sproul now, who doesn't have the same defensive ability.

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03-26-2013, 07:24 PM
  #97
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Horrible analogy. Lidstrom is one of the best defensive players in history, Sproul is mediocre by OHL standards. He doesn't use his reach effectively (It make him worse because his stick is farther away from his body and he's not strong on his stick), and he's not physical.
I am not aware of anyone trying to call him anymore than a mediocre defender right now. He certainly has the potential to get better, but you hop up and down mad when several people point out Murphy is nothing more than a mediocre defender.

To point to things like Sproul's size, skating, and offensive ability are all fine, he has those. He also has gained according to reports close to 30lbs since breaking into the OHL so he is adding tons of strength, you can also see that on his frame when watching him play. You can project that he will get better defensively and some of it is he will be very tough to overpower him when he does fill out. That is hard to see with Murphy as he is unlikely to be able to overpower guys when he does fill out and his speed advantage which isn't much better than Sproul's speed will likely only decrease as he reaches higher levels.

They are however both mediocre in their own zone, one side can admit that about a player involved the other seems to be struggling to. Not surprising given your history with Murphy, but there is a difference in what we are arguing about here. Some of it is a future projection on Sproul improving which is admittedly impossible to tell, but the other is the here and now, where both players have lots to work on and you only think one does.

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03-26-2013, 09:01 PM
  #98
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Except Murphy isn't a mediocre defender. You're trying to state they're both the same defensively, yet the evidence doesn't suggest this in the least.

Sproul plays on a bad defensive team, and he isn't even the best defensively. He doesn't play top PK minutes and he doesn't play against the best competition. Murphy plays on a top defensive team where he's the best defensive player and plays top penalty killing minutes. Murphy played in the NHL this season and got praise from NHL players and his coaches for his game.

Don't act high and mighty and pretend you're being completely neutral. He may have added 30 lbs but that doesn't mean he's strong. He's not, he gets bumped off the puck easily, way too easily considering how big he is.

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03-26-2013, 09:11 PM
  #99
newfy
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
You keep saying that yet have no argument against it. Me and Highway to Hell presented plenty of evidence for it, and you've not only ignored it, but you're continued to dismiss it.

If you play like you're small when you're big, it's far worse than playing you're size when you're 5'11. Tell me why there is very few big defensemen who aren't good defensively? Because big defensemen who don't play their size and are bad defensive are bigger liabilities than small defensemen.
No you and that other guy have constantly repeated that but its not evidence of anything. Saying a big guy is a worse defenseman if he doesnt play physical is so stupid. Its your opinion with no proof and you pass it as fact to make Murphy seem better. Just like how you said there arent a lot of big dmen that arent great defensively, I could say there arent many that are under 5'11 and make an even bigger list of dmen that are bad defensively.

How about you make a list of top pairing dmen who are under 6 feet and great defensively if youre so sure of your position. Pretty sure the last dman under 6 feet to win the Norris was Randy Carlyle Back in 81. Sprouls skating is exceptional for guys of that height and he hasnt had all that much time to put on weight since his growth spurt either. Hes not a noodle out there, hes more physical then you let on.

He needs to develop but to say he would be better off shorter is probably one of, if not the dumbest things I've ever read on here lol. Once he fills out that 6'4 frame and is still skating great he will be a force to be reckoned with. His development curve has been ridiculous but you think its going to stop all of a sudden for some reason.

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03-26-2013, 09:59 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
No you and that other guy have constantly repeated that but its not evidence of anything. Saying a big guy is a worse defenseman if he doesnt play physical is so stupid. Its your opinion with no proof and you pass it as fact to make Murphy seem better. Just like how you said there arent a lot of big dmen that arent great defensively, I could say there arent many that are under 5'11 and make an even bigger list of dmen that are bad defensively.

How about you make a list of top pairing dmen who are under 6 feet and great defensively if youre so sure of your position. Pretty sure the last dman under 6 feet to win the Norris was Randy Carlyle Back in 81. Sprouls skating is exceptional for guys of that height and he hasnt had all that much time to put on weight since his growth spurt either. Hes not a noodle out there, hes more physical then you let on.

He needs to develop but to say he would be better off shorter is probably one of, if not the dumbest things I've ever read on here lol. Once he fills out that 6'4 frame and is still skating great he will be a force to be reckoned with. His development curve has been ridiculous but you think its going to stop all of a sudden for some reason.
Dude, Karlsson won the Norris last year. He is a generous 5'11''

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