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M. Richards, J. Carter trade in retrospect

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Old
03-26-2013, 10:08 AM
  #51
aemoreira1981
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Didn't like the trades at the time, but I think that Philly made out pretty well. That said, if the Flyers knew that they would need a defenseman, I doubt that Brayden Schenn is a part of the trade. However, in Philly's defense, every player that the Flyers got in the trades is currently a regular roster player. But at the same time, I am leaning to still being against the trades because if the locker room was the problem, keeping in mind that Scottie Upshall and Joffrey Lupul had been traded, I'd have traded just Jeff Carter and kept Mike Richards, who is a great two-way player.

These trades---I don't have a problem with in terms of value received here.

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03-26-2013, 10:09 AM
  #52
flyin_finn
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Richards had third most TOI and tied Kopitar on shifts per game during Kings' Cup run.

Flyers got two top-tier young forwards in their mid- to early 20's.

I would do the trade again in retrospect from either perspective.

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03-26-2013, 10:14 AM
  #53
CanuckistanFlyerfan
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Originally Posted by salty justice View Post
The Flyers didn't get fleeced in either deal, but they lost the Richards trade.

If the Kings were to shop Richards right now, with his great contract, he'd land you 2 1st's and a top 6 forward minimum.

Put Carter and Richards back on the Flyers, sign a Pronger replacement with half of Bryzgalov's money and a better goalie with the other half, and the Flyers would be top 4 in the East now and for years to come. Ultimately that albatross along with Pronger's retirement is costing them more than losing Carter Richards.

I know there are lots of Pronger replacements available, especially at $2.5 million a year, but can you point to a specific team willing to trade that player to the Flyers?

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03-26-2013, 10:14 AM
  #54
Jill Sandwich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CASUAL KEV View Post
1) You should watch him sometime. He actually scores.

2) Richards is a 40-50 point player not a 70-80 point player.

3) Sutter pretty much matches Staal at a lower cost for Pitt
1) When Carter played in Philadelphia he was their version of James Neal; incredible shot but no ability to create for himself.

2) When Richards was traded he was a 70-80 point player. If Schenn becomes a 70-80 point player on the Flyers, he'll replacing that. If Schenn becomes a 40-50 point player, that is axiomatically less than the production the Flyers already had.

3) Disagree. I'm not a Pens fan who underrated players once they change jerseys. Jordan Staal made that line one of the very best checking lines of the last decade. Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy has been demonstrably less effective.

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03-26-2013, 10:21 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jill Sandwich View Post
1) When Carter played in Philadelphia he was their version of James Neal; incredible shot but no ability to create for himself.

2) When Richards was traded he was a 70-80 point player. If Schenn becomes a 70-80 point player on the Flyers, he'll replacing that. If Schenn becomes a 40-50 point player, that is axiomatically less than the production the Flyers already had.

3) Disagree. I'm not a Pens fan who underrated players once they change jerseys. Jordan Staal made that line one of the very best checking lines of the last decade. Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy has been demonstrably less effective.
I'm not going to disagree with Richard's value, but this is actually wrong. In his last two seasons with the Flyers, Richards played 81 and 82 games but only had 62 and 66 points those two years. It led to a lot of speculation if Richards could ever get back to that PPG pace again.

Plus, why does Schenn have to become a 70-80 point player to replace that? There was another player in that deal, one who has already outscored Richie since they traded uniforms and brings just as many intangibles. That would be Simmonds. If Schenn just becomes an average second line center, they would have still replaced the production that they lost with Richards, setting aside a defensive advantage that Richards might have.

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03-26-2013, 10:23 AM
  #56
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Would Philly have made these trades if Pronger was knocked out before hand?

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03-26-2013, 10:24 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill Sandwich View Post
1) When Carter played in Philadelphia he was their version of James Neal; incredible shot but no ability to create for himself.

2) When Richards was traded he was a 70-80 point player. If Schenn becomes a 70-80 point player on the Flyers, he'll replacing that. If Schenn becomes a 40-50 point player, that is axiomatically less than the production the Flyers already had.

3) Disagree. I'm not a Pens fan who underrated players once they change jerseys. Jordan Staal made that line one of the very best checking lines of the last decade. Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy has been demonstrably less effective.
While I think that Schenn will be at least as good as Richards, you can't evaluate the trade by just comparing those two and leaving out Simmonds and the 2nd round pick that turned into Grossman. The Flyers got excellent value for Richards any way you look at it.

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03-26-2013, 10:29 AM
  #58
Jill Sandwich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
I'm not going to disagree with Richard's value, but this is actually wrong...
The dip in production is valid, if your prefer expanding it to a 60-80 point player that's fine. I'd rest at 70 being Richards usual total if he continued to play in Philly.

But talking about the addition of Simmonds, even if let's say Simmonds and Schenn combine to match Richards production, it does qualify as less valuable; a 120 point Crosby is worth more than three 40 point players.

In most cases I hold that the team that receives the best player wins the trade. Very rarely does depth or even prospects 'balance out' a trade. Look at the Hossa-Dupuis for Armstrong-Christensen-Esposito-1st trade... Pittsburgh wins that trade because they got the best player...

Pascal Dupuis XD

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03-26-2013, 10:32 AM
  #59
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Flyers are happy with the value they got.
Kings are happy because they won the cup.
Columbus got bent over.

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03-26-2013, 10:41 AM
  #60
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Its sad how these types of threads end up mutating into some bashfest on one player or another. The only team that loses in any of this is C-Bus. Even then, they eventually received JMFJ and a first and look like they are establishing a foundation for the future.

As a King fan, losing Simmonds was rough. In LA's system he was viewed expendable though because at the time LA thought they had someone similar in Clifford. Wayne was never going to be afforded the opportunities he was given in Philly because they had really pigeon toed him into that 3rd line (which he excelled). Schenn was viewed as a player who at his best may become Richards so that was never a tough question.

The idea that Richards is no longer a special player comes from people who only look at numbers and don't watch the games. Without Richie, LA doesn't win the cup. They might not sniff the 2nd round. Just because he wasn't the ONLY piece, doesn't mean he wasn't a KEY piece.

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03-26-2013, 10:41 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill Sandwich View Post
The dip in production is valid, if your prefer expanding it to a 60-80 point player that's fine. I'd rest at 70 being Richards usual total if he continued to play in Philly.

But talking about the addition of Simmonds, even if let's say Simmonds and Schenn combine to match Richards production, it does qualify as less valuable; a 120 point Crosby is worth more than three 40 point players.

In most cases I hold that the team that receives the best player wins the trade. Very rarely does depth or even prospects 'balance out' a trade. Look at the Hossa-Dupuis for Armstrong-Christensen-Esposito-1st trade... Pittsburgh wins that trade because they got the best player...

Pascal Dupuis XD
Richards is not Crosby, not even remotely close. And you're forgetting about Giroux, is at least maybe remotely close to Crosby. Giroux's offensive upside is far higher than Richards' and he's not bad defensively either. So unlikely that Richards is a 70 pt player on the Flyers second line. More likely close to what he got last year in LA. And now the Flyers have two top line wingers in Voracek and Simmonds to go with Giroux. And a good second line C in Schenn.

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03-26-2013, 10:42 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oranges View Post
Flyers are happy with the value they got.
Kings are happy because they won the cup.
Columbus got bent over.
But we gave Columbus Bob, so they can't be too unhappy.

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03-26-2013, 10:45 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by JackStraw View Post
I don't disagree with any of that. I wasn't crazy about the Pronger trade at the time (despite being a big Pronger fan) and I wanted them to take Hamilton (hard to argue with Couturier though). But the way I think and the way the Flyers FO thinks are two different things. They made no effort to keep Carle, which was a big mistake imo.
You should read what Tampa fans have to say about Carle's play this year. The Flyers are much better off without his bloated contract.

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03-26-2013, 10:47 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by salty justice View Post
Put Carter and Richards back on the Flyers, sign a Pronger replacement with half of Bryzgalov's money and a better goalie with the other half, and the Flyers would be top 4 in the East now and for years to come. Ultimately that albatross along with Pronger's retirement is costing them more than losing Carter Richards.
Just doing the bolded part would make the Flyers a top 4 team, you don't need to bring Richards and Carter back. The problem is getting a Pronger replacement is almost impossible. They tried last year with Weber, but Nashville matched.

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03-26-2013, 10:52 AM
  #65
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The Flyers traded a cup to the Kings

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03-26-2013, 10:56 AM
  #66
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I don't think Philly "lost" on either trade, but the timing was peculiar because they were essentially giving up on a team that had a great chance to win a cup. Of course, the Richards deal won't be able to be fully judged until we see what happens with Schenn's development. What it hinges on even more, IMO, is whether they keep the pieces they acquired or whether they trade them away in the same manner in a couple years in another bold, yet weird move.

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03-26-2013, 10:57 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
You should read what Tampa fans have to say about Carle's play this year. The Flyers are much better off without his bloated contract.
I actually know what your screen name is.

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03-26-2013, 11:02 AM
  #68
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Both Carter and Richards had NMC kicking in soon on top of long-term deals (Carter's was, I believe, an 11-year contract). The Flyers decided after they were almost defeated by Buffalo and then run out of the rink by Boston, that these two were not going to get it done as core players for the next decade.

So, they got maximum value for it. Anyone who is saying that this:

A) Hurts the team in the long run
- Completely incorrect because they saved money and got younger at forward. They also aren't hamstrung by the long-term deals of an aging Richards and Carter.

B) Hurts the team in the short term
- Maybe. Conceivably, they could have beaten Pittsburgh and New Jersey with Richards and Carter. But, those two were 0-2 against the Penguins in the playoffs and had already shown an inability to stop the duo of Malkin/Crosby. You can't say the same for Couturier, who was acquired for Carter and made quite a name for himself in that series. They still would not have much defense to speak of this year.

C) Negatively impacts the team's reputation and the odds of players coming to Philadelphia
- The most ridiculous of all the gripes. Spoken like a true bleeding-heart fan. These players know it is a business. They are getting paid millions of dollars regardless of where they play. No player is going to turn down millions because the Flyers, one of the storied franchises in the sport, traded two players a few years ago. [mod]


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03-26-2013, 11:05 AM
  #69
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The biggest issues with the trades are and will continue to be:
A) wasting the cap space the deals opened up on Bryz.
B) focusing their immediate Cup window on the already injured Pronger/Briere.

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03-26-2013, 11:08 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
A lot of this is hindsight at its finest though. Can't rely on a 37 year old hall of famer? Well, Detroit did it right up until the day that Lidstrom signed his retirement papers, and Pronger was certainly in that class. You can talk about Carle until you're blue in the face, but there are very few Flyers fans that would want Carle back at that price. He's just not that good of a player, and he certainly isn't the key reason for the struggles this year. He's already become the whipping boy for the Tampa fanbase because of his soft play and brutal turnovers.
Lidstrom relied on positioning and stick checking while Pronger was much more physical. I already said Carle wasn't worth that money, but when you replace Carle with L Schenn, your transition game is gonna suffer

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03-26-2013, 11:08 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by mibs View Post
So Flyers do that trade again knowing they would be without Pronger a couple year later?
I would say the Flyers do those trades BUT a D-man would be coming the other way in the deal. Maybe like a Voyonov instead of Simmonds or something like that. And of course if that is done, then LA probably doesn't deal Jack Johnson...so who knows how things shape up

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03-26-2013, 11:08 AM
  #72
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You don't trade a player like Mike Richards and "make out like bandits".

This isn't like trading a 4th liner for two Top-6 forwards. Philly got a great return but they would currently be better off on the ice if they retained Richards and Carter. This trade is all about the future so it COULD turn out great.
In what way? Voracek is comfortably outscoring Carter and Simmonds is matching Richards, that's based on their Philadelphia totals too by the way. We've also got Schenn, Couturier and Cousins on top! Richards was very good defensively but with the emergence of Giroux and the drafting of Couturier we've got that one almost covered.

Quote:
One in the hand is worth two in the bush, except on HF. I love Simmonds and Schenn should turn out to be very good but Richards is special and you know what he brings without question.

Nobody got fleeced in the deal, that's for certain.
I don't make out that people got fleeced (except Columbus) but we did very, very well. We're as good on the ice now and definitely better in the future.

The problems the Flyers have now are ones that wouldn't be fixed with Carter and Richards' trades overturned.

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03-26-2013, 11:11 AM
  #73
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Doesn't matter which way you cut it, Kings won a cup with having made those trades. Though Jeff Carter was initially acquired from the BJ's, it was still a smart move on the Kings part to reunite the two.

Flyers, well look at them in the standings right now. Giroux and company really stepped up last season, but this year has been a train wreck. However, a lot of factors contribute to their dismal season, none of which include a trade made two seasons ago. Flyers have proven they can be great without Richards/Carter. Only a matter of time till their core group starts clicking again.

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03-26-2013, 11:21 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
The Philadelphia Flyers had just made Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals one season earlier, and after one 2nd round defeat you decide to blow up the core of your team and move in an entirely different direction? Sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me.
Exactly my thoughts, then and now.

I get it, they wanted to change the culture. I still dont understand why they couldnt just trade Carter and see how Richards responded. That was a team that was ready to compete and win a cup, but instead they went for youth youth youth. Then they go out with all this newly created cap space, and immediately sign Bryz to another lower AAV lifetime contract, like the two they just rid themselves of. And then their newly anointed captain Pronger is gone 13 games into the season. I always felt like that was fate kicking their ***** for tossing out Carter and Richards.

If they had Carter and Richards still, I have no doubt they would still be a contender, and have the benefit of more experience. As it stands, they reloaded, and will have a couple of years of cheap, young talent before they inevitably have to (or decide to) break this core up. Maybe they will actually try to lock up and retain a young core this time.

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Old
03-26-2013, 11:33 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Wasn't a HUGE fan of the trades then, and I'm still not.

Sure they got fair value for both Mike Richards and Jeff Carter but those trades:

1.) Exposed how classless of an organization the Philadelphia Flyers really were. Now I'm not one to use that term very liberally, but what kind of team signs two players on lifetime contracts at a discount rate, and then turns around and trades them away -- one of those players to a perennial bottom feeder at that.
lol classless? you realize that this is a BUSINESS right? There are no promises. Management has to do what is best for the team/company. That was getting rid of the flakes that were Richards and Carter.

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