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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-25-2013, 12:26 AM
  #526
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I was going to post this in the skill set thread but ill post it here instead. I just can't buy into the whole Sergei Fedorov "could do it all." I just have my disbelief in some of the excuses being made for him. I think for someone that supposedly had every tool in the toolbox should have stood out more than Fedorov did. I've read that Fedorov never had good line mates to play with. Even if that was the case why was Fedorov never given better line mates? Yzerman was approaching his 30s while Fedorov was coming into his prime years. Certainly coming off a Hart trophy was evidence that Fedorov could be a a star player. But even after that Yzerman still got preferential line mates. That's where I find a problem. I Fedorov is still a number 2 center on his own team then how could he be one of the best players in the league. I know Yzerman was good but at that point he wasn't the same as the 1989 Yzerman. Even the line mates Fedorov did get to play with weren't as bad some make them out to be. But another question then arises, did Fedorov really make his line mates better? Slava Kozlov had better seasons later in his career at an older age. Same thing with Sykora, and Prospal. Selanne gets criticized for getting to play with Kariya. But it's a two way street. Selanne made Kariya a great player. He led Housley, McDonald, Zhamnov to career seasons. You could even argue he helped Corey Perry win a Hart trophy.

Now Fedorov had the chance to be the man in certain occasions. But he never really flourished offensively as much as Selanne. Fedorovs besides 1994 Fedorov never really had the offensive numbers to compete with Selanne. Now I understand that Fedorov was great defensively but I was under the impression that Fedorov didn't have to sacrifice offense for defense. Now the Wings also never won until Yzerman was leading the way again. Does that say that teams couldn't win with Fedorov as their best player? Probably not but its worth considering in the debates against Selanne.

Another thing that bothers me is that playing for the Red Wings supposedly didnt help Fedorov at all according to some people. Ill say first that Fedorov was fantastic in the playoffs and much better than Selanne in that regard. But people bring up his 4 straight 20 point playoffs quite often. But to make it far enough in the playoffs to get to those totals you have to be on a good team. If its being held against Selanne for not reaching high numbers in get playoffs then it has to be recognized that Fedorov played on teams great enough to make it deep in the playoffs to put up those totals. Again not taking anything away from from Fedorovs playoffs, he was great.

Another big thing that in my opinion puts Selanne over Fedorov is longevity. Fedorov to me was pretty much done as a good top six player at age 36. Selanne of course is still a top six player at age 42. He broke into the league at age 22 and led the league in goals while finishing fifth in points. 18 years later and Selanne is once again top 10 in points again despite being 40. Even at 41 he led his team in scoring, a team that had the reigning Hart trophy winner. Fedorov on the other hand was pretty much finished after the lockout. And i dont buy into the whole "he didn't play with good players" argument this time. The argument he gets in his prime is that he just looked like an elite player. I'm going to use the reverse here. He just didnt look like a great player any more. Even if you think he was better post lockout than I'm giving him credit for there's no way you could say he was better than Selanne. I'd say Selanne post 40 yrs old was better than Fedorov at any time post lockout.

The shorter version of what I'm trying to say is that I don't buy all the excuses for Fedorov. I don't think you could use the line mate excuse since its pretty much saying even at his best he was still behind a past his prime Yzerman. Also I don't think Fedorov ever really made his line mates better, at least not nearly as much as Selanne. I think being on the Red Wings gave Fedorov a better opportunity to he great in the playoffs. Lastly I think Fedorov didn't have as great of a career given his skillset which is considered by some the best of all time.

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Old
03-25-2013, 12:32 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If that was Modano's "defense first" then he is an incredibly talented offensive player and pretty poor defensively.

Reality is that Modano, throughout his career, wasn't terribly good about systems. He was a solid two-way player at his peak, not a Fedorov/Yzerman/Forsberg/Sakic, but solid. But when it came to systems that required him to plug in as a piece, that was a bit more difficult for him than other guys who brought similar overall results. I don't know if I'd agree with it, but the usual explanation for that around here would be "diagnosis: low hockey IQ". I guess I never examined Modano in that sense but I wouldn't rule it out. He was a speedster who preferred his shot over his pass, but unlike a great deal of speedster/scorer types Modano had good size and strength. This allowed him to adapt better to the tight checking of the DPE as he entered his prime, even without making significant changes to his play style. He was effective defensively in his prime, but he was also on the ice with Jere Lehtinen and any two of Sergei Zubov, Darryl Sydor, Derian Hatcher, and Richard Matvichuk. Or possibly Craig Ludwig.
Modano was clearly better defensively than forsberg-sakic and just as good as Yzerman, this is hilarious.

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03-25-2013, 12:53 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Modano was clearly better defensively than forsberg-sakic and just as good as Yzerman, this is hilarious.
No, THIS is hilarious. Modano, who never received a single Selke vote during the 90s before the Gainey to Hitchcock changeover, and even then relatively rarely even figured in the top 10 in Selke voting... better defensively than those two, and just as good as Yzerman? I understand it's your opinion, or whatnot, but how would you actually substantiate that claim?

*grabs popcorn*

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03-25-2013, 12:56 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
No, THIS is hilarious. Modano, who never received a single Selke vote during the 90s before the Gainey to Hitchcock changeover, and even then relatively rarely even figured in the top 10 in Selke voting... better defensively than those two, and just as good as Yzerman? I understand it's your opinion, or whatnot, but how would you actually substantiate that claim?

*grabs popcorn*
Modano during the the deadpuck era, 1997-2003 was better defensively than either of the avs stars and just as good as yzerman, this is based on watching him play all of those years, no explanation needed. He was as close to fedorov-gilmour as you'll get. A clear notch above sakic-forsberg.

Selke voting is based on how many points you score while being good defensively, unless you think 2001 sakic was actually better defensively than 97-2001 modano, lol.

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03-25-2013, 01:01 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Modano during the the deadpuck era, 1997-2003 was better defensively than either of the avs stars and just as good as yzerman, this is based on watching him play all of those years, no explanation needed. He was as close to fedorov-gilmour as you'll get. A clear notch above sakic-forsberg.
Based on watching them play all those years, I think a LOT more explanation is needed. I've submitted the Selke voting on top of observation, and I'll raise you the relative fortunes of their respective teams during their career overlap, so your turn.

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03-25-2013, 01:14 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Based on watching them play all those years, I think a LOT more explanation is needed. I've submitted the Selke voting on top of observation, and I'll raise you the relative fortunes of their respective teams during their career overlap, so your turn.
Sakic is better than Modano on defense because he got selke votes in a season where he scored 118 points, yeah great explanation. You dont see a pattern, gilmour and fedorov won thier selkes in the seasons where they scored the most points. I saw plenty of sakic-forsberg-modano, sakic was never as good defensively as modano and i wont be the only one to tell you that. Colorado's system was far more offense friendly than the stars.. I mean in the other posts you try to come off as the voice of reason, now i have to explain to you that Modano is better than Sakic defensively. Do your self a favour and watch more games from the deadpuck era. If you did, you wouldnt be debating this with me. Modano was clearly better defensively than sakic and forsberg.

Forsberg was 2nd in selke voting in 1997, he was NOT the 2nd best defnsive forward that season.

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03-25-2013, 02:27 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Modano was clearly better defensively than forsberg-sakic and just as good as Yzerman, this is hilarious.
That statement is utter BS.

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Modano during the the deadpuck era, 1997-2003 was better defensively than either of the avs stars and just as good as yzerman
If this were the case, Modano would have been the first-team center in 2000; Modano scored 81 points, Sakic scored 81 points (in 60 games), and Yzerman scored 79 points. Sakic lost votes due to games missed, and Yzerman won the 1C spot and the Selke. Modano ended up just edging out Sakic for the 2C, with Roenick (77 points) also in the mix.

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this is based on watching him play all of those years, no explanation needed. He was as close to fedorov-gilmour as you'll get. A clear notch above sakic-forsberg.
You say "fedorov-gilmour" as if Gilmour was close to Fedorov in defensive ability. Gilmour was a good defensive forward who peaked offensively from 1992-1994, and received particular notice in Selke votes because of the "wow" factor of an excellent two way forward having such a great offensive season. He was never anywhere close to the Selke outside of those two years.

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Selke voting is based on how many points you score while being good defensively, unless you think 2001 sakic was actually better defensively than 97-2001 modano, lol.
Sakic in the late 90s and early 2000s was probably comparable to Modano defensively. Not quite elite defensively, just below the top tier that included Yzerman, Fedorov, Lehtinen, Madden, Arvedson, Drake, Conroy, etc.

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Sakic is better than Modano on defense because he got selke votes in a season where he scored 118 points, yeah great explanation. You dont see a pattern, gilmour and fedorov won thier selkes in the seasons where they scored the most points.
Fedorov received the most first place votes in 1992, and finished second to Montreal's Guy Carbonneau. He scored 86 points. The next year he scored 87 and finished 4th (Gilmour had his career year and undeservedly won the trophy; Fedorov deserved to be a finalist again).

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I saw plenty of sakic-forsberg-modano, sakic was never as good defensively as modano and i wont be the only one to tell you that. Colorado's system was far more offense friendly than the stars.. I mean in the other posts you try to come off as the voice of reason, now i have to explain to you that Modano is better than Sakic defensively. Do your self a favour and watch more games from the deadpuck era. If you did, you wouldnt be debating this with me. Modano was clearly better defensively than sakic and forsberg.
As I mentioned, Modano played with Lehtinen (at almost all times) as well as having the big four of defensively skilled defensemen (Zubov/Sydor/Hatcher/Matvichuk) plus Craig Ludwig. Who did Sakic or Forsberg have on the ice to help them defensively? Adam Foote, Aaron Miller, Adam Deadmarsh... and that's about it for most of the DPE. Rob Blake in the second half of the DPE, but he was never great defensively. Chris Drury.

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Forsberg was 2nd in selke voting in 1997, he was NOT the 2nd best defnsive forward that season.
No, but Forsberg was still one of the league's best defensive forwards. And more importantly, he was better defensively than Modano, earlier than Modano, for a longer period than Modano.

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03-25-2013, 02:45 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
I was going to post this in the skill set thread but ill post it here instead. I just can't buy into the whole Sergei Fedorov "could do it all." I just have my disbelief in some of the excuses being made for him. I think for someone that supposedly had every tool in the toolbox should have stood out more than Fedorov did.
If you're going to base your judgement of Fedorov on what he should have done in a theoretical setting given the tools he had, then you are going to come away disappointed.

Just as those who try to use 1000 points, etc. as a HHOF benchmark regardless of era or lockout.

[quote]I've read that Fedorov never had good line mates to play with. Even if that was the case why was Fedorov never given better line mates? Yzerman was approaching his 30s while Fedorov was coming into his prime years. Certainly coming off a Hart trophy was evidence that Fedorov could be a a star player. But even after that Yzerman still got preferential line mates. That's where I find a problem. I Fedorov is still a number 2 center on his own team then how could he be one of the best players in the league. I know Yzerman was good but at that point he wasn't the same as the 1989 Yzerman. Even the line mates Fedorov did get to play with weren't as bad some make them out to be. But another question then arises, did Fedorov really make his line mates better? Slava Kozlov had better seasons later in his career at an older age. Same thing with Sykora, and Prospal.


Quote:
Selanne gets criticized for getting to play with Kariya. But it's a two way street. Selanne made Kariya a great player. He led Housley, McDonald, Zhamnov to career seasons. You could even argue he helped Corey Perry win a Hart trophy.
Kariya was better than Selanne when they played together, and did more for Selanne than the reverse. And let's not forget, Housley's passing, routing the entire offense through Selanne - who was free of defensive responsibilities - was a HUGE factor in Selanne's rookie season.

And in Zhamnov's career year, it's hard to argue Selanne led him to it; Zhamnov outscored Selanne by a fair bit that season.

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Now Fedorov had the chance to be the man in certain occasions. But he never really flourished offensively as much as Selanne. Fedorovs besides 1994 Fedorov never really had the offensive numbers to compete with Selanne.
Like that time, in 1994-95, when Fedorov scored 50 points in 42 games? Or 1995-96, when Fedorov scored 107 points and Selanne scored 108?

Hmm. Never.

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Now I understand that Fedorov was great defensively but I was under the impression that Fedorov didn't have to sacrifice offense for defense. Now the Wings also never won until Yzerman was leading the way again. Does that say that teams couldn't win with Fedorov as their best player? Probably not but its worth considering in the debates against Selanne.

Another thing that bothers me is that playing for the Red Wings supposedly didnt help Fedorov at all according to some people.
Offensively, specifically. Because Bowman implemented a defensive system and utilized more than just two lines for offense. When Bowman retired, and Dave Lewis was made coach (), Fedorov scored 83 points.

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Ill say first that Fedorov was fantastic in the playoffs and much better than Selanne in that regard. But people bring up his 4 straight 20 point playoffs quite often. But to make it far enough in the playoffs to get to those totals you have to be on a good team. If its being held against Selanne for not reaching high numbers in get playoffs then it has to be recognized that Fedorov played on teams great enough to make it deep in the playoffs to put up those totals. Again not taking anything away from from Fedorovs playoffs, he was great.
Part of the reason people bring it up? Only Fedorov, Trottier, and Bossy have done it.

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Another big thing that in my opinion puts Selanne over Fedorov is longevity. Fedorov to me was pretty much done as a good top six player at age 36. Selanne of course is still a top six player at age 42.
Last I heard he was being used on the third line, with Koivu centering the second line and Getzlaf on the first. Could be old info though.

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Lastly I think Fedorov didn't have as great of a career given his skillset which is considered by some the best of all time.
You can think Fedorov didn't have as great of a career relative to his skillset. But that wasn't the question; the question was simply who's better. If Selanne achieved 100% of his potential and Fedorov only 10%, but that 10% was greater than Selanne's maximum potential, then Fedorov wins.

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03-25-2013, 02:55 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
That statement is utter BS.



If this were the case, Modano would have been the first-team center in 2000; Modano scored 81 points, Sakic scored 81 points (in 60 games), and Yzerman scored 79 points. Sakic lost votes due to games missed, and Yzerman won the 1C spot and the Selke. Modano ended up just edging out Sakic for the 2C, with Roenick (77 points) also in the mix.



You say "fedorov-gilmour" as if Gilmour was close to Fedorov in defensive ability. Gilmour was a good defensive forward who peaked offensively from 1992-1994, and received particular notice in Selke votes because of the "wow" factor of an excellent two way forward having such a great offensive season. He was never anywhere close to the Selke outside of those two years.



Sakic in the late 90s and early 2000s was probably comparable to Modano defensively. Not quite elite defensively, just below the top tier that included Yzerman, Fedorov, Lehtinen, Madden, Arvedson, Drake, Conroy, etc.



Fedorov received the most first place votes in 1992, and finished second to Montreal's Guy Carbonneau. He scored 86 points. The next year he scored 87 and finished 4th (Gilmour had his career year and undeservedly won the trophy; Fedorov deserved to be a finalist again).



As I mentioned, Modano played with Lehtinen (at almost all times) as well as having the big four of defensively skilled defensemen (Zubov/Sydor/Hatcher/Matvichuk) plus Craig Ludwig. Who did Sakic or Forsberg have on the ice to help them defensively? Adam Foote, Aaron Miller, Adam Deadmarsh... and that's about it for most of the DPE. Rob Blake in the second half of the DPE, but he was never great defensively. Chris Drury.



No, but Forsberg was still one of the league's best defensive forwards. And more importantly, he was better defensively than Modano, earlier than Modano, for a longer period than Modano.
You clearly are talking out of your behind, gilmour was always a legit two way guy, Modano was better defensively than sakic and forsberg, this is getting ridiculous. I've seen modano play just as much as you have, i dont need you telling me whos better. By the way you are describing gilmour, i dont think you've seen much of him at all. Gilmour was always used in a defensive role, whether he was in st. louis, calgary or toronto, but i forgot according to you only the detriot players had legit selke games.

Funny how you bring up linemates when talking about the defensive play of Sakic-Forsberg in comparison to Modano, which just goes to show how clueless you always were. The Avalanche were far more offensive minded than the stars, like did you watch the deadpuck era at all? Linemates have nothing to do with individual defensive play. I'm sure you would give Fedorov 10 selkes wouldnt you.

You ever thought the defensive system in detriot and all the defensive players in detriot helped make yzerman look better defensively, but oh wait you cant criticize your precious detroit players, only defensive forwards from other teams.

Gilmour's selke voting:
1987-6th
1989-6th
1990-8th
1992-5th

Yeah he was never a legit two way guy, your making a fool out of yourself. Funny how your definition of the upper-echelon defensive players include 3rd line checkers and yzerman-fedorov, but you leave out every other defensive forward that had an offensive game. Like you are probably THE biggest red wings homer on the forum.

10% of Fedorov's potential is greater than all of Selanne's potential?


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03-25-2013, 04:15 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Sakic is better than Modano on defense because he got selke votes in a season where he scored 118 points, yeah great explanation. You dont see a pattern, gilmour and fedorov won thier selkes in the seasons where they scored the most points. I saw plenty of sakic-forsberg-modano, sakic was never as good defensively as modano and i wont be the only one to tell you that. Colorado's system was far more offense friendly than the stars.. I mean in the other posts you try to come off as the voice of reason, now i have to explain to you that Modano is better than Sakic defensively. Do your self a favour and watch more games from the deadpuck era. If you did, you wouldnt be debating this with me. Modano was clearly better defensively than sakic and forsberg.

Forsberg was 2nd in selke voting in 1997, he was NOT the 2nd best defnsive forward that season.
I applaud you for the comedy. Didn't expect any substance, just your opinion and authority, and wasn't disappointed. Okay, I'll up the ante even more. I've submitted the Selke voting comparison between all those guys, the relative team success of those guys, my own observation, AND I'll submit that Lehtinen built his reputation by being THAT much better of a defensive forward than Modano while handling more of the defensive load - on the same team, at roughly the same age, no less.

Now, are you going to continue to comment on the tone of my posts and/or myself, or are you going to defend your (seemingly minority) opinion that Modano ranks up there with all the names you mention in terms of exhibited defensive ability with anything besides:



My expectations are low, so thrill me.

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03-25-2013, 08:55 AM
  #536
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You clearly are talking out of your behind, gilmour was always a legit two way guy, Modano was better defensively than sakic and forsberg, this is getting ridiculous. I've seen modano play just as much as you have, i dont need you telling me whos better. By the way you are describing gilmour, i dont think you've seen much of him at all. Gilmour was always used in a defensive role, whether he was in st. louis, calgary or toronto, but i forgot according to you only the detriot players had legit selke games.
I said, although not in these exact words, that Gilmour was never an elite defensive forward. Saying he was "always a good defensive forward" about a good offensive forward makes him a *gasp* GOOD TWO-WAY FORWARD. Kind of like Yzerman, pre-Bowman.

Quote:
Funny how you bring up linemates when talking about the defensive play of Sakic-Forsberg in comparison to Modano, which just goes to show how clueless you always were. The Avalanche were far more offensive minded than the stars, like did you watch the deadpuck era at all? Linemates have nothing to do with individual defensive play. I'm sure you would give Fedorov 10 selkes wouldnt you.
Linemates can have an impact on results and perception both offensively and defensively. Modano had the benefit of playing years with one of the best defensive forwards of all-time often being on his wing.

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You ever thought the defensive system in detriot and all the defensive players in detriot helped make yzerman look better defensively, but oh wait you cant criticize your precious detroit players, only defensive forwards from other teams.
It's possible that Fedorov's 1996 Selke and Yzerman's 2000 Selke don't happen without the Wings playing defensive team hockey, even if they are just as good defensively. Then again, Fedorov's defense didn't drop off after 1996 and he stopped getting Selke votes in any significant manner. What happened? Right, right... the dreaded offensive cliff that occurred. Voters saw that, and felt that Fedorov was no longer the same player.

Quote:
Gilmour's selke voting:
1987-6th
1989-6th
1990-8th
1992-5th

Yeah he was never a legit two way guy, your making a fool out of yourself. Funny how your definition of the upper-echelon defensive players include 3rd line checkers and yzerman-fedorov, but you leave out every other defensive forward that had an offensive game. Like you are probably THE biggest red wings homer on the forum.
Yzerman's Selke voting:

18th (1988)
11th (1989)
14th (1993)
3rd (1996)
16th (1997)
9th (1998)
4th (1999)
1st (2000)
5th (2001)
46th (2004)

And my definition of upper echelon defensive checkers isn't "3rd line guys and Yzerman/Fedorov". For one thing, Lehtinen typically played on the first line, or sometimes on the second line.

Quote:
10% of Fedorov's potential is greater than all of Selanne's potential?
It was a random number to illustrate how judging a player against another based on who achieves more of his potential is stupid.

Would you have preferred Fedorov reaching 85% of his potential, and that potential being 20% greater than Selanne's based on skill set?

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03-25-2013, 03:36 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I applaud you for the comedy. Didn't expect any substance, just your opinion and authority, and wasn't disappointed. Okay, I'll up the ante even more. I've submitted the Selke voting comparison between all those guys, the relative team success of those guys, my own observation, AND I'll submit that Lehtinen built his reputation by being THAT much better of a defensive forward than Modano while handling more of the defensive load - on the same team, at roughly the same age, no less.

Now, are you going to continue to comment on the tone of my posts and/or myself, or are you going to defend your (seemingly minority) opinion that Modano ranks up there with all the names you mention in terms of exhibited defensive ability with anything besides:



My expectations are low, so thrill me.
You've provided selke voting thats based more on hype of great offensive seasons, wow you have really owned me in that regard. What do you really want me to do post clips from thier prime as a way to compare them, i really dont care if you provide statistical data as some way to think your so intellectual. I watched Sakic-Forsberg-Modano in thier primes on numerous occasions and based on thier play I rank Modano first, Forsberg second and Sakic as a comfortable third in regards to defensive play. You keep mentioning linemates, when its common sense that Sakic played on teams that were far more offensive minded and Sakic benefitted from the fact that opposing checkers were primarily trying to stop Forsberg, not him.

What have you really shown that Sakic was able to finish 2nd in selke voting during his big points season, and then never finish top 5 in selke voting again, as a means to him being the more responsible defensive forward? Wow bravo.

Why dont you make a thread comparing Modano-Sakic-Forsberg in terms of defensive play, and then add Doug Gilmour in the mix too, since both you and eva think hes nothing special defensively. Why are you afraid to make a poll? I know Modano will win hands down. I like Forsberg as a player much more than I like Modano, but to suggest he peaked higher defensively is blashphemous.

Im comparing Modano to other two way players, im not comparing him to pure grinders-checkers. No I dont think you've watched much of Modano at all, I'm sure of that.


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03-25-2013, 03:53 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I said, although not in these exact words, that Gilmour was never an elite defensive forward. Saying he was "always a good defensive forward" about a good offensive forward makes him a *gasp* GOOD TWO-WAY FORWARD. Kind of like Yzerman, pre-Bowman.



Linemates can have an impact on results and perception both offensively and defensively. Modano had the benefit of playing years with one of the best defensive forwards of all-time often being on his wing.



It's possible that Fedorov's 1996 Selke and Yzerman's 2000 Selke don't happen without the Wings playing defensive team hockey, even if they are just as good defensively. Then again, Fedorov's defense didn't drop off after 1996 and he stopped getting Selke votes in any significant manner. What happened? Right, right... the dreaded offensive cliff that occurred. Voters saw that, and felt that Fedorov was no longer the same player.



Yzerman's Selke voting:

18th (1988)
11th (1989)
14th (1993)
3rd (1996)
16th (1997)
9th (1998)
4th (1999)
1st (2000)
5th (2001)
46th (2004)

And my definition of upper echelon defensive checkers isn't "3rd line guys and Yzerman/Fedorov". For one thing, Lehtinen typically played on the first line, or sometimes on the second line.



It was a random number to illustrate how judging a player against another based on who achieves more of his potential is stupid.

Would you have preferred Fedorov reaching 85% of his potential, and that potential being 20% greater than Selanne's based on skill set?
You do know that I intentionally left out seasons where Gilmour finished 1st and 2nd in selke voting, and numerous other seasons where he was outside the top 10. Showing Yzerman's selke voting in seasons where he ranked 15th to 46th is nothing but desperation.

Lindros had a much higher potential than alot of guys that are ranked above him, should he jump up 60 spots on the all time lists?

Modano may have a had a great winger on his line, but playing under Ken Hitchcock's system made him take on far more defensive responsibilities than either forsberg or sakic had to worry about under thier offensive loaded system, maybe download a few games from that era and it will re-shape your memory.

You just said in your own words that Fedorov stopped getting major selke recognition once his offense dropped, so why is selke voting being brought up in the first place. Oh yeah thats right, because you've watched very little of gilmour and modano, thats why.

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03-25-2013, 04:51 PM
  #539
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Federov has my vote for "most overrated player of his generation."

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03-25-2013, 06:18 PM
  #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You've provided selke voting thats based more on hype of great offensive seasons, wow you have really owned me in that regard. What do you really want me to do post clips from thier prime as a way to compare them, i really dont care if you provide statistical data as some way to think your so intellectual. I watched Sakic-Forsberg-Modano in thier primes on numerous occasions and based on thier play I rank Modano first, Forsberg second and Sakic as a comfortable third in regards to defensive play. You keep mentioning linemates, when its common sense that Sakic played on teams that were far more offensive minded and Sakic benefitted from the fact that opposing checkers were primarily trying to stop Forsberg, not him.

What have you really shown that Sakic was able to finish 2nd in selke voting during his big points season, and then never finish top 5 in selke voting again, as a means to him being the more responsible defensive forward? Wow bravo.

Why dont you make a thread comparing Modano-Sakic-Forsberg in terms of defensive play, and then add Doug Gilmour in the mix too, since both you and eva think hes nothing special defensively. Why are you afraid to make a poll? I know Modano will win hands down. I like Forsberg as a player much more than I like Modano, but to suggest he peaked higher defensively is blashphemous.

Im comparing Modano to other two way players, im not comparing him to pure grinders-checkers. No I dont think you've watched much of Modano at all, I'm sure of that.
The classic "I can't drum up the same kind of defense for my opinion, and your opinion differs from mine, so you must not have watched them" angle.

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03-25-2013, 09:24 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If you're going to base your judgement of Fedorov on what he should have done in a theoretical setting given the tools he had, then you are going to come away disappointed.

Just as those who try to use 1000 points, etc. as a HHOF benchmark regardless of era or lockout.
This part my argument was more to just say I think his skillset is overrated.

Quote:
Kariya was better than Selanne when they played together, and did more for Selanne than the reverse. And let's not forget, Housley's passing, routing the entire offense through Selanne - who was free of defensive responsibilities - was a HUGE factor in Selanne's rookie season.

And in Zhamnov's career year, it's hard to argue Selanne led him to it; Zhamnov outscored Selanne by a fair bit that season.
I don't know about this. Kariya in his own right was a star but did he ever really have an elite season without Selanne? Selanne showed he could still rack up points without Kariya in his career. Phil Housley had a career year playing with Selanne. I don't see what you're arguing there. The offense went through Selanne because he was one of the best offensive players in the league. Why wouldn't you put him in an offensive friendly situation if he's capable of leading the team?

Zhamnov I won't argue as much but he still did have a career season with Selanne. It wasn't Zhamnov carrying Selannne.

Quote:
Like that time, in 1994-95, when Fedorov scored 50 points in 42 games? Or 1995-96, when Fedorov scored 107 points and Selanne scored 108?

Hmm. Never.
Sellanne's fifth best offensive season vs Fedorov's second best. And Fedorov still didn't outscore him.
Quote:
Offensively, specifically. Because Bowman implemented a defensive system and utilized more than just two lines for offense. When Bowman retired, and Dave Lewis was made coach (), Fedorov scored 83 points.
Guys like Shanahan, Yzerman, Lidstrom, even Larionov outscored Fedorov under the same Bowman system. Sadly 2003 is probably Fedorovs 4th best season.
Quote:
Part of the reason people bring it up? Only Fedorov, Trottier, and Bossy have done it.
Yes and all three are great players. But they all played for stacked teams that went deep in the playoffs. My point is that it's more of a circumstance thing and that Fedorov was lucky to be in the situation to let him get Deep in the playoffs every year.

Quote:
Last I heard he was being used on the third line, with Koivu centering the second line and Getzlaf on the first. Could be old info though.
He's still a top six forward for them despite his age. Even as recent as last season he led them in scoring. You can't really argue that Selanne was vastly better than Fedorov post lockout.

Quote:
You can think Fedorov didn't have as great of a career relative to his skillset. But that wasn't the question; the question was simply who's better. If Selanne achieved 100% of his potential and Fedorov only 10%, but that 10% was greater than Selanne's maximum potential, then Fedorov wins.
As I said in the first sentence of this post I was going to post this in the skillset thread. So maybe just ignore that part because I didn't mean that to be in comparison to Selanne.

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03-25-2013, 11:05 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You've provided selke voting thats based more on hype of great offensive seasons, wow you have really owned me in that regard. What do you really want me to do post clips from thier prime as a way to compare them, i really dont care if you provide statistical data as some way to think your so intellectual. I watched Sakic-Forsberg-Modano in thier primes on numerous occasions and based on thier play I rank Modano first, Forsberg second and Sakic as a comfortable third in regards to defensive play.
Modano over Sakic is fair. Forsberg was easily the best defensive player of the three.

Quote:
You keep mentioning linemates, when its common sense that Sakic played on teams that were far more offensive minded and Sakic benefitted from the fact that opposing checkers were primarily trying to stop Forsberg, not him.
That is not always true; different situations against different teams resulted in different priorities for the defense. Forsberg's injury history also resulted in Sakic being the ONLY scoring center on the team for long stretches.

Quote:
What have you really shown that Sakic was able to finish 2nd in selke voting during his big points season, and then never finish top 5 in selke voting again, as a means to him being the more responsible defensive forward? Wow bravo.

Why dont you make a thread comparing Modano-Sakic-Forsberg in terms of defensive play, and then add Doug Gilmour in the mix too, since both you and eva think hes nothing special defensively.
I said he was overrated in his 93 and 94 seasons as far as his defense and Selke voting are concerned. Your own position regarding Sakic, as well as Gilmour's Selke voting compared to his offense, should apply back to this in support of MY argument. I never said he wasn't good defensively. I think he was better than Modano or Forsberg/Sakic. I think Yzerman was not far behind him pre-1994 and after 1994 Yzerman was clearly the better defensive player. Yzerman from 1994 on also played better defense than Gilmour did at any point in his career, IMHO.

Quote:
Why are you afraid to make a poll? I know Modano will win hands down. I like Forsberg as a player much more than I like Modano, but to suggest he peaked higher defensively is blashphemous.
I think both players are overrated in general and defensively; largely the two factors are related. For example, many people rank Modano as the best American forward, or even player, of all-time. This ignores Frank Brimsek, Brett Hull (if included in the list), Pat LaFontaine, Mark Howe, Brian Leetch, and Rod Langway. All of them were better players.

Quote:
Im comparing Modano to other two way players, im not comparing him to pure grinders-checkers. No I dont think you've watched much of Modano at all, I'm sure of that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You do know that I intentionally left out seasons where Gilmour finished 1st and 2nd in selke voting, and numerous other seasons where he was outside the top 10. Showing Yzerman's selke voting in seasons where he ranked 15th to 46th is nothing but desperation.
So a better representation, just using their top-five seasons, would be :

Yzerman
1st (2000)
3rd (1996)
4th (1999)
5th (2001)
9th (1998)

Gilmour
1st (1993)
2nd (1994)
5th (1992)
6th (1987)
6th (1989)

Even for wins and top-threes. Yzerman has more top-fives. Gilmour has more top-sixes and top-tens. They are even for top-11s. And Yzerman's didn't come in his offensive peak after developing a reputation as "he's kind of good defensively". Rather, he changed his play to devote himself more to defense and it caused higher finishes.

Quote:
Lindros had a much higher potential than alot of guys that are ranked above him, should he jump up 60 spots on the all time lists?
If Fedorov was ranked based on his potential (based on what he showed at an early age), against other players' actual results, he'd be ranked as a top-five all-time center - and perhaps even player.

Quote:
Modano may have a had a great winger on his line, but playing under Ken Hitchcock's system made him take on far more defensive responsibilities than either forsberg or sakic had to worry about under thier offensive loaded system, maybe download a few games from that era and it will re-shape your memory.
More responsibilities is not the same as better. That's equivalent to saying "Goalie A is better than Goalie B because he made more saves during the season." without regard for how many games were played, how many goals were allowed, or the ability of the defense to limit shots and scoring chances. Not to mention special teams.

Quote:
You just said in your own words that Fedorov stopped getting major selke recognition once his offense dropped, so why is selke voting being brought up in the first place. Oh yeah thats right, because you've watched very little of gilmour and modano, thats why.
Wayne Gretzky won the Art Ross in 1993-94 and was named to the second-team, but received zero Hart votes. Zero. The "second-best center" in the NHL wasn't even worth considering over Adam Graves (named on six of ballots, 0-1-5). Not to mention those players who actually received first-place votes (Fedorov 31, Hasek 6, Vanbiesbrouck 7, Gilmour 4, Roy 3, Bourque 2, and Stevens 1). Gilmour played with Andreychuk all season in 93-94, and his scoring went down while Andreychuk's remained the same (and Andreychuk ended up as a top-ten scorer). Andreychuk outscored Luc Robitaille by 13 points. Why was Gilmour not the second team center, and what made him more valuable than Gretzky, whose team had worse defense and goaltending? With Tomas Sandstrom and Jimmy Carson both missing most of the season, Mike Donnelly was the team's fourth-highest scoring forward. His 42 points are low for a team's 4th-best forward NOW, let alone in 1993-94.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryBettman View Post
Federov has my vote for "most overrated player of his generation."
Forsberg? Niedermayer? At the time, Forsberg and Fedorov were generally considered equals for most of the rivalry period, with Forsberg taking a clear edge at the end and the older Fedorov being clearly the better player right when Forsberg entered the league in 1994-95.

As for Niedermayer, he was basically considered a "good" defenseman until the early 2000s, and then he almost out of nowhere gets the Norris. Should have been Pronger that year and in 2007.

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03-25-2013, 11:34 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Modano over Sakic is fair. Forsberg was easily the best defensive player of the three.



That is not always true; different situations against different teams resulted in different priorities for the defense. Forsberg's injury history also resulted in Sakic being the ONLY scoring center on the team for long stretches.



I said he was overrated in his 93 and 94 seasons as far as his defense and Selke voting are concerned. Your own position regarding Sakic, as well as Gilmour's Selke voting compared to his offense, should apply back to this in support of MY argument. I never said he wasn't good defensively. I think he was better than Modano or Forsberg/Sakic. I think Yzerman was not far behind him pre-1994 and after 1994 Yzerman was clearly the better defensive player. Yzerman from 1994 on also played better defense than Gilmour did at any point in his career, IMHO.



I think both players are overrated in general and defensively; largely the two factors are related. For example, many people rank Modano as the best American forward, or even player, of all-time. This ignores Frank Brimsek, Brett Hull (if included in the list), Pat LaFontaine, Mark Howe, Brian Leetch, and Rod Langway. All of them were better players.







So a better representation, just using their top-five seasons, would be :

Yzerman
1st (2000)
3rd (1996)
4th (1999)
5th (2001)
9th (1998)

Gilmour
1st (1993)
2nd (1994)
5th (1992)
6th (1987)
6th (1989)

Even for wins and top-threes. Yzerman has more top-fives. Gilmour has more top-sixes and top-tens. They are even for top-11s. And Yzerman's didn't come in his offensive peak after developing a reputation as "he's kind of good defensively". Rather, he changed his play to devote himself more to defense and it caused higher finishes.



If Fedorov was ranked based on his potential (based on what he showed at an early age), against other players' actual results, he'd be ranked as a top-five all-time center - and perhaps even player.



More responsibilities is not the same as better. That's equivalent to saying "Goalie A is better than Goalie B because he made more saves during the season." without regard for how many games were played, how many goals were allowed, or the ability of the defense to limit shots and scoring chances. Not to mention special teams.



Wayne Gretzky won the Art Ross in 1993-94 and was named to the second-team, but received zero Hart votes. Zero. The "second-best center" in the NHL wasn't even worth considering over Adam Graves (named on six of ballots, 0-1-5). Not to mention those players who actually received first-place votes (Fedorov 31, Hasek 6, Vanbiesbrouck 7, Gilmour 4, Roy 3, Bourque 2, and Stevens 1). Gilmour played with Andreychuk all season in 93-94, and his scoring went down while Andreychuk's remained the same (and Andreychuk ended up as a top-ten scorer). Andreychuk outscored Luc Robitaille by 13 points. Why was Gilmour not the second team center, and what made him more valuable than Gretzky, whose team had worse defense and goaltending? With Tomas Sandstrom and Jimmy Carson both missing most of the season, Mike Donnelly was the team's fourth-highest scoring forward. His 42 points are low for a team's 4th-best forward NOW, let alone in 1993-94.



Forsberg? Niedermayer? At the time, Forsberg and Fedorov were generally considered equals for most of the rivalry period, with Forsberg taking a clear edge at the end and the older Fedorov being clearly the better player right when Forsberg entered the league in 1994-95.

As for Niedermayer, he was basically considered a "good" defenseman until the early 2000s, and then he almost out of nowhere gets the Norris. Should have been Pronger that year and in 2007.
How would fedorov be that high based off potential when Bobby Clarke was playing selke defense and winning multiple harts, let me guess Fedorov is better defensively than him too?. Mikita and Clarke were elite defensive forwards with a significantly better offensive game, Fedorov would have never overtaken Beliveau or Trottier either.

As for Gilmour-Yzerman comparison, Gilmour was finishing that high in selke voting during the seasons he was top 5-10 in scoring, yzerman only seemed to finish high in selke voting when his offense disappeared and played for a far more defensive minded teams. Which made him appear better defensively, gilmour overall was the more impactful defensive player and unlike yzerman, he was able to have great playoff runs with underdog teams, while yzerman was a notorious choker until he played for stacked and loaded teams. Gilmour's 1993 and 1994 playoff runs were far more impressive than yzerman's, steve needed a roster full of hall of famers.

Gretzky recieved zero hart votes because the media got sick and tired for voting for him ever thought about that. The toronto maple leafs in 1994 were nowhere near as stacked as detriot, have fedorov and gilmour switch teams and Gilmour wins the hart instead of sergei.


Last edited by ushvinder: 03-25-2013 at 11:42 PM.
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Old
03-25-2013, 11:42 PM
  #544
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Career: Teemu Selanne
Prime: Sergei Fedorov (I say this because one can argue that Selanne peaked early and then settled into a slightly lower but good consistency). If he had never left Detroit, I think he could have ended up with 500 goals and close to 800 assists (he finished with 483 and 696).
Peak: Selanne

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03-26-2013, 01:13 AM
  #545
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
How would fedorov be that high based off potential when Bobby Clarke was playing selke defense and winning multiple harts, let me guess Fedorov is better defensively than him too?. Mikita and Clarke were elite defensive forwards with a significantly better offensive game, Fedorov would have never overtaken Beliveau or Trottier either.
So if Fedorov had ten more years like his 1993-94 season instead of what he did have the rest of his time with Detroit, you still wouldn't consider him better than Clarke or Trottier?

Quote:
As for Gilmour-Yzerman comparison, Gilmour was finishing that high in selke voting during the seasons he was top 5-10 in scoring, yzerman only seemed to finish high in selke voting when his offense disappeared and played for a far more defensive minded teams. Which made him appear better defensively, gilmour overall was the more impactful defensive player and unlike yzerman, he was able to have great playoff runs with underdog teams, while yzerman was a notorious choker until he played for stacked and loaded teams. Gilmour's 1993 and 1994 playoff runs were far more impressive than yzerman's, steve needed a roster full of hall of famers.
Ok, let's play a game. I'm going to rank their seasons in order of how they ranked in league PPG (min 50GP)

Yzerman
PPG RankSelkeSeasonNotable achievements
3rd11th1989Won Pearson, 3rd in Hart/AS voting
4th18th19884th in Hart/AS voting despite only 64GP
5th14th19938th Hart, 5th AS
18th1st20008th Hart, 1st AS
19th16th1997 
20th4th199912th Hart, 6th AS
22nd9th199819th Hart, Conn Smythe trophy
23rd3rd199618th Hart
36th5th200154GP; 21st Hart
67th46th2004 

Gilmour
PPG RankSelkeSeasonNotable achievements
5th6th19875th Hart, 5th AS
8th2nd19944th Hart, 3rd AS
9th1st19932nd Hart, 3rd AS
19th6th1989 
21st5th19929th Hart
23rd14th1997 
25th8th1990 
27th13th1991 
54th19th1996 
111th12th1985 
126th24th1986 

Gilmour's top couple seasons aren't bad, but for the most part he's an average top-six two-way center when you take all of these years as a whole. Decent first liner, excellent second liner. Yzerman was the kind of guy you built your team around in all aspects; PP, PK, ES play. He played on the scoring line and the checking line in his prime, and the level he was on at his best was surpassed only by Gretzky and Lemieux among his contemporaries. But Yzerman/Gilmour is an argument best saved for another thread.

Quote:
Gretzky recieved zero hart votes because the media got sick and tired for voting for him ever thought about that. The toronto maple leafs in 1994 were nowhere near as stacked as detriot, have fedorov and gilmour switch teams and Gilmour wins the hart instead of sergei.
Fedorov didn't have a linemate like Andreychuk. He played a few shifts with Yzerman at the start of the season, but that's about it. As for "tired of voting blah blah" you think that's true of every single voter? They didn't want to put Gretzky on their ballot just because they were sick of Gretzky? I don't buy it. Why? He wasn't on the ballot the previous year as he had only played 45 games. So "tired of Gretzky" is silly. Gretzky was voted 2nd team in 97 and 98... if they were tired of Gretzky how did that happen? If anything those are very generous in being voted for Gretzky.

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03-26-2013, 01:14 AM
  #546
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Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 View Post
Peak: Selanne

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03-26-2013, 02:31 AM
  #547
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So if Fedorov had ten more years like his 1993-94 season instead of what he did have the rest of his time with Detroit, you still wouldn't consider him better than Clarke or Trottier?



Ok, let's play a game. I'm going to rank their seasons in order of how they ranked in league PPG (min 50GP)

Yzerman
PPG RankSelkeSeasonNotable achievements
3rd11th1989Won Pearson, 3rd in Hart/AS voting
4th18th19884th in Hart/AS voting despite only 64GP
5th14th19938th Hart, 5th AS
18th1st20008th Hart, 1st AS
19th16th1997 
20th4th199912th Hart, 6th AS
22nd9th199819th Hart, Conn Smythe trophy
23rd3rd199618th Hart
36th5th200154GP; 21st Hart
67th46th2004 

Gilmour
PPG RankSelkeSeasonNotable achievements
5th6th19875th Hart, 5th AS
8th2nd19944th Hart, 3rd AS
9th1st19932nd Hart, 3rd AS
19th6th1989 
21st5th19929th Hart
23rd14th1997 
25th8th1990 
27th13th1991 
54th19th1996 
111th12th1985 
126th24th1986 

Gilmour's top couple seasons aren't bad, but for the most part he's an average top-six two-way center when you take all of these years as a whole. Decent first liner, excellent second liner. Yzerman was the kind of guy you built your team around in all aspects; PP, PK, ES play. He played on the scoring line and the checking line in his prime, and the level he was on at his best was surpassed only by Gretzky and Lemieux among his contemporaries. But Yzerman/Gilmour is an argument best saved for another thread.



Fedorov didn't have a linemate like Andreychuk. He played a few shifts with Yzerman at the start of the season, but that's about it. As for "tired of voting blah blah" you think that's true of every single voter? They didn't want to put Gretzky on their ballot just because they were sick of Gretzky? I don't buy it. Why? He wasn't on the ballot the previous year as he had only played 45 games. So "tired of Gretzky" is silly. Gretzky was voted 2nd team in 97 and 98... if they were tired of Gretzky how did that happen? If anything those are very generous in being voted for Gretzky.
I'll play your game: Maybe from 88 to 92, Gilmour's coaches used him in a more defensive minded role and when he was given the opportunity to play 1st line minutes he produced elite offense and elite defense at the same time, something yzerman never did. I mean didn't his offense flourish as soon as he was traded halfway through the 1992 season. He spent the first 3 years of his career stuck behind federko and played a defensive role. Come 1986 playoffs and he shines offensively and leads the whole playoffs in scoring. I mean in 1987, the only people who outscored him were #99, 66 and 2 of gretzky's teammates. He wins that ross if gretzky and lemieux dont exist, and he was 6th in selke voting. In Calgary, Joe Neuwendyk and Theo Fleury were given 1st line minutes with Maccinnis, Gilmour was used in the defensive role with less ice time.

I'll take gilmour on my team over Yzerman in the playoffs 10 times out of 10. He put up staggering playoff numbers without the need of an entire roster of hall of famers aiding his ass.

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03-26-2013, 09:55 AM
  #548
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I'll play your game: Maybe from 88 to 92, Gilmour's coaches used him in a more defensive minded role and when he was given the opportunity to play 1st line minutes he produced elite offense and elite defense at the same time, something yzerman never did. I mean didn't his offense flourish as soon as he was traded halfway through the 1992 season. He spent the first 3 years of his career stuck behind federko and played a defensive role. Come 1986 playoffs and he shines offensively and leads the whole playoffs in scoring. I mean in 1987, the only people who outscored him were #99, 66 and 2 of gretzky's teammates. He wins that ross if gretzky and lemieux dont exist, and he was 6th in selke voting.
Isn't the normal argument in Messier vs. Yzerman that Messier would have produced MORE without Gretzky? How could Gilmour have beaten Messier if he scored an even higher amount than what beat Gilmour IRL?

Quote:
In Calgary, Joe Neuwendyk and Theo Fleury were given 1st line minutes with Maccinnis, Gilmour was used in the defensive role with less ice time.

I'll take gilmour on my team over Yzerman in the playoffs 10 times out of 10. He put up staggering playoff numbers without the need of an entire roster of hall of famers aiding his ass.
Yzerman had excellent playoff runs before the Wings were stacked. Also, the Flames were pretty damn stacked. And for your reference, Yzerman outplayed Gilmour in the 1993 series until he was injured in the middle of it.

But this Yzerman/Gilmour stuff is way off topic. To get us back on topic I will provide Fedorov's info (30GP for 1994-95 instead of 50, otherwise Josef Beranek's the only eligible player):

Sergei Fedorov
PPG RankSelkeSeasonNotable achievements
30th21st19912nd Calder, All-Rookie
25th2nd1992Most 1st place Selke votes
29th4th1993 
3rd1st1994Won Hart/Pearson/Selke/1AS; 4th GPG
9th4th19955AS
7th1st19965th Hart, 6AS(C), 5AS(LW), 6AS(RW)
42nd9th1997 
44th19th200112th Hart
40th8th2002 
13th8th20039th Hart, 5AS
33rd19th2004 
153rd32nd2007 
126th66th2008 
If we discount 1998 because he only played 21 games (due to contract situations), he was only left out of voting four times in his entire career; 1999, 2000, 2006, and 2009. And he only played 52 games in 2009, so he was unlikely to receive votes that year. In fact, of the years he missed, 1999 is the only one where he played more than 68 games. And it was the first time he had scored fewer than 30 goals or 63 points (disregarding the 21-games in 97-98 and pro-rating the 94-95 season).

Furthermore, I think this shows that his 1994 season is pretty darn good. He was 4th in GPG, 3rd in PPG, and won the Selke/Hart/Pearson trio and was named to the first all-star team. That's why people call it one of the best seasons of All-Time; because he was one of the most dominant, if not the most dominant player in the league in all areas of the game, not just goal scoring, or general offense, or just defense. Everything.

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03-26-2013, 10:43 AM
  #549
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Modano was clearly better defensively than forsberg-sakic and just as good as Yzerman, this is hilarious.
...and there goes any credibility you may have had.

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03-26-2013, 04:07 PM
  #550
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Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
...and there goes any credibility you may have had.
.... Coming from someone who offers no contribution or insight, doesnt seem like people disagree in the other thread.

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