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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread VI

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Old
03-25-2013, 08:04 PM
  #876
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The Millionares welcome back spare RW Lorne Carr, finalizing the roster.

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03-25-2013, 08:05 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Is it me or does anyone else find it a little amusing over the brouhaha of a final pick depth player?
Spares are injury replacements. I think that twice I voted a team lower in the regular season because their spares were so bad that I figured they'd be liabilities for the games they did play, but yeah, it is rare for them to have an actual impact in the ATD, especially round 25ers.

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03-25-2013, 08:05 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I've got Reen's pick. Montréal completes the lineup with "pure goon" and native son, Georges Laraque, RW.

I'll PM Hobnobs.
What the ****.

Did not expect that from a GM like Reen.

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03-25-2013, 08:06 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
What the ****.

Did not expect that from a GM like Reen.
At least it isn't the Montreal Forum Ghosts!

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03-25-2013, 08:06 PM
  #880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Is it me or does anyone else find it a little amusing over the brouhaha of a final pick depth player?
You should realize, as a newbie, that there will be a MLD and AAA later in the year to pick the greats or near-greats overlooked in this draft, often guys who later get promoted to the ATD as we realize how great they are, come across more research, etc.

The ATD is supposed to be the top-800 or thereabouts of all time, with the depth drafts (MLD,AAA) about selecting the next-best and good-but-not-all-time greats competitive.

Check them out:

Quote:
The MLD 2012 Thread I
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1229735
MLD 2012 Official Roster thread
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1230053

In the year 2011 we made 1,932 picks over the ATD, MLD, AAA, AA and A drafts, plus had a free agent thread after that:

The Undrafted of 2011: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1068647

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03-25-2013, 08:07 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
The Millionares welcome back spare RW Lorne Carr, finalizing the roster.
that's a really good pick and a player that I assumed was gone already.

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Old
03-25-2013, 08:26 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
His cups in mostly a depth secondary role versus a double cup champion team captain? VERY different roles.
Why are we giving Young credit for two cups? He didn't play a single game in the Wings second Cup championship. Also, Benny Woit played in EVERY game for the Wings during their three cups in the 50's.

Quote:
Woit had one in an era when all-star games were annual occurances, whereas Young played during an era when there was just two all-star benefit games.
Hey, an all-star birth is an all-star birth - we can't speculate as to whether Young would have been voted had there been regular all-star games at the time...

Quote:
Young was three times top-10 in all-star selection voting, and was third in NHL scoring among defensemen the year of the first of the back-to-back cup wins.
Comparing offence isn't the best way to build an argument, as Woit was a defensive defenceman. As such, we don't expect him to place high in scoring among defencemen.

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03-25-2013, 08:36 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Is it me or does anyone else find it a little amusing over the brouhaha of a final pick depth player?
Sayre's law.

"In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake."

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03-25-2013, 08:36 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Woit never received a vote for the Norris, and in the years we have full all-star records, he never received a single vote for them, either.
How many years are we missing full voting records? What years?

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03-25-2013, 08:43 PM
  #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Sayre's law.

"In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake."
Sayre's Law, is that for real?

Sounds like current American politics unfortunately....

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03-25-2013, 08:45 PM
  #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
Why are we giving Young credit for two cups? He didn't play a single game in the Wings second Cup championship. Also, Benny Woit played in EVERY game for the Wings during their three cups in the 50's.



Hey, an all-star birth is an all-star birth - we can't speculate as to whether Young would have been voted had there been regular all-star games at the time...



Comparing offence isn't the best way to build an argument, as Woit was a defensive defenceman. As such, we don't expect him to place high in scoring among defencemen.
Nope. Pretty much through the entire Original 6 period, the All Star Game pitted the previous season's Cup winner against the All Stars from the other 5 teams. So basically, Woit playing in the All Star Game on the previous year's Cup winner is completely frivolous, as we already know how what Cups he won. What I want to know is why he only played in 1 ASG when he was on 3 Cup winners.

The All Star game Doug was selected to was one of two Memorial games played in the 1930s - it raise money for the family of the deceased Babe Siebert. It pitted the combined Canadiens/Maroons against the All Stars from the rest of the league, of which Young was one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
How many years are we missing full voting records? What years?
It might only be 1958-1960 that we are missing now - the thread is stickied on the History board if you want to check to see for sure. We do have full Norris votes for the entire time period.

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03-25-2013, 08:55 PM
  #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Nope. Pretty much through the entire Original 6 period, the All Star Game pitted the previous season's Cup winner against the All Stars from the other 5 teams. So basically, Woit playing in the All Star Game on the previous year's Cup winner is completely frivolous, as we already know how what Cups he won. What I want to know is why he only played in 1 ASG when he was on 3 Cup winners.

The All Star game Doug was selected to was one of two Memorial games played in the 1930s - it raise money for the family of the deceased Babe Siebert. It pitted the combined Canadiens/Maroons against the All Stars from the rest of the league, of which Young was one.
Good question!

And, when I wrote "an all-star birth is an all-star birth" I wasn't referring to Woit (you're right, he was selected because he was on the cup champion), I was indicating that we can't speculate as to Young's potential all-star appearances should they have existed (sorry, should have been clearer).

Also, who selected the roster for the Memorial all-star games (honest question)?


It might only be 1958-1960 that we are missing now - the thread is stickied on the History board if you want to check to see for sure. We do have full Norris votes for the entire time period.[/QUOTE]

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03-25-2013, 09:06 PM
  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
look at the competition on their own team - of course Woit is a 4th defenceman, anyone drafted at this stage would be behind Kelly, Pronovost, and Goldham; including Young. That said, he was often paired with Kelly or Pronovost

Also, I'm not sure how Young is credited with captaining that 36-37 Re Wings championship - he didn't play a single playoff game that season.
Except my pick of Doug Barkley 2 rounds ago, who finished ahead of Pronovost and Gadsby in Norris voting in 63-64, ahead of Pronovost(who had moved on to Toronto at the time) and Gadsby in 65-66. And was 2 voting points behind Pronovost in 1962-63. He never was ahead of Kelly or Goldham because Goldham was retired during Barkley's career, and Kelly had moved to center. There are good players still out there.

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03-25-2013, 09:06 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Nope. Pretty much through the entire Original 6 period, the All Star Game pitted the previous season's Cup winner against the All Stars from the other 5 teams. So basically, Woit playing in the All Star Game on the previous year's Cup winner is completely frivolous, as we already know how what Cups he won. What I want to know is why he only played in 1 ASG when he was on 3 Cup winners.
I think I figured it out (this is all from hockey reference)...

1952
All-star game in 1952 -- the rosters were first-team vs. second-team; so, despite winning the cup, Detroit's roster wasn't guaranteed an all-star birth (Pronovost was left off the roster, as well as Abel and Delvecchio)

1954
All-star game in 1954 -- Detroit vs. all-stars; Woit is an all-star

1955
All-star game in 1955 -- Detroit vs. all-stars; Woit traded to Chicago


Last edited by papershoes: 03-26-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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Old
03-25-2013, 09:20 PM
  #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The All Star game Doug was selected to was one of two Memorial games played in the 1930s - it raise money for the family of the deceased Babe Siebert. It pitted the combined Canadiens/Maroons against the All Stars from the rest of the league, of which Young was one.
Actually, Young was on Montreal for the 1939 Babe Seibert Memorial Game; so, he wasn't selected as an all-star but, as a member of the Montreal Canadiens.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=28914

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03-25-2013, 09:25 PM
  #891
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Lots of relevant info has been dug up in the Young vs. Woit debate here. Nice to see. Woit still looks like the lesser of the two, but the comparison is not so obviously wacky. The role on the team, the length of career and the captaincy are three clear differences remaining.

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03-25-2013, 09:28 PM
  #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Lots of relevant info has been dug up in the Young vs. Woit debate here. Nice to see. Woit still looks like the lesser of the two, but the comparison is not so obviously wacky. The role on the team, the length of career and the captaincy are three clear differences remaining.
I agree that Young is better however, I don't think the gap is nearly as big as everyone is making it seem...

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03-25-2013, 09:32 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
I think I figured it out (this is all from hockey reference)...

1952
All-star game in 1952 -- the rosters were first-team vs. second-team; so, despite winning the cup, Detroit's roster was guaranteed an all-star birth (Pronovost was left off the roster, as well as Abel and Delvecchio)

1954
All-star game in 1954 -- Detroit vs. all-stars; Woit is an all-star

1955
All-star game in 1955 -- Detroit vs. all-stars; Woit not in NHL
1951 and 1952 was first team all-stars versus second team all-stars. The first team was filled with players from American teams and the second team with players from Canadian teams.

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03-25-2013, 09:33 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
1951 and 1952 was first team all-stars versus second team all-stars. The first team was filled with players from American teams and the second team with players from Canadian teams.
...meant to say wasn't guaranteed an all-star birth

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03-25-2013, 09:35 PM
  #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
Actually, Young was on Montreal for the 1939 Babe Seibert Memorial Game; so, he wasn't selected as an all-star but, as a member of the Montreal Canadiens.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=28914
Hmmm, I stand corrected on that one. Guess it was in 1939-40 and not 1938-39. Means Young was in the top half of players from the two Montreal teams... which... is something, but not much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Lots of relevant info has been dug up in the Young vs. Woit debate here. Nice to see. Woit still looks like the lesser of the two, but the comparison is not so obviously wacky. The role on the team, the length of career and the captaincy are three clear differences remaining.
I think it's still wacky. We're comparing a secondary star who received multiple All-Star votes 3 times with a depth player.

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03-25-2013, 09:48 PM
  #896
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I don't get it either. There's still dynasty depth defenseman who can say they made one all-star game on merit, and Woit can't even say that.

I was really impressed by what I read about Doug Young in newspapers researching contemporaries and a teammate. I'd like to see something about Woit if we're going to talk about how they're similar since there's nothing in the voting or all-star games.

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03-25-2013, 10:02 PM
  #897
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Woit, Laraque, Ladd .... this is the Double-A Draft isn't? There surely are plenty more deserving that will go in the MLD and AAA. That is certain.

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03-25-2013, 10:04 PM
  #898
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Perhaps we should have voting on the 5 best value picks and 5 worst value picks of the ATD (since we'll have all-star voting anyways, eh?) and have that info included at the start of next year's draft, as a head's up. Otherwise, some may argue next year: "He dropped to me, was drafted last year, so I got him."

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03-25-2013, 10:06 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Woit, Laraque, Ladd .... this is the Double-A Draft isn't? There surely are plenty more deserving that will go in the MLD and AAA. That is certain.
Eh, I don't think Woit was a particularly good pick, but I wouldn't lump him with the other two. He was a depth player for a good in a 6 team league. Those guys are depth players in a 30 team league...

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03-25-2013, 10:16 PM
  #900
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I believe this is where we are...


758 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - SKIPPED
759 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Daniel Briere, C
760 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Steve Thomas, LW
761 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Normand Rochefort, D
762 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Ryan Miller, G
763 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Murph Chamberlain, LW
764 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Billy Taylor, C
765 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Andrew Ladd, LW
766 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Mike Green, D
767 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Mike Ricci, C
768 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Kenny Jonsson, D

Round 25

769 Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Gary Dornhoefer, RW
770 VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - asked to be Skipped
771 Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Clem Loughlin, D
772 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Bill Barilko, D
773 Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Chris Phillips, D
774 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Bryan McCabe, D
775 papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Benny Woit, D/RW
776 DoMakc - HC Donbass - Ulf Nilsson, C
777 Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Georges Laraque, RW
778 Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Tommy Sandlin, coach
779 Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - SKIPPED
780 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Ladislav Trojak, F
781 Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - SKIPPED
782 jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Sami Kapanen, LW
783 monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Lorne Carr, RW
784 tony d - Baltimore Blades - OTC til 1:04AM ET

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