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M. Richards, J. Carter trade in retrospect

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Old
03-26-2013, 02:59 PM
  #126
SilkyMitts
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Originally Posted by ScoreZeGoals View Post
Carter was traded 7 months after signing his extension, not a year and a half.

Also, the Flyers are not in the same place as they were before these deals like several have stated. They are likely missing the playoffs for the first time since 06-07, which will probably result in firing the coach and possibly the GM as well as possibly amnestying the goalie who was brought in as part of Richards and Carter leaving
who said a year and a half?
it doesnt matter. honestly.

Edit: also, I doubt the coach is fired, i doubt the GM is fired, and i am not sure about bryzgalov. i really do not think anything major will come from this shortened season. we are a young team that needs to grow. i do not see any harsh changes being made due to a bad, shortened season.

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03-26-2013, 03:01 PM
  #127
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Flyers wanted to get younger-hence they are not contenders now. They may never be in the near future-it's always a risk when you do a semi-rebuild.

LA wanted to win a cup, and they did.

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03-26-2013, 03:02 PM
  #128
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If goals and assists are the most important things to you, the Flyers won. If complete players who play ES, PP and SH are important to you, LA won the trades. I prefer players and teams who play a 200' game and don't end up putting extra pressure on their linemates, defencemen and goalies.
Maybe give the 20-23 year olds time to develop into 2-way players?

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03-26-2013, 03:05 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by SilkyMitts View Post
who said a year and a half?
it doesnt matter. honestly.

Edit: also, I doubt the coach is fired, i doubt the GM is fired, and i am not sure about bryzgalov. i really do not think anything major will come from this shortened season. we are a young team that needs to grow. i do not see any harsh changes being made due to a bad, shortened season.
You're young up front but you aren't going anywhere with an aging defense as bad as the Flyer's top 6.

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03-26-2013, 03:06 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Maybe give the 20-23 year olds time to develop into 2-way players?
It's not like it matters, the Kings will have won the trade unless Philly wins the Cup, imo.

The Kings made the trade to win a Cup and did, really hard to trump that, especially if your team has a high percentage in the draft lottery.

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03-26-2013, 03:09 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by PantherDigest View Post
Flyers wanted to get younger-hence they are not contenders now. They may never be in the near future-it's always a risk when you do a semi-rebuild.

LA wanted to win a cup, and they did.
Why did they want to get younger? What was the point? Wouldn't the point be to get better? You know trade for players you actually need? Like defensemen and goaltending?

And LA wanted to win a cup? Shouldn't every team want this? Is there some sort of award for having the youngest and highest potential team in the league?

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03-26-2013, 03:11 PM
  #132
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The trade is a win-win. LA got the cup but going forward, I don't see how Richards/Carter hold more value than Couturier,Voracek, Schenn, and Simmonds. Within a few years, they will replace the defensive void they left and will easily out produce them offensively. This trade will continue to look better for Philly as those players develop and if LA can win another cup, it will go down as one of their better moves in team history.

Richards and Carter won the cup in LA because they were in a better position. They were by no means complimentary players as I have heard since they won the cup but they were not the most important pieces to that team.

It is hard to put a roster together for what the Flyers would look like now with Richards and Carter because so many pieces were moved with them. They still had the money to sign Bryz with Richards/Carter on the team so I'll include him in this lineup.

Hartnell-Giroux-X
Carter-Richards-JVR
Read-Briere-X

Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-X
X-X

Bryzgalov

That team is not going to win a Stanley Cup and other than Giroux/Read/Coburn, that team is on the decline. The loss of Chris Pronger cannot be overstated enough.

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03-26-2013, 03:11 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Why did they want to get younger? What was the point? Wouldn't the point be to get better? You know trade for players you actually need? Like defensemen and goaltending?

And LA wanted to win a cup? Shouldn't every team want this? Is there some sort of award for having the youngest and highest potential team in the league?
I agree with you completely. The Flyers wanted to win the Cup by getting younger. I think the Kings won the trade and the only way Philly challenges it is if they win a Cup.

Just a funny note, every sentence in your post was a question .

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03-26-2013, 03:12 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by PantherDigest View Post
You're young up front but you aren't going anywhere with an aging defense as bad as the Flyer's top 6.
lol at aging. All in their 20's except Timonen and Foster.

Timonen - 38
Foster - 31
Coburn - 28
Grossman - 28
Gervais - 28
Meszaros - 27
Gustaffson - 24
Schenn - 23

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03-26-2013, 03:13 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by PantherDigest View Post
I agree with you completely. The Flyers wanted to win the Cup by getting younger. I think the Kings won the trade and the only way Philly challenges it is if they win a Cup.

Just a funny note, every sentence in your post was a question .
Yes, it notes my complete confusion regarding Flyers planning

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03-26-2013, 03:13 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by SilkyMitts View Post
lol at aging. All in their 20's except Timonen and Foster.

Timonen - 38
Foster - 31
Coburn - 28
Grossman - 28
Gervais - 28
Meszaros - 27
Gustaffson - 24
Schenn - 23
Timonen is the only defenseman I'd want from that group and he's 38.

No true number 1. A terrible defensive system. Gustaffson? Gervais? Are you kidding me?
Schenn is trash. Another lost trade for Philly..
Meszaros is injured every year.

Grossman I'll give you, was pissed when you guys got him. That's about it.

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03-26-2013, 03:14 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Why did they want to get younger? What was the point? Wouldn't the point be to get better? You know trade for players you actually need? Like defensemen and goaltending?
They didnt feel that they were going to make progress with the team based around Richards and Carter. Holmgrens quote was along the lines of "Im not sure if we will be better, but we will be different"

..it has been said numerous times.

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03-26-2013, 03:15 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by PantherDigest View Post
Timonen is the only defenseman I'd want from that group and he's 38.

No true number 1. A terrible defensive system. Gustaffson? Gervais? Are you kidding me?
Schenn is trash. Another lost trade for Philly..
Meszaros is injured every year.

Grossman I'll give you, was pissed when you guys got him. That's about it.


Get back to us when you watch the games.

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03-26-2013, 03:15 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Why did they want to get younger? What was the point? Wouldn't the point be to get better? You know trade for players you actually need? Like defensemen and goaltending?

And LA wanted to win a cup? Shouldn't every team want this? Is there some sort of award for having the youngest and highest potential team in the league?
I don't know how many times you and others are going to overlook this. The Flyers did NOT NEED DEFENSE when they traded Richards and Carter. They had a top 5 of Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Coburn, and Meszaros. Four of them which literally played 95% of the time when they went to the Stanley Cup in 2010.

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03-26-2013, 03:16 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by PantherDigest View Post
I agree with you completely. The Flyers wanted to win the Cup by getting younger. I think the Kings won the trade and the only way Philly challenges it is if they win a Cup.

Just a funny note, every sentence in your post was a question .
wrong, the point of the trades was to get rid of a core that was leading the team in the direction that the management was not happy with.

you must be out of your mind if you thought that Holmgren and Snider thought they were just going to get younger and win a cup immediately.

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03-26-2013, 03:18 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by PantherDigest View Post
Timonen is the only defenseman I'd want from that group and he's 38.

No true number 1. A terrible defensive system. Gustaffson? Gervais? Are you kidding me?
Schenn is trash. Another lost trade for Philly..
Meszaros is injured every year.

Grossman I'll give you, was pissed when you guys got him. That's about it.

lol oh man.

Schenn has been arguably our best defensman all year.
Coburn/schenn/meszaros/grossmann are a great 2 to 5.
ill agree that the system they are in does not help them out. but they are great defenders.

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03-26-2013, 03:18 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
The trade is a win-win. LA got the cup but going forward, I don't see how Richards/Carter hold more value than Couturier,Voracek, Schenn, and Simmonds. Within a few years, they will replace the defensive void they left and will easily out produce them offensively. This trade will continue to look better for Philly as those players develop and if LA can win another cup, it will go down as one of their better moves in team history.
The trade is a win for LA-in terms of the only goal in professional hockey-to win a cup.

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Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
Richards and Carter won the cup in LA because they were in a better position. They were by no means complimentary players as I have heard since they won the cup but they were not the most important pieces to that team.
This is absolute speculation and adds nothing to the discussion. Had the Kings not had Richards or Carter they may have not made it nearly as far, they'd probably have missed the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
That team is not going to win a Stanley Cup and other than Giroux/Read/Coburn, that team is on the decline. The loss of Chris Pronger cannot be overstated enough.
Judging by the Flyer's defense and spot in the eastern conference, it doesn't look like that team is going to win a cup either .

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03-26-2013, 03:18 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by SilkyMitts View Post
lol at aging. All in their 20's except Timonen and Foster.

Timonen - 38
Foster - 31
Coburn - 28
Grossman - 28
Gervais - 28
Meszaros - 27
Gustaffson - 24
Schenn - 23
I like the Flyers a lot. They're one of the Eastern teams I actually watch quite a bit. But there really isn't much to brag about in that group of defenseman. There can't be many D groups in the league that look worse on paper...

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03-26-2013, 03:20 PM
  #144
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lol oh man.

Schenn has been arguably our best defensman all year.
Coburn/schenn/meszaros/grossmann are a great 2 to 5.
ill agree that the system they are in does not help them out. but they are great defenders.
On that defense that isn't saying much.

Coburn is a good 3/4. Schenn would be a bottom pairing for most contenders imo. Meszaros is injury prone.

Grossman is a good 3/4.

Not really a great puck moving bunch either. You guys just don't have a number 1 guy.

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03-26-2013, 03:21 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by SilkyMitts View Post
wrong, the point of the trades was to get rid of a core that was leading the team in the direction that the management was not happy with.

you must be out of your mind if you thought that Holmgren and Snider thought they were just going to get younger and win a cup immediately.
I don't think they thought they'd be going for the 1st overall pick this year, though.

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03-26-2013, 03:25 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by PantherDigest View Post
On that defense that isn't saying much.

Coburn is a good 3/4. Schenn would be a bottom pairing for most contenders imo. Meszaros is injury prone.

Grossman is a good 3/4.

Not really a great puck moving bunch either. You guys just don't have a number 1 guy.
its evident you dont know much of what you are talking about

all of those would be solid 2-4 guys on almost every team in the league.

Meszaros has been hurt this year, and that is it.
05/06 - 82 gp
06/07 - 82 gp
07/08 - 82 gp
08/09 - 52 gp
09/10 - 82 gp
10/11 - 81 gp
11/12 - 62 gp

pretty respectable if you ask me

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03-26-2013, 03:27 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by PantherDigest View Post
They did all those things to win a cup. Now they got Claude Giroux as captain, what a great leader.



You think they planned to be at the bottom of the east?

keep telling yourself that, buddy. LA Kings just took their picture in the White House.
richards and carter were not going to win a cup here in philly being the core of the team. they went to LA where a core was already in place.

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03-26-2013, 03:27 PM
  #148
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Well no **** Richards/Carter are better all around players right now because they have 8 years of experience. You honestly don't think that Couturier/Schenn/Voracek/Simmonds can be 200' players? Couturier did something last year to Malkin as a 19 year old that Richards/Carter were never able to do in their time in Philly. All Flyers fans loved Richards but you need to move on. You sound like a 5th grader whenever Richards and Carter are brought up.
There you go, when you don't like a comment you resort to insults. Can't say I blame you since the team looks god awful this season and so many fans are praying for a tank job (while also ripping the Penguins for doing the same in years past). Just enjoy Bryz till he's 40. By then we'll know if the guys who came over in the trades have developed or are still waiting to reach their potential. Maybe by then Homer and Lavi will be gone and someone will come in to teach the forwards about defensive responsibility.

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03-26-2013, 03:28 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by SilkyMitts View Post
its evident you dont know much of what you are talking about
Sure I do. I just don't have homer bias.


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Originally Posted by SilkyMitts View Post
all of those would be solid 2-4 guys on almost every team in the league.

Meszaros has been hurt this year, and that is it.
05/06 - 82 gp
06/07 - 82 gp
07/08 - 82 gp
08/09 - 52 gp
09/10 - 82 gp
10/11 - 81 gp
11/12 - 62 gp

pretty respectable if you ask me
he's been injured consistently in recent history. Thanks. He was injured in the playoffs last year too. And this year. I wouldn't say injuries aren't a concern.

2-4 is a big range. None of them are first pairing defensemen imo. Like I said, a lot of 2nd pairing defensemen. No depth at all. If one of them goes down the defense downgrades significantly.

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03-26-2013, 03:29 PM
  #150
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I am a big fan of the Flyers and I acknowledge, and am proud of, the Kings multiple connections to their franchise. I think both fan bases have some biases and misguided opinions when looking back on the trades. First and foremost being that everyone tends to look at both Richards and Carter as having been traded to the Kings directly. I know everyone understands Carter was traded to the Jackets, then the Kings, but that sort of veils what really happened. People see Richards and Carter traded away from Philly and then less than a calendar year later both lifting the Cup on the Kings. There was a lot that went on there in between. The Kings walked into a perfect situation with the Carter/Jackets debacle - an underperforming, reportedly disgruntled offensive star that had distinct ties to the Kings in Mike Richards, whose value was arguably much lower than it would have usually been, and having the assets (top pairing defenseman) that could get the trade done. If the Carter/Nash experiment in Columbus works out even marginally better than it did, Carter is still a Jacket right now and the Kings likely miss the playoffs or get knocked out in the first round. It was the perfect storm of a trade. People love to talk about "luck" on the Kings Cup run and point out all of these extraneous statistics, but fail to mention the only truly lucky aspect of the Kings in 11/12 - being in the right place at the right time to trade for a player like Jeff Carter.

One thing that everyone has to understand was that both Richards and Carter were walking into a perfect situation in LA at the time of their trades. Richards was joining a team that already had a bonafide top line center in Kopitar that shouldered most of the offensive and defensive responsibility. Richards had burdened himself with top line center duties in Philadelphia, as well as the captainship, and no longer had to carry those mantles in Los Angeles. He could simply play the same game he had always played, but with less media and coaching pressures.

At the time of the Carter trade, the Kings lacked a true, natural, goal scoring sniper. Carter didn't have to worry about being anything more than what he already was - a tremendously gifted offensive player with a hell of a shot. Literally, all the Kings wanted him to do was shoot the puck, a lot. At the time, the Kings were simply trying to make the playoffs - there were no Cup aspirations, no ultra-scrutiny from the media. They had a hell of a team on paper, as everyone saw, but had struggled to score goals all year, fired their coach mere weeks before, and were simply trying to put it all together. What they needed from and asked of Jeff Carter was to play the way he had always played - shoot the puck a lot and score some goals. But he, too, wasn't shouldered with any mantle of leadership nor even burdened with the lion's share of offensive or defensive responsibilities.

The number one thing people don't mention enough when talking about these trades is that the LA Kings were Dustin Brown and Anze Kopitar's team, through and through. Both players wore letters, both players had been with the team since drafted, and both players shouldered the ups and downs of the team as a whole. They were counted on by management, similar to Carter and Richards in Philadelphia, to lead the team to success. During their Cup run, it wasn't Richards, or Carter, or anyone else to lead the team to victory - it was Brown and Kopitar. This has always been their team and their success will continue to depend upon how well they're playing. What better situation for already ultra-talented players like Richards and Carter to step into? They simply had to play their games and back up the true leaders of the team. Neither were playing these secondary roles in Philly, especially Richards.

With Philly, I really don't believe they made huge mistakes in trading Richards ad Carter. They felt that was the move they needed to make at the time and they got very, very good returns. I feel that Philly gets a bad rep from all this because you look at the success of the Kings versus the non-success of the Flyers since these trades and the Richards/Carter trades drastically stand out. However, where LA's success has had more to do with Kopitar/Brown taking their game to another level due to finally having the backup in players of Richards/Carter's caliber, Philly's non-success is more tied to the unexpected, career ending injures of Chris Pronger and going all-in on a goaltender like Bryzgalov.

I don't think that Philly screwed up at all by trading Richards and Carter because look at the returns. I also don't think they screwed up with Pronger because, again, how do you see that coming? I think the only move Philly deserves any criticism for is the Bryzgalov signing, which burdened the team with a huge, arguably untradeable cap hit and inconsistent net minding.

tl;dr, criticize Philly for their goaltender situation over the past 10 years more than anything else, and it's not fair to look at what Richards and Carter accomplished on a different team in an entirely different situation

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