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How would you rate the teams in the West?

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Old
03-26-2013, 05:52 PM
  #326
canuck4life16
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I think Vancovuer has the strongest goaltending could give it edge over other teams

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03-26-2013, 05:53 PM
  #327
DyslexicTom
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Funny. I thought the point of hockey was score more goals than the opposition. The Kopitar line is an excellent one, but league best? No. One of the best in the West? Sure. Arguably.
You can't score without shots, and lines that generate more shots and deny the opposition shots give their teams a better chance to win. Is it really that difficult of a concept?

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03-26-2013, 05:54 PM
  #328
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ITT: People overvaluing the Minnesota Wild...
EVERY season. Without fail.

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03-26-2013, 05:58 PM
  #329
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
You're right. Mitchell + Greene probably make as much of an impact as Sharp and Hossa.

Same thing last year. Vancouver was missing Daniel Sedin, LA was missing Simon "5th round pick" Gagne, so that's also probably a wash.

Anyways, the Kings will see a first, maybe 2nd round exit, as will the Devils. Same as Boston, Vancouver, Chicago, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, or Detroit(every single SC finalist) from the past 3 years.
For a Kings team that is, outside of Scuderi, skating with a defense that has an average age of around 23, yeah getting one of Mitchell or Greene back would be important.

I love that our first Stanley Cup came in some small portion at the expense of the Canucks. I don't really care who you had or didn't have in the playoffs last season.

Every Kings fan would like to see them repeat, but even if they don't things are shaping up nicely for them to be a contender for the next 4-5 years. We're going to enjoy having the Canucks in our division (or conference) again.

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03-26-2013, 06:00 PM
  #330
tomgilbertfan
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
EVERY season. Without fail.
Oh yes this is clearly something that happens EVERY season.

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03-26-2013, 06:00 PM
  #331
Sojourn
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Originally Posted by DyslexicTom View Post
You can't score without shots, and lines that generate more shots and deny the opposition shots give their teams a better chance to win. Is it really that difficult of a concept?
No, no. I got it. Possession good. We should just ignore the fact that Corey Perry has a similar level of production as Kopitar, and Ryan Getzlaf has just flat out been better. It's not like games are won on the ice, not on paper.

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03-26-2013, 06:04 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
The Kings don't have Mitchell or Greene, so I agree. Every team has injuries. Getting either one of Mitchell or Greene back would be huge for the Kings.
I think Kings fans are going to have to stop living back there. Greene's out and if Mitchell comes back I'd be surprised if he's anywhere near 75%. Time to start referring to the Kings in terms of the roster now. Like most teams with this insane schedule players are going to start wearing down, especially if hard checking and is their bread and butters - hi octane offensive players are inevitably going to slump. Kings could just as easily get bounced.

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03-26-2013, 06:07 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
It's a little disingenuous to compare the current Koivu line to Brown-Kopitar-Williams, who have played together more often than not for three years now and regularly out-fenwick opposing team's top lines. They drastically outplayed Parise's line last year in the SCF and I don't think Koivu and rookie Coyle are that large of an improvement.

Not saying Parise-Koivu-Coyle aren't playing really well at the moment, but to compare them to an established, veteran line Brown-Kopitar-Williams is somewhat of a stretch.
Wait, you'd take Brown-Kopitar-Williams over Parise-Koivu-Coyle?

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03-26-2013, 06:07 PM
  #334
DyslexicTom
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
No, no. I got it. Possession good. We should just ignore the fact that Corey Perry has a similar level of production as Kopitar, and Ryan Getzlaf has just flat out been better. It's not like games are won on the ice, not on paper.
Your strict emphasis on the points column and the eyeball test is basically evaluating players on paper, too.

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Old
03-26-2013, 06:11 PM
  #335
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Anaheim is overrated. I like Boudreau but wait until you see them in the playoffs before thinking they'll win the Cup.

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03-26-2013, 06:12 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by mkoivu9 View Post
Wait, you'd take Brown-Kopitar-Williams over Parise-Koivu-Coyle?
I would and that's not taking anything away from that line.

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Old
03-26-2013, 06:15 PM
  #337
Sojourn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyslexicTom View Post
Your strict emphasis on the points column and the eyeball test is basically evaluating players on paper, too.
It certainly is, but my emphasis is on the results. I'm not about to deny the Kopitar line is a very good one, but I will absolutely laugh in your face when you try to argue it's better than another line because they possess the puck more.

Your entire argument basically comes down to: They possess the puck more, therefore they have the opportunity to be better, which means they are better.

I'm fine with the argument, up until that last part. At what point do the results not matter anymore? If Kopitar possesses the puck more, but he isn't as good offensively, doesn't that suggest that being able to cash in on your opportunities actually means something? And I'm not talking about in terms of shooting percentage, but in just getting **** done on the ice. Advanced stats have their place, but when you're trying to argue one line is better because of puck possession, and all else be damned, I think we're a little beyond what that place actually is.

Edit: Furthermore, using the stat in this manner basically says "Puck possession is the correct way to play." but, see, hockey players aren't the same. Different players have different strengths, and lines are designed around the strengths of the players. A fast speedy line might not be well equipped for a puck possession game. Instead, they may be much better on the transition, and at pouncing on the mistakes of the opposition. Another line might try to do nothing but possession, and are willing to hold on to the puck until they see an opening. Another line, in that same circumstance, might try to create an opening, and drive to the net. Sure, they risk losing the puck doing that, but if they create offense, and score, in that manner then it works.


Last edited by Sojourn: 03-26-2013 at 06:34 PM.
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Old
03-26-2013, 06:20 PM
  #338
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
For a Kings team that is, outside of Scuderi, skating with a defense that has an average age of around 23, yeah getting one of Mitchell or Greene back would be important.
I never said they wouldn't be important to their lineup. But comparing their impact to that of an elite offensive player with Selke calibre defense and another solid 1st line player with good defensive play is asinine.

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03-26-2013, 06:31 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by ENuck View Post
I think Kings fans are going to have to stop living back there. Greene's out and if Mitchell comes back I'd be surprised if he's anywhere near 75%. Time to start referring to the Kings in terms of the roster now. Like most teams with this insane schedule players are going to start wearing down, especially if hard checking and is their bread and butters - hi octane offensive players are inevitably going to slump. Kings could just as easily get bounced.
A definite possibility, but it has been said that Greene is ahead of schedule.

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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I never said they wouldn't be important to their lineup. But comparing their impact to that of an elite offensive player with Selke calibre defense and another solid 1st line player with good defensive play is asinine.
Not in the context of our team and where its struggles have come this season.

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03-26-2013, 06:34 PM
  #340
sobrio
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
A definite possibility, but it has been said that Greene is ahead of schedule.



Not in the context of our team and where its struggles have come this season.
Good to know, we have our hopes here in Van as well, speedy recovery to the players of both teams.

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03-26-2013, 06:41 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyslexicTom View Post
You can't score without shots, and lines that generate more shots and deny the opposition shots give their teams a better chance to win. Is it really that difficult of a concept?
It't not a difficult concept. But like with most simple concepts in a quite complex game, it's simplified and forced, with limited respect to the complexity of the game. Statistically, it works more often than not, which is why it has its values as a far better indicator than any other simple concept anyone has come up with.

Getzlaf himself could take an unhealthy amount of shots more per night. That would make his line look better instantly in those numbers. He doesn't, because it's clearly not the point of hockey. He would be a worse player if he did. His play in reality leads to more ("better") puck possession. Shots themselves statistically correlate with puck possession, but it's not a necessary correlation. Believing in puck possession isn't the same as believing in the imperfect shot-numbers that are - and have to be, for lack of a better alternative - used to identify it.

EDIT: Well, thanks Sojourn for dragging me into this. Couldn't resist after all. It's just so annoying.


Last edited by Vipers31: 03-26-2013 at 06:47 PM.
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Old
03-26-2013, 06:45 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
It't not a difficult concept. But like with most simple concepts in a quite complex game, it's simplified and forced, with limited respect to the complexity of the game. Statistically, it works more often than not, which is why it has its values as a far better indicator than any other simple concept anyone has come up with.

Getzlaf himself could take an unhealthy amount of shots more per night. That would make his line look better instantly in those numbers. He doesn't, because it's clearly not the point of hockey. He would be a worse player if he did.

EDIT: Well, thanks Sojourn for dragging me into this. Couldn't resist after all. It's just so annoying.
I'm a sadist. Suffer.

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03-26-2013, 06:52 PM
  #343
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I'll post my rankings and then perhaps dive into some of the discussions.

1. St. Louis Blues
2. Los Angeles Kings
3. Chicago Blackhawks
4. Anaheim Ducks
5. Vancouver Canucks
6. Detroit Red Wings
7. Minnesota Wild
8. San Jose Sharks

And at this point the rest don't matter.

St. Louis is the most diverse, structured, powerful team in the West right now. They have some issues to sort out, but they are built for playoff hockey and are my pick to win it.

Chicago is a little farther down the list mainly because I think the start-of-season point streak just took away from their motivation a little. They were playing to keep the streak alive, not to play for the Stanley Cup. If they can refocus and get back on track. they will battle for winning the West.

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03-26-2013, 06:56 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
You're right. Mitchell + Greene probably make as much of an impact as Sharp and Hossa.

Same thing last year. Vancouver was missing Daniel Sedin, LA was missing Simon "5th round pick" Gagne, so that's also probably a wash.


Anyways, the Kings will see a first, maybe 2nd round exit, as will the Devils. Same as Boston, Vancouver, Chicago, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, or Detroit(every single SC finalist) from the past 3 years.
That comparison is ridiculous. Two of our best defensemen are as dispensable as a guy sitting in the press box last year? Adding a healthy Mitchell and Greene to our backend would drastically change this team for the better.

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Originally Posted by ENuck View Post
I think Kings fans are going to have to stop living back there. Greene's out and if Mitchell comes back I'd be surprised if he's anywhere near 75%. Time to start referring to the Kings in terms of the roster now. Like most teams with this insane schedule players are going to start wearing down, especially if hard checking and is their bread and butters - hi octane offensive players are inevitably going to slump. Kings could just as easily get bounced.
This is amusing coming from a Canucks fan especially given the fact you guys keep bringing up the "soft first round matchup" argument because Sedin was out. Same thing.

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03-26-2013, 06:56 PM
  #345
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Kings don't have Mitchell & Greene, both hard nosed players that were amazing for us in the playoffs last year. Without them, we're not going to go too far in the playoffs this year. What scares me the most? I think Mitchell is done for the season, which is bad news, especially considering how amazing he was last year.

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03-26-2013, 07:00 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by mkoivu9 View Post
Wait, you'd take Brown-Kopitar-Williams over Parise-Koivu-Coyle?
Yes, and most GMs in the western conference would, as well. That's no disrespect to the Koivu line at all - they're very good right now. But Brown himself outplayed Parise at the highest level head to head last season in the SCF. Koivu is a fantastic center in the same mold as Kopitar, but is he better than Kopitar? I don't believe so. Coyle is a fantastic youngster with arguably more offensive upside than Williams, but Williams is an established commodity at this point in his career.

You be the judge.

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03-26-2013, 07:02 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by mkoivu9 View Post
Wait, you'd take Brown-Kopitar-Williams over Parise-Koivu-Coyle?
Yup. I mean, it's close, that is a very good line, but yup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
No, the poster said there aren't a lot of lines that Kopitar's won't beat handily head to head.
Correct. And I stick to that. Exceptions are probably Toews / Hossa / Saad (or whoever is in for Saad), Whatever the current composition of Geno's line is, and... yeah, that's basically it. If you put together Dats/Zetts/Franzen that would do it, but that's not an actual line at the moment. Crosby can beat a great line on his own some nights but I wouldn't bet on it in this case.

You may have an argument for Parise/Koivu/Coyle making for a close matchup, but I suspect they would still be handled and in any event the rest of the Wild lineup would be absoultely eaten alive by the bottom 9 on LA. Wild fans need to recognize, 6 in a row is nice and all, but your team's FC% is like 47% or some such, it's not going to end well for you guys at that rate. And as for the Ducks fan don't even make me laugh, your team is an illusion.

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03-26-2013, 07:08 PM
  #348
VladTheImpaler
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Originally Posted by mkoivu9 View Post
Wait, you'd take Brown-Kopitar-Williams over Parise-Koivu-Coyle?
As a Wings fan, I would take the Kopi line at this point in time. That could change in a year or two if Coyle keeps improving.

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03-26-2013, 07:10 PM
  #349
Ovechking
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Man, I think I'd take the Wild line.

Parise > Brown
Koivu = Kopitar
Coyle > Williams (it's very close right now, but has much higher potential imo)

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03-26-2013, 07:12 PM
  #350
Vipers31
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And as for the Ducks fan don't even make me laugh, your team is an illusion.
When reality is regarded (laughingly) as an "illusion", based on an artificial construct from imperfect numbers, you know you have entirely disconnected yourself from the game of hockey. It's a statistical anomaly, yes. One that isn't entirely difficult to explain with some perspective gained from what happens on the ice.

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