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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

199 points on 347 goals= 57%...untouchable

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Old
08-08-2006, 03:48 AM
  #301
alanschu
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Originally Posted by Whatever Man View Post
When has anybody ever quantified just how important weight lifting is to a hockey player, on this thread?

Everyone is just assuming I'm saying it means turning Steve Thomas into Maurice Richard. I've never said anything like that. But everyone jumps to conclusions.



I'm going to wear out this smiley.
You seem to be the one insisting how important it is. All the while ignoring some pretty darn important things like anticipation and the ability to read the play.


As for their level of dominance, I don't know of too many people on this thread that expected Gretzky to still score at the exact same rate as he did in the 80s. Though scoring at a 2.2 pt/game clip (the number you provided) is still a 180 point season, which is pretty freaking impressive. It's funny though. You said you couldn't see Gretzky scoring 190 points, but have no problems claiming he would probably score 180, like it's a world of difference. It's a damn impressive point total, and is far and away dominating the league.

Given that there was a post in this thread (not by you) that Bobby Orr wouldn't even be playing in the AHL if he were zapped forward to now, that you didn't seem to have a problem with since you couldn't be bothered to post about it, I'm not too surprised that people are being a bit "aggressive" in their defense of Gretzky and Orr.


Last edited by alanschu: 08-08-2006 at 03:59 AM.
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08-08-2006, 09:44 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Whatever Man View Post
So weight training DOES NOT make a player better?
It helps, but it's down the list of things that do help. Take the life story of your top 10 players, and you'll see things like: "I shot the puck at a target for hours every day", or "I played on our homemade rink for hours every day", but you're unlikely to see "I started weight lifting when I was x years old".

A guy that can benchpress 500+ lbs but can't skate isn't a hockey player, while a guy that can't benchpress 200 lbs but can skate like the wind might still have a shot at the NHL.

On ice vision and hockey sense have more to do with Forsberg's success than how much he works out, but obviously his strength and fitness have some impact. Rico Fata can skate faster than most players in the NHL, but even if he works out enough to look like Brind'Amour he isn't ever going to be one of the best players in the league.

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08-08-2006, 05:17 PM
  #303
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It helps

So weight training DOES help players become better?

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08-08-2006, 05:34 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
You seem to be the one insisting how important it is. All the while ignoring some pretty darn important things like anticipation and the ability to read the play.


As for their level of dominance, I don't know of too many people on this thread that expected Gretzky to still score at the exact same rate as he did in the 80s. Though scoring at a 2.2 pt/game clip (the number you provided) is still a 180 point season, which is pretty freaking impressive. It's funny though. You said you couldn't see Gretzky scoring 190 points, but have no problems claiming he would probably score 180, like it's a world of difference. It's a damn impressive point total, and is far and away dominating the league.

Given that there was a post in this thread (not by you) that Bobby Orr wouldn't even be playing in the AHL if he were zapped forward to now, that you didn't seem to have a problem with since you couldn't be bothered to post about it, I'm not too surprised that people are being a bit "aggressive" in their defense of Gretzky and Orr.
It is very important if you are going to be the only one in the league without any weight training.

I think 180 pts would be about the best he would get. Compared to his 215pts season that is a pretty significant drop, as I mentioned above. Remember, Gretzky had 6 seasons above 180pts.

Well I guess if people had been able to distinguish that particular comment from what I was saying, we likely would have saved some time.


Last edited by Whatever Man*: 08-08-2006 at 06:17 PM.
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08-09-2006, 02:13 AM
  #305
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It is very important if you are going to be the only one in the league without any weight training.
Gretzky was pretty much that guy when he was getting his 6 seasons above 180 points. It's not like Orr was chopped liver. There are a ton of people that do weight training in the NHL that still wouldn't be able to match the raw strength of certain individuals.

I'm an ectomorphic body type. I can develop a muscular physique, but it takes me much, much more time and effort compared to a mesomorph. Mesomorphs are those annoying guys that get 6-packs after doing a single situp. Genetics plays a huge role in body type and musculature, no matter how much testimonials for Bowflex assure you otherwise.

As for Gretzky "only" getting 180 points....who else has ever gotten 180 points in the league?

He did also play in a much higher scoring era, with differences in philosophy to the game. People are arguing that he'd be just as dominant, and typically cite how much of a lead he has as a percentage of points, not the raw point totals.

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08-09-2006, 02:42 AM
  #306
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I have no doubt Gretzky would still have excellent seasons.

Think of how little it would take to impact a players point totals. A foot race here, a battle on the boards there. A defenseman is a half a step quicker and gets better positioning defending a rush. It would all add up. Maybe the best he would do would be a 160, or a 150 pt season. Hard to say, but I think he was the best ever and I wanted to give him some credit.

Think of it this way. How much more could he have scored if he had won more physical battles?

Regardless of how many he did or did not win, (I don't need another Richard/Lindros fiasco) He had to lose a few over his carreer. What if he had simply won more?

Oh and Mario Lemieux would be the other guy to score 180.

Hey man, an ectomorphic body type is perfect for hockey. Strength without as much weight gain. Best for martial arts too.

As for the point totals: Other than Gretzky and his line mates the top scorers are scoring, last year anyway, about what they did in the 80's.

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08-09-2006, 02:51 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Whatever Man View Post
I have no doubt Gretzky would still have excellent seasons.

Think of how little it would take to impact a players point totals. A foot race here, a battle on the boards there. A defenseman is a half a step quicker and gets better positioning defending a rush. It would all add up. Maybe the best he would do would be a 160, or a 150 pt season. Hard to say, but I think he was the best ever and I wanted to give him some credit.

Think of it this way. How much more could he have scored if he had won more physical battles?

Regardless of how many he did or did not win, (I don't need another Richard/Lindros fiasco) He had to lose a few over his carreer. What if he had simply won more?

Oh and Mario Lemieux would be the other guy to score 180.

Hey man, an ectomorphic body type is perfect for hockey. Strength without as much weight gain. Best for martial arts too.
How much of Gretzky's game was winning physical battles? Not very much. How much of it was winning mental battles? Almost all.

Using Gretzky as an example of who would be helped by weight training is not a good one. Gretzky was weaker then almost everyone he played with or agianst his whole career. Even if he lifted a ton of weights if everyone else did he would still be weaker then they were.

Pick a physical player for your argument about weight training being a huge deal. Heck pick anyone but Gretzky.

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08-09-2006, 03:33 AM
  #308
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Hey man, an ectomorphic body type is perfect for hockey. Strength without as much weight gain. Best for martial arts too.
You don't gain nearly as much strength as a mesomorph would, who are the people that see the biggest benefits from weight training strength wise. As for being "best for martial arts," why would they bother separating people by weight class if the little guys had an advantage by being ectomorphic.

Besides, motivation and determination still seem to win out when it comes to "battling it out." Dennis Rodman was hardly the strongest player on the court, but still dominated bigger and stronger players when it came to rebounding, which is all about fighting it out.


Quote:
Think of it this way. How much more could he have scored if he had won more physical battles?
There's no guarantee that weight training would have resulted in him winnining a more significant amount of battles. You're just playing the whatif game. It discounts the impact that determination and anticipation have. Furthermore, given that Gretzky wasn't a strong player, serves as a counterpoint to your argument.

Gretzky spent pretty much his entire life playing against players that were bigger and stronger than him, and he made them look like fools. He scored 378 goals in his atom league, played tier 2 junior at 14, and Major Junior at 15. While growing up, he had to learn how to avoid players on the other teams taking runs at him (oddly enough, the tougher kids on the other team didn't like it when a player would score 10 goals on them).

At the ripe age of 37 he was still tied for 3rd with 90 points, 1 point out of second place. And don't even try stating it was because he evolved with the weight training. He had a history of back problems, and I highly doubt he was any stronger than he was when he was 30, while playing against younger, stronger, and faster opponents (and on a poor team to boot!)

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08-09-2006, 03:36 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
You don't gain nearly as much strength as a mesomorph would, who are the people that see the biggest benefits from weight training strength wise. As for being "best for martial arts," why would they bother separating people by weight class if the little guys had an advantage by being ectomorphic.

Besides, motivation and determination still seem to win out when it comes to "battling it out." Dennis Rodman was hardly the strongest player on the court, but still dominated bigger and stronger players when it came to rebounding, which is all about fighting it out.




There's no guarantee that weight training would have resulted in him winnining a more significant amount of battles. You're just playing the whatif game. It discounts the impact that determination and anticipation have. Furthermore, given that Gretzky wasn't a strong player, serves as a counterpoint to your argument.

Gretzky spent pretty much his entire life playing against players that were bigger and stronger than him, and he made them look like fools. He scored 378 goals in his atom league, played tier 2 junior at 14, and Major Junior at 15. While growing up, he had to learn how to avoid players on the other teams taking runs at him (oddly enough, the tougher kids on the other team didn't like it when a player would score 10 goals on them).

At the ripe age of 37 he was still tied for 3rd with 90 points, 1 point out of second place. And don't even try stating it was because he evolved with the weight training. He had a history of back problems, and I highly doubt he was any stronger than he was when he was 30, while playing against younger, stronger, and faster opponents (and on a poor team to boot!)
OK I'm done.

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08-09-2006, 03:38 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
How much of Gretzky's game was winning physical battles? Not very much. How much of it was winning mental battles? Almost all.

Using Gretzky as an example of who would be helped by weight training is not a good one. Gretzky was weaker then almost everyone he played with or agianst his whole career. Even if he lifted a ton of weights if everyone else did he would still be weaker then they were.

Pick a physical player for your argument about weight training being a huge deal. Heck pick anyone but Gretzky.

Why don't you go take someone else's post out of context?

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08-09-2006, 09:38 AM
  #311
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Why don't you go take someone else's post out of context?
Thought you were done?

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08-09-2006, 02:12 PM
  #312
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Thought you were done?
Thought you were smart.

I guess we're both wrong.

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08-09-2006, 03:42 PM
  #313
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Thought you were smart.

I guess we're both wrong.
Guess you're still not done ?

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