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M. Richards, J. Carter trade in retrospect

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Old
03-26-2013, 12:58 PM
  #101
JackStraw
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Originally Posted by ScoreZeGoals View Post
The problem I see is that a lot of Flyers fans are viewing the trade of Richards and trying to equate that to a loss of points and it being replaced by the players they got for him. Richards brings FAR more than points to the table and the Flyers are missing that while they rely on young players (Schenn and Couturier) who are nowhere near ready (if ever) to shoulder the type of play and leadership Richards brings. I understand the Carter trade, they wanted to bring-in a proven goalie, Carter had been injured an inconsistent in the playoffs, and he would bring back a nice return, but I'm of the opinion that you don't trade a player like Richards like that.
Again, you have to consider the GirouX-factor. The Flyers had plenty of leadership when they traded Richards; Timonen, Briere, and Pronger are all former captains. Hartnell had also developed into a leader on and off the ice. And then Giroux stepped right in when given the opportunity and basically seized ownership of the team. Personally, I think he's been a better captain than Richards was. I do agree that Richards' value is in more than just the numbers he puts up, and while that loss might have been felt early I think it's been well compensated for at this point.

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03-26-2013, 01:04 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
You act like Richards and Carter were the epitome of class. If the rumors about the locker room problems and excess partying were true, then the Flyers had every right to ship them out while they still could.
Then why sign them to these deals?

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03-26-2013, 01:11 PM
  #103
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[QUOTE=ScoreZeGoals;62447189]The problem I see is that a lot of Flyers fans are viewing the trade of Richards and trying to equate that to a loss of points and it being replaced by the players they got for him. Richards brings FAR more than points to the table and the Flyers are missing that while they rely on young players (Schenn and Couturier) who are nowhere near ready (if ever) to shoulder the type of play and leadership Richards brings. I understand the Carter trade, they wanted to bring-in a proven goalie, Carter had been injured an inconsistent in the playoffs, and he would bring back a nice return, but I'm of the opinion that you don't trade a player like Richards like that.[/QUOTE]

Except that maybe, just maybe Philly knew that trading Carter would make Richards become even more malcontent. Who knows. Also, Philly also got Simmonds for Richards. And a pick used to help get Grossmann.
So:
former #1 prospect in the world, a 2nd line power Forward who can score 25 goals, and a top 4 D-man who is #10 in the league in hits, and #5 in blocked shots(by D-men)

That is a good trade for both teams

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Old
03-26-2013, 01:15 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Then why sign them to these deals?
Who's to say they were exhibiting that behavior when they were signed? Long term contracts can change players priorities and focus.

EDIT: Just for the record, for the people who believe they were moved strictly in order to sign Bryz, ask yourselves this question: Why move both of them? They only needed to clear 5.6 million in cap space. They end up clearing double that by moving both. So that pretty much eliminates Bryz's contract as a reason. That tells you right there they could have kept Richards after dealing Carter. But no, they moved him too. Why? Not because he wasn't a great player. He was. So it wasn't because of Bryz's contract and it wasn't because he was a bad player. That pretty much tells you the rumored locker room troubles and excess partying were true and not just some ******** made up by the media.


Last edited by MP92: 03-26-2013 at 01:39 PM. Reason: want to add something
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Old
03-26-2013, 01:28 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Who's to say they were exhibiting that behavior when they were signed? Long term contracts can change players priorities and focus.
Please. The "Old City Gang" was around during the Upshall/Umberger days

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03-26-2013, 01:35 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post


I don't make out that people got fleeced (except Columbus) but we did very, very well. We're as good on the ice now and definitely better in the future.
Yep. The Flyers are definitely as good of a team today as the team that came within 2 wins of the cup

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03-26-2013, 01:40 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Please. The "Old City Gang" was around during the Upshall/Umberger days
So the Flyers tried to break up the gang, and asked them to stop drinking for a month and focus on hockey...and they refused. Maybe the Management was tired of trading off their buddies in trying to send a message, an finally had enough.

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03-26-2013, 01:44 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
Yep. The Flyers are definitely as good of a team today as the team that came within 2 wins of the cup
Probably not but it's worth remembering that that same team came within one shootout goal of missing the playoffs altogether.

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03-26-2013, 01:49 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Please. The "Old City Gang" was around during the Upshall/Umberger days
Yes that's true. But maybe management felt Upshall, Lupul and Umberger being moved would be a wake up call to Mike and Jeff to get their act together. They probably put faith into those two that they would learn from that. They apparently didn't. So they end up out the door as well.

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03-26-2013, 02:04 PM
  #110
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I don't get why the Flyers get so much credit for how these trades might turn out. As of now, they're further from a Cup win than they were before they made the trades. That's all that matters.

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03-26-2013, 02:09 PM
  #111
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All these posters saying that losing Richards/Carter set them back for years, you're wrong. Pronger has set the Flyers back. With Pronger hurt, I'd rather have the youth because if you swap Richards and Carter for Schenn/Couturier/Voracek/Simmonds on this team now, they still wouldn't do anything without Pronger. People like to **** on the Flyers but take a future HOF/Captain/top 5 dman of any team and they won't be able to replace him.

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03-26-2013, 02:14 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by CantbeatzPekka View Post
If im the flyers Id trade Pronger over my forward depth.

that just me though.
Trading Pronger didn't work out too well with other teams the next few years.

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03-26-2013, 02:18 PM
  #113
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For me LA wins the Richards trade slightly
and Philly wins the Carter trade

Really bad for Flyers is the JVR-Schenn swap
and the absolute cluelessness for gk-position
(contract for Bryzgalov, Boucher/Leighton, Bobrovsky trade)

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Old
03-26-2013, 02:20 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by hadrian View Post
I don't get why the Flyers get so much credit for how these trades might turn out. As of now, they're further from a Cup win than they were before they made the trades. That's all that matters.
They acknowledged that they may not be as good right away. The trades were made for long term success. Therefor, they can't be entirely judged yet.

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Old
03-26-2013, 02:24 PM
  #115
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Let's see,

Kings get Richards and Carter, win the cup, have two very good 2 way forwards locked up for a good cap hit. Kings solve need of lack of scoring depth and added experience and leadership.

Flyers get Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, Couturier, draft picks; replacements for the offensive guys they traded, none of which solves their defensive and goaltending issues. They are currently in the exact same situation they were in before the trades. Yay, reset button!

I'm sure this time will be different without all those old city guys partying it up! Oh wait, the whole Flyers team was just in Atlantic City partying and gambling just last week. Guess these guys don't care either. Better trade them too!

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Old
03-26-2013, 02:27 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MomoSissokko View Post
For me LA wins the Richards trade slightly
and Philly wins the Carter trade

Really bad for Flyers is the JVR-Schenn swap
and the absolute cluelessness for gk-position
(contract for Bryzgalov, Boucher/Leighton, Bobrovsky trade)
Schenn has probably been our best D man this year. Once he lost the weight he was forced to put on in Toronto, he's played just like his rookie season

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Old
03-26-2013, 02:28 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by DevilChuk View Post
Flyers got good value.
Kings got pieces that led to a Stanley Cup.

Both sides happy.

Rinse, wash and repeat.
It's wash, rinse and repeat.

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Old
03-26-2013, 02:28 PM
  #118
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I thought it was more between either keeping Richards/Carter or keeping the coach because they were not buying into his offensive system. Either way the trade has worked out for both teams and this looks to be Lavy's last season in Philadelphia.

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Old
03-26-2013, 02:29 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by SilkyMitts View Post
maybe when they signed those deals, the organization had faith in them. thats what i would assume. and then after the cup loss, and the early exit then ext year, they saw change in them and lost faith. simple as that. how is that hard to understand? it doesn't take long for someone to turn sour.
Carter was traded 7 months after signing his extension, not a year and a half.

Also, the Flyers are not in the same place as they were before these deals like several have stated. They are likely missing the playoffs for the first time since 06-07, which will probably result in firing the coach and possibly the GM as well as possibly amnestying the goalie who was brought in as part of Richards and Carter leaving


Last edited by ScoreZeGoals: 03-26-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old
03-26-2013, 02:48 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Lidstrom relied on positioning and stick checking while Pronger was much more physical. I already said Carle wasn't worth that money, but when you replace Carle with L Schenn, your transition game is gonna suffer
That's not true. Pronger rarely went for hits as they put you out of position. He hacked people in front of the net and in corners, but what made him great was his positioning, stick work, hockey sense, and offensive ability. He was physical in the sense that he never shied away from anyone, but not in the sense that he was constantly throwing hits, which is what leads you to breaking down.

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03-26-2013, 02:49 PM
  #121
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If goals and assists are the most important things to you, the Flyers won. If complete players who play ES, PP and SH are important to you, LA won the trades. I prefer players and teams who play a 200' game and don't end up putting extra pressure on their linemates, defencemen and goalies.

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03-26-2013, 02:51 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Still too soon to tell. Also, people need to remember that Carter wasn't traded from the Flyers to the Kings. Some people seem to think the Flyers plopped them together in LA and they never looked back on the way to a Cup.

Either way, the debates on the Flyers board have stopped about why they were traded...because no one truly knows. The front office is never honest or forthcoming about their decisions, aside from the "we decided we couldn't win with those guys" Clarke threw out there, which seems like total BS.

I feel like the Flyers have won both trades, landing Voracek (leading scorer), Simmonds (3rd in points), Brayden Schenn who's certainly coming around (4th in points), an 8th round pick (Couturier), a 2nd round pick (traded for Grossmann), and a 3rd round pick (Nick Cousins)

Despite LA acquiring Carter and reaping a Stanley Cup, and the Flyers current spot in the standings, I feel like these moves set the Flyers up fairly well for many years to come, whereas I question the longevity of Mike Richards, as his style of play doesn't suit his body type well, and past injuries prove that.

I, as well as most Flyers fans didn't bat an eyelash when Carter was dealt, but were completely shocked when Richards was traded 30 mins later. But I'd do both trades again, no question.
They won the trades.

Luckily hockey isn't about winning trades, it's about winning games.

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Old
03-26-2013, 02:54 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
If goals and assists are the most important things to you, the Flyers won. If complete players who play ES, PP and SH are important to you, LA won the trades. I prefer players and teams who play a 200' game and don't end up putting extra pressure on their linemates, defencemen and goalies.
Well no **** Richards/Carter are better all around players right now because they have 8 years of experience. You honestly don't think that Couturier/Schenn/Voracek/Simmonds can be 200' players? Couturier did something last year to Malkin as a 19 year old that Richards/Carter were never able to do in their time in Philly. [mod]


Last edited by mouser: 03-28-2013 at 01:44 AM. Reason: not necessary
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Old
03-26-2013, 02:55 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by skoods View Post
Both Carter and Richards had NMC kicking in soon on top of long-term deals (Carter's was, I believe, an 11-year contract). The Flyers decided after they were almost defeated by Buffalo and then run out of the rink by Boston, that these two were not going to get it done as core players for the next decade.

So, they got maximum value for it. Anyone who is saying that this:

A) Hurts the team in the long run
- Completely incorrect because they saved money and got younger at forward. They also aren't hamstrung by the long-term deals of an aging Richards and Carter.

B) Hurts the team in the short term
- Maybe. Conceivably, they could have beaten Pittsburgh and New Jersey with Richards and Carter. But, those two were 0-2 against the Penguins in the playoffs and had already shown an inability to stop the duo of Malkin/Crosby. You can't say the same for Couturier, who was acquired for Carter and made quite a name for himself in that series. They still would not have much defense to speak of this year.

C) Negatively impacts the team's reputation and the odds of players coming to Philadelphia
- The most ridiculous of all the gripes. Spoken like a true bleeding-heart fan. These players know it is a business. They are getting paid millions of dollars regardless of where they play. No player is going to turn down millions because the Flyers, one of the storied franchises in the sport, traded two players a few years ago. I laugh my butt off when the uninformed masses bring this up. It is just so ridiculously juvenile that I wonder if the people bringing that up are actually 12-years old.
What's funny and keeps going over people's heads over your final point is players are not going to keep from signing in Philly. They are not going to give the Flyers a discount. Flyer fans are already worried about Giroux's next contracts and that's a real concern. Do you think he's going to do management a favour by giving a discount after what happened? Timonen justt signed a one year extension for $6 million and he's a shell of the player we know and loved. Did he take a discount? No way! He isn't worth $6 million now and he won't a year from now.

And why don't we talk about Couturier. Last year Flyer fans wouldn't have traded him for Crosby and this year he's playing horribly and should be sent to the AHL. That's the thing about potential, you never know if it's going to pan out. In his case, we'd better hope it's nothing more than a sophomore slump.

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Old
03-26-2013, 02:55 PM
  #125
SilkyMitts
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Then why sign them to these deals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Please. The "Old City Gang" was around during the Upshall/Umberger days
there were numerous wake up calls for these guys that management thought they would respond to. Richards was extended in 2007. its not like he was signed and traded the next month. Carter was moved more quickly after he was given his extension.

Have you ever made a decision and then thought to yourself, "maybe I shouldnt have done that?". the flyers THOUGHT that richards and carter were who they wanted to base the team around, and when things looked like they were getting worse, they cut ties as anyone in their right mind would have. they owe those players nothing. they are simply employees.

.... seriously how is this that hard for you to understand

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