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M. Richards, J. Carter trade in retrospect

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Old
03-26-2013, 12:44 AM
  #1
mibs
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M. Richards, J. Carter trade in retrospect

Hi all,

First I would like to mention this is not a troll thread or to cause any bashing. I would simply like to get some feedback from HF about the blockbuster trades that the Flyers made two years ago now that we know that Pronger will most likely call it a career.

In my opinion, i believe that the Flyers got an excellent return from both Richards and Carter, therefore it seems like a trade hey would make again regardless of Pronger's health. However, I remember reading at the the time (Unfortunately don't have any links) that one of the underlying cause for their departure was that the locker room was divided between Richards and Pronger, with management ultimately deciding to go with Pronger. Also I think that Giroux was breaking out and with Briere wanting to play center again, there was a surplus at the C position.

Now hypothetically, if Pronger was the one traded, and that Richards and Carter stayed with the Flyers, would that team be in a better position than now?

To summarize, would a core consisting of Richards and Giroux at C, and Briere with Carter on the wings be in better shape than the current Giroux ,Briere at C, with Simmonds, Voracek,Couturier and Schenn at Foward. Assume that both Carter and Ricahrds haven;t already one a cup.

Again, not looking to stir up any trouble or beat a dead horse.

Thanks

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03-26-2013, 12:45 AM
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Flyers got good value.
Kings got pieces that led to a Stanley Cup.

Both sides happy.

Rinse, wash and repeat.

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03-26-2013, 12:50 AM
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I dont believe the situation was such that the locker room was divided or that the Flyers had to pick between trading Pronger and Richards. The bottom line was that they believed Richards/Carters off ice behavior was negatively effecting the entire teams performance and made their choices accordingly.

To add- Carter ended up in LA via separate trade. No sense in comparing how the Kings vs the Flyers did since Philly didnt do a trade with LA on Carter. Beyond that, from a Flyers point of view, how well they made out between the 2 trades will be more clear once Schenn and Couturier develop.


Last edited by ean: 03-26-2013 at 12:56 AM.
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03-26-2013, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Flyers got good value.
Kings got pieces that led to a Stanley Cup.

Both sides happy.

Rinse, wash and repeat.
So Flyers do that trade again knowing they would be without Pronger a couple year later?

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03-26-2013, 01:00 AM
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Still too soon to tell. Also, people need to remember that Carter wasn't traded from the Flyers to the Kings. Some people seem to think the Flyers plopped them together in LA and they never looked back on the way to a Cup.

Either way, the debates on the Flyers board have stopped about why they were traded...because no one truly knows. The front office is never honest or forthcoming about their decisions, aside from the "we decided we couldn't win with those guys" Clarke threw out there, which seems like total BS.

I feel like the Flyers have won both trades, landing Voracek (leading scorer), Simmonds (3rd in points), Brayden Schenn who's certainly coming around (4th in points), an 8th round pick (Couturier), a 2nd round pick (traded for Grossmann), and a 3rd round pick (Nick Cousins)

Despite LA acquiring Carter and reaping a Stanley Cup, and the Flyers current spot in the standings, I feel like these moves set the Flyers up fairly well for many years to come, whereas I question the longevity of Mike Richards, as his style of play doesn't suit his body type well, and past injuries prove that.

I, as well as most Flyers fans didn't bat an eyelash when Carter was dealt, but were completely shocked when Richards was traded 30 mins later. But I'd do both trades again, no question.

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03-26-2013, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mibs View Post
So Flyers do that trade again knowing they would be without Pronger a couple year later?
If THAT'S the main question on the table, I doubt they'd be the exact same trades. They may try to obtain Voynov instead of Schenn, and draft Hamilton instead of Couturier. But yes, they trade them again for similar value.

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03-26-2013, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Flyers got good value.
Kings got pieces that led to a Stanley Cup.

Both sides happy.

Rinse, wash and repeat.
'pieces'

Kings got Richards for Simmonds, Schenn, and a 2nd.

Carter was traded to CBJ and then to LA.

You can't just bunch the trades together since one had nothing to do with the other

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03-26-2013, 01:08 AM
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They wouldn't be in a position to win now either way so they're probably better off having the younger players the have now.

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03-26-2013, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Still too soon to tell. Also, people need to remember that Carter wasn't traded from the Flyers to the Kings. Some people seem to think the Flyers plopped them together in LA and they never looked back on the way to a Cup.

Either way, the debates on the Flyers board have stopped about why they were traded...because no one truly knows. The front office is never honest or forthcoming about their decisions, aside from the "we decided we couldn't win with those guys" Clarke threw out there, which seems like total BS.

I feel like the Flyers have won both trades, landing Voracek (leading scorer), Simmonds (3rd in points), Brayden Schenn who's certainly coming around (4th in points), an 8th round pick (Couturier), a 2nd round pick (traded for Grossmann), and a 3rd round pick (Nick Cousins)

Despite LA acquiring Carter and reaping a Stanley Cup, and the Flyers current spot in the standings, I feel like these moves set the Flyers up fairly well for many years to come, whereas I question the longevity of Mike Richards, as his style of play doesn't suit his body type well, and past injuries prove that.

I, as well as most Flyers fans didn't bat an eyelash when Carter was dealt, but were completely shocked when Richards was traded 30 mins later. But I'd do both trades again, no question.
Excellent reply. Couldn't have hoped fora better response.

Although I don't think Carter landing with the Kings had a big impact for the Flyers. Trading two core players whom they drafted and signed to long term contracts would mean that managment wanted a fresh start, one led by pronger.

But if what you say is true, that it wasn't a "It's him or me" situation between Pronger and Richards, than I guess my question becomes irrelevant

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03-26-2013, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
'pieces'

Kings got Richards for Simmonds, Schenn, and a 2nd.

Carter was traded to CBJ and then to LA.

You can't just bunch the trades together since one had nothing to do with the other
ok, flyers not gonna make the playoffs this year. trade sucked for the flyers.

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03-26-2013, 01:29 AM
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ok, flyers not gonna make the playoffs this year. trade sucked for the flyers.
The trades revolved around a draft pick, a 19 year old, a 21 year old and a 23 year old. It's not about what they are doing now, it's about what they will be doing in 5 years form now.

As it stands, Voracek is breaking out and playing at a PPG pace while Wayne Simmonds would be playing at a 60 point pace in an 82 game season, the same pace Richards and Carter are currently playing on the West coast. The Flyers aren't feeling too bad about these trades. Especially considering those guys were the secondary pieces to Schenn and Couturier.

Of course the Kings would make the trade again any day.

And as far as the actual trades go, I would say they fleeced the Jackets but based on just hockey play, and not what he was doing after the games, I like the Kings side better in the Richards trade.

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03-26-2013, 01:42 AM
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Wasn't a HUGE fan of the trades then, and I'm still not.

Sure they got fair value for both Mike Richards and Jeff Carter but those trades:

1.) Exposed how classless of an organization the Philadelphia Flyers really were. Now I'm not one to use that term very liberally, but what kind of team signs two players on lifetime contracts at a discount rate, and then turns around and trades them away -- one of those players to a perennial bottom feeder at that.

2.) Set them back several years. Sure the pieces they got back (mostly Wayne Simmonds and Jakub Voráček) have been productive offensively but one must remember that both Richards and Carter were bred in the Philadelphia Flyers system and knew it inside out and their former captain, Richards in particular was the embodiment of prototypical "Flyers hockey." Furthermore, they are significantly better two-way players who would contribute vastly to a team lacking in team defensive structure.

The Philadelphia Flyers had just made Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals one season earlier, and after one 2nd round defeat you decide to blow up the core of your team and move in an entirely different direction? Sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

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03-26-2013, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
If THAT'S the main question on the table, I doubt they'd be the exact same trades. They may try to obtain Voynov instead of Schenn, and draft Hamilton instead of Couturier. But yes, they trade them again for similar value.
I agree with this completely. Retaining Richards and Carter wouldn't fill the void they have on D right now. If they had the foresight to see that injury, they could have made a trade to acquire some blueline assets instead of the young forwards they have. Though now that Briere is having injury trouble and his play is declining, I'm glad they have the players they have.

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03-26-2013, 01:50 AM
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The Kings got immediate payoff, the Flyers set themselves up real nice long-term, and Columbus got that top-pairing offensive d-man they needed so bad, and a guy who looks like he really wants to be there. Also trading away Richards/Carter allowed Philly to sign Bryz, which allowed CBJ to get Bobrovsky. Getting Schenn prompted Philly to trade JVR for other Schenn, so Toronto wins too. Everyone's a winner!

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03-26-2013, 01:58 AM
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I definitely think the Flyers would have been in a better situation if they had retained Richards and Carter. Part of the reason why they were traded was to make room for Bryzgalov, and they definitely shouldn't have committed the money to him. Giroux, Briere, and Richards would have been great down the middle. This is a team that was only a season removed from a Finals appearance; I think it was a brash move for sure. Losing in the Finals is as good a motivator as anything else, look at the Penguins.

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03-26-2013, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
'pieces'

Kings got Richards for Simmonds, Schenn, and a 2nd.

Carter was traded to CBJ and then to LA.

You can't just bunch the trades together since one had nothing to do with the other
When the trade was made, one had very little to do with the other (outside of the reasons why the trades were made in the first place..) but they certainly can be lumped together at this point.

Both of Philly's trades ended up benefiting the Kings greatly. Both of Philly's trades also ended up giving major value to the Flyers.

CBJ is just the little kid who held onto your second shiniest new toy (Carter) for a little bit while you were too busy playing with your shiniest new toy (Richards).

Flyers still make the trade, though maybe they ask for Voynov instead of Simmonds and a 2nd.. or maybe they draft Hamilton at 7. Either way, that trade was hardly made for hockey reasons.. it was a locker-room issue.

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03-26-2013, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Wasn't a HUGE fan of the trades then, and I'm still not.

Sure they got fair value for both Mike Richards and Jeff Carter but those trades:

1.) Exposed how classless of an organization the Philadelphia Flyers really were. Now I'm not one to use that term very liberally, but what kind of team signs two players on lifetime contracts at a discount rate, and then turns around and trades them away -- one of those players to a perennial bottom feeder at that.

2.) Set them back several years. Sure the pieces they got back (mostly Wayne Simmonds and Jakub Voráček) have been productive offensively but one must remember that both Richards and Carter were bred in the Philadelphia Flyers system and knew it inside out and their former captain, Richards in particular was the embodiment of prototypical "Flyers hockey." Furthermore, they are significantly better two-way players who would contribute vastly to a team lacking in team defensive structure.

The Philadelphia Flyers had just made Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals one season earlier, and after one 2nd round defeat you decide to blow up the core of your team and move in an entirely different direction? Sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.
I love the Flyers but I agree with this completely.

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03-26-2013, 02:10 AM
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The Kings got immediate payoff, the Flyers set themselves up real nice long-term, and Columbus got that top-pairing offensive d-man they needed so bad, and a guy who looks like he really wants to be there. Also trading away Richards/Carter allowed Philly to sign Bryz, which allowed CBJ to get Bobrovsky. Getting Schenn prompted Philly to trade JVR for other Schenn, so Toronto wins too. Everyone's a winner!
Not to mention a 1st to Columbus. Great trade by Howson to recover from the Carter to CBJ deal.

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03-26-2013, 02:14 AM
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Failures for the Flyers. Both guys are legit top six centers. They did NOT get good value back for them.

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03-26-2013, 08:28 AM
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Voracek has 32 points in 31 games this year. That's great value for Carter considering they also got Couturier. Simmonds has 20 points in 28 games. That's good value for Richards considering they also got Schenn who has 19 points in 30 games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mibs View Post
So Flyers do that trade again knowing they would be without Pronger a couple year later?
I don't think they would have traded Richards if Pronger had suffered his career ending injury in the 2011 playoffs.


Last edited by Curufinwe: 03-26-2013 at 08:33 AM.
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03-26-2013, 08:49 AM
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Failures for the Flyers. Both guys are legit top six centers. They did NOT get good value back for them.
Carter returned a top line winger in Voracek and Couturier on top.

Richards got Simmonds (matching him in points) plus Brayden Schenn who will probably beat him repeatedly.

Flyers made out like bandits and these trades will look better and better as years go by.


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03-26-2013, 08:55 AM
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Also, people need to remember that Carter wasn't traded from the Flyers to the Kings. Some people seem to think the Flyers plopped them together in LA and they never looked back on the way to a Cup.

Either way, the debates on the Flyers board have stopped about why they were traded...because no one truly knows. The front office is never honest or forthcoming about their decisions, aside from the "we decided we couldn't win with those guys" Clarke threw out there, which seems like total BS.
I don't think the problem is forgetting where the Flyers traded Carter. The question is, should they have traded them at all?

Philadelphia shed two good forwards in their prime, deciding they couldn't win with them, and then those rejects went on to win it all that very year. They weren't dead weights or cancers after all.

You could say the Flyers wanted more young assets. Personally, I thought counting on Pronger's health lasting while the younger forwards developed was a riskier move. Pronger going down would have hurt the Flyers even if they still had Richards/Carter, but then one of them might have been traded for defense.

I'm sure everyone's going to imagine whatever alternate reality they like, though. It's impossible to prove.

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03-26-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Smokey McCanucks View Post
The Kings got immediate payoff, the Flyers set themselves up real nice long-term, and Columbus got that top-pairing offensive d-man they needed so bad, and a guy who looks like he really wants to be there. Also trading away Richards/Carter allowed Philly to sign Bryz, which allowed CBJ to get Bobrovsky. Getting Schenn prompted Philly to trade JVR for other Schenn, so Toronto wins too. Everyone's a winner!
No, they did not. Of all the major pieces (Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek and Couturier) they got in return, none of them addressed their problem on D or average goaltending. As good as I think Couturier will be, I thought they would definitely go with Dougie because they lack(ed) defensive prospects. This forced them to make silly trades like Schenn for JVR

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03-26-2013, 09:04 AM
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I would make both of those trades again in an instant, and I never bought into the off-ice rumors involving Carter and Richards. One of them (Carter being more likely) pretty much had to be moved to clear cap space for Bryzgalov. The Bryzgalov signing was the real stimulus for these trades. The offer for Richards from LA was too good to refuse, so he was dealt as well. Giroux is better than either Richards or Carter, he needed to be the #1 C. Getting B Schenn and the #8 overall pick (in addition to Simmonds and Voracek) made these deals no-brainers imo. And don't forget that the Flyers used the draft pick they got (I think from LA but don't remember for sure) to acquire Grossman.

And if Homer had landed either Suter or Weber this off-season we're probably not even having this conversation.

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03-26-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
No, they did not. Of all the major pieces (Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek and Couturier) they got in return, none of them addressed their problem on D or average goaltending. As good as I think Couturier will be, I thought they would definitely go with Dougie because they lack(ed) defensive prospects. This forced them to make silly trades like Schenn for JVR
They didn't really have immediate problems on D when these trades were made. They still had a healthy (though aging) Pronger and Matt Carle. D wasn't really an issue then (in management's minds). And the goaltending issue was supposed to be addressed by signing Bryzgalov, which preceded the trades.

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