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Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"

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Old
03-26-2013, 03:52 PM
  #351
mesamonster
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Nope. I was more in the mold of
Bernie Parent meets Billy Smith...



RIP Gumpster... May 14, 1929 - January 27, 2007
he was a beaut!

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Old
03-26-2013, 04:24 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
they are the jokers in the deck. they are irrelevant to the outcome of the situation, but they are most certainly relevant to the entertaining subplot. and she keeps opening her mouth, so why should people not comment on that?

what is your point? that people aren't allowed to say, "hey, look what the clowns are up to now"?
Point being.... people don't want to talk about something by talking about it...... a lot.

Find some real logic in that argument for me.

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03-26-2013, 05:04 PM
  #353
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Point being.... people don't want to talk about something by talking about it...... a lot.... Find some real logic in that argument for me.
Ok. Logic + Logic = Illogic.... for example if I said "Im going to lose 5lbs by eating nothing but Moon Pies for 7 days because their lighter than earthly foods like fruits & vegetables", what would you think of that, about my state of mind?. Cuz thats what Ive been doin since Sunday... perfectly logical.

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03-26-2013, 05:10 PM
  #354
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TL, I think you are forgetting my previous response regarding IEH. I said that they were irrelevant to a local sale of the Coyotes. They are not irrelevant to a relatively innocuous internet discussion board that serves mostly for the entertainment of participants. They are actually part of the entertainment. I will be particularly entertained when they re-emerge with their latest "Plan B" to manage the Jobing.com without the Coyotes, thereby showing their true colours once and for all. I don't have a list like KevyD, but if I did, that prediction would be on it.

Then to paraphrase something you stated a few pages back.... their "15 minutes of fame" really aren't up yet.

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I think my previous allusion to Rosencrantz and Guildenstern was apt. The plot could go on without them, but they illustrate some important themes in the drama, while offering comic relief to those of us who like that sort of thing.

As for Clark, I happen to think that she was a consequential character in this whole drama, and that her approach has been irresponsible. Her internet musings now more fully reveal her perspectives and approaches as a council member. She is now gung-ho for firing city employees to preserve budget for an arena management fee, even though there is no potential deal on the table just now. She has stayed "engaged" in this discussion by her own volition.
She's being "engaged" by proxy..... so unless she's got an HFBoards account now (sorry Fugu ) the only way for her to be "engaged" in the discussion here is by people here giving credence to her blog.

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Please indicate which of her blog comments you think I have "stretched".
Your comment regarding her "gung-ho" position on firing employees for one. There is more than one way to balance a budget. Her blog pointed out Glendale has until 2017 to figure out how to pare itself down to something it can manage because the extra $22 million they get now from the sales tax increase won't be there. No where did I see her calling for mass-firings of employees. I did see her call for a gradual pare down in spending over the next 4 years, before the city faces "draconian cuts in 2017". So I ask is this being "gung-ho" for firing people? Is it irresponsible to point out the city needs to gradually work this in???

Note that the newly elected mayor was advocating pay raises for city employees just in the past week. Newly elected council member Chavira (Clark's successor) was calling for increased monies to the police and fire departments. Now who's being irresponsible??

In regards to her noting the city possibly raiding the $17million allotted for arena management to cover an outside audit..... didn't everyone just rip the city over using money from one department to cover expenses somewhere else???

How's Beacon supposed to sell an arena management deal for the city when it could possibly rob the fund that pays for it???

Or does taking it from arena management not seem as bad because of the potential to fulfill some other result you want????

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03-26-2013, 05:29 PM
  #355
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There is a feeling on the council that an extension would have to be considered. Without the 457 tax, the city would be bankrupt. AND, it isn't because of the Coyotes since 67% of that .7% tax increase goes to police and fire. In 4-5 years, another proposal may be needed to extend the time of the 'temporary' tax. The bet being that the economy will turn around by then and little to no cuts will have to be made.

Westgate is doing what it can to survive and putting in its own money so it doesn't cost the CoG a dime. Leveraging on the Tanger outlets, etc.

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03-26-2013, 05:40 PM
  #356
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In 4-5 years, another proposal may be needed to extend the time of the 'temporary' tax.
Have you ever known of a government, be it municipal, state/provincial or federal who
after introducing a temporary tax increase then actually repeals it as they'd promised?.

Like, ever?...

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03-26-2013, 06:34 PM
  #357
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Then to paraphrase something you stated a few pages back.... their "15 minutes of fame" really aren't up yet.



She's being "engaged" by proxy..... so unless she's got an HFBoards account now (sorry Fugu ) the only way for her to be "engaged" in the discussion here is by people here giving credence to her blog.



Your comment regarding her "gung-ho" position on firing employees for one. There is more than one way to balance a budget. Her blog pointed out Glendale has until 2017 to figure out how to pare itself down to something it can manage because the extra $22 million they get now from the sales tax increase won't be there. No where did I see her calling for mass-firings of employees. I did see her call for a gradual pare down in spending over the next 4 years, before the city faces "draconian cuts in 2017". So I ask is this being "gung-ho" for firing people? Is it irresponsible to point out the city needs to gradually work this in???

Note that the newly elected mayor was advocating pay raises for city employees just in the past week. Newly elected council member Chavira (Clark's successor) was calling for increased monies to the police and fire departments. Now who's being irresponsible??

In regards to her noting the city possibly raiding the $17million allotted for arena management to cover an outside audit..... didn't everyone just rip the city over using money from one department to cover expenses somewhere else???

How's Beacon supposed to sell an arena management deal for the city when it could possibly rob the fund that pays for it???

Or does taking it from arena management not seem as bad because of the potential to fulfill some other result you want????
just my opinion but I consider giving money to protection services more responsible than giving 15M a year to a hockey team when a considering a council members duties.

I for one, favour Clark's continued contributions. She provides real insight into the warped logic that was prevalent during her last term on council. No end to the amusement she creates.

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Old
03-26-2013, 06:37 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
There is a feeling on the council that an extension would have to be considered. Without the 457 tax, the city would be bankrupt. AND, it isn't because of the Coyotes since 67% of that .7% tax increase goes to police and fire. In 4-5 years, another proposal may be needed to extend the time of the 'temporary' tax. The bet being that the economy will turn around by then and little to no cuts will have to be made.

Westgate is doing what it can to survive and putting in its own money so it doesn't cost the CoG a dime. Leveraging on the Tanger outlets, etc.
Keep in mind a large portion of any municipalities revenues is property taxes, which tend to be a percentage of the value of the house and they are adjusted periodically. So whats happened to a lot of local governments is that housing values collapsed so the property tax collections plummeted and now they are coming back. So I can see why they think revenues should recover in 5 years.

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03-26-2013, 06:57 PM
  #359
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Then to paraphrase something you stated a few pages back.... their "15 minutes of fame" really aren't up yet.



She's being "engaged" by proxy..... so unless she's got an HFBoards account now (sorry Fugu ) the only way for her to be "engaged" in the discussion here is by people here giving credence to her blog.



Your comment regarding her "gung-ho" position on firing employees for one. There is more than one way to balance a budget. Her blog pointed out Glendale has until 2017 to figure out how to pare itself down to something it can manage because the extra $22 million they get now from the sales tax increase won't be there. No where did I see her calling for mass-firings of employees. I did see her call for a gradual pare down in spending over the next 4 years, before the city faces "draconian cuts in 2017". So I ask is this being "gung-ho" for firing people? Is it irresponsible to point out the city needs to gradually work this in???

Note that the newly elected mayor was advocating pay raises for city employees just in the past week. Newly elected council member Chavira (Clark's successor) was calling for increased monies to the police and fire departments. Now who's being irresponsible??

In regards to her noting the city possibly raiding the $17million allotted for arena management to cover an outside audit..... didn't everyone just rip the city over using money from one department to cover expenses somewhere else???

How's Beacon supposed to sell an arena management deal for the city when it could possibly rob the fund that pays for it???

Or does taking it from arena management not seem as bad because of the potential to fulfill some other result you want????
Well, if you think that being mentioned on an internet discussion board is "fame", then I suppose that IEH still has a few minutes left. Personally, I think that they are just fodder for the entertainment of folks on this Board, and not a serious player in the real show.

I was responded to a post by Killion who gave Clark credit for continuing to be "engaged" (through her blog and her band of acolytes, I suppose). Critiquing and deriding her blog is hardly "giving credence" to it.

Go back and check the records while she was still a city council member, and her public postings since. She has been consistently urging city council to make the "hard decisions" to cut the budget, which means firing employees, among other things (note that "mass firings" was your characterization, which I suppose was meant as a rhetorical flourish). The point is that the cuts to services and employees in Glendale will have to be substantially more with a large subsidy to a Coyotes owner, than without. Even Skeete was able to figure that out. Now, Clark is advocating for going ahead with the cuts while preserving the $17 million in funds for an AMF to some ghost investor. I think we all know that it won't take anywhere close to that to hire someone to actually manage the arena. The extra money is reserved as a subsidy for a Coyotes owner (and indirectly for the NHL).

Let me see... what is more irresponsible, advocating increases for police and fire or advocating for preserving a huge fund to be offered as a subsidy to an NHL team owner? I guess that depends on how much you like NHL hockey.

I think that we both know that Beacon (or whoever) don't need $17 million to develop an arena management plan, but I can understand why Coyotes' fans would see that as a preferred maneuver.

In any case, this discussion has hit the doldrums. There is no real news, so we have to find sidelights to amuse us. I find amusement in poking fun at IEH and in the occasional swipe at Clark, who I find to be quite an unappealing character. The days are long past for actually finding any useful information and analysis on this thread. I suppose you might agree with that.

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Old
03-26-2013, 07:27 PM
  #360
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Have you ever known of a government, be it municipal, state/provincial or federal who
after introducing a temporary tax increase then actually repeals it as they'd promised?.

Like, ever?...
yes. The sales tax for the Diamondbacks Park was repealed when the park was paid off early.

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Old
03-26-2013, 07:39 PM
  #361
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In any case, this discussion has hit the doldrums. There is no real news, so we have to find sidelights to amuse us. I find amusement in poking fun at IEH and in the occasional swipe at Clark, who I find to be quite an unappealing character. The days are long past for actually finding any useful information and analysis on this thread. I suppose you might agree with that.
No real news for sure. However GoC is scheduled to approve the 400/hr contract to Beacon tonight.

The Fellars of the world probably look at it as a pivitol step that will lead to guaranteeing the team will stay put forever after with one of the many groups lining up.

Weeks not months right ?

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03-26-2013, 07:42 PM
  #362
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... depending on ones perspective. Thats what makes this particular story & case so fascinating. Despite themselves, despite the total lack in pro-actively rolling up the sleeves & making something of it, of the building itself over the past 4yrs, facilitating a local sale through creative financing & active engagement, they've basically done Jack. Parked it. Curbed the franchise. Arrogantly extorting large sums of money themselves while aiding & abetting others in attempting same, absolutely gunning a municipality of less than 300,000 souls already on the hook to the tune of over a half a billion dollars in the middle of the desert. Never explaining much less providing much of an accounting for where the $25M even went, another $20M still sitting casually in escrow, as in ho-hum, we'll get around to withdrawing that when we feel like it... Just mindblowing. And yet here we are, and Bettman, he's got options galore, carte blanche, no way no how if even parked for like another 3yrs does he lose. As in hello Markham or Hamilton at $400M+++?. Incredible.
Yes, one-half-of-a-billion-dollars in sports debt, with very little commercial development to support/offset it with taxes...

Be seeing you, Stockton...

P.S. A tip of the hat to your The Prisoner avatar, Number Six.

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03-26-2013, 07:44 PM
  #363
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yes. The sales tax for the Diamondbacks Park was repealed when the park was paid off early.
Sure, there are indeed the odd examples, here & there, but generally speaking? No. Absolutely not. The GST was supposed to be "temporary". All kinds of examples. For every one thats been repealed, promises honoured & kept, probably 10 or more that never were. Others repealed as promised, new tax programs created to basically continue with it simply dressed up in a new suit of clothes. I dont see Glendale being in a position to be repealing this "temporary" increase in 2017. Prior to expiration of it, something else crafted to replace it if not simply extended with or without the Coyotes.

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03-26-2013, 08:13 PM
  #364
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I think the best example is the "Income War Tax Act, 1917", not yet repealed despite the end of a few wars and one change of name.

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03-26-2013, 08:19 PM
  #365
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Sure, there are indeed the odd examples, here & there, but generally speaking? No. Absolutely not. The GST was supposed to be "temporary". All kinds of examples. For every one thats been repealed, promises honoured & kept, probably 10 or more that never were. Others repealed as promised, new tax programs created to basically continue with it simply dressed up in a new suit of clothes. I dont see Glendale being in a position to be repealing this "temporary" increase in 2017. Prior to expiration of it, something else crafted to replace it if not simply extended with or without the Coyotes.
Killion

Aren't you running for mayor of the village?

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03-26-2013, 08:20 PM
  #366
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I think the second best example is Jean Chretien's 1993 "Red Book" promise to repeal the GST. He did. Replaced it with the HST in some provinces. As to the other provinces, he said to Peter Mansbridge to the effect of "What can I do if they don't want to negotiate?". I don't think replacing the GST with the HSt was what anyone had in mind anyway.

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03-26-2013, 08:43 PM
  #367
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Yes, one-half-of-a-billion-dollars...The Prisoner avatar, Number Six.
Ya. The Tao of Steve... Steve Ellman. Nice job on Westgate & the rink Maing. I mean, where did this Wingnut come from anyway? Malibu? Up around Big Sur like mebbe Carmel? Ashram in Oregon on the backside of Mount Hood? Unbelievable. Calls in Mighty Mover Jerry Moyes with his Swift fleet, hydraulically jacks up the the entire development, arena n' all, drive's it all lock stock & smokin barrel's straight into the ditch. Anyone else calls this a disaster. To Ellman, Moyes, the NHL, they call it Tuesday. Normal day at the office... And hopefully not... that Glendale has to pull a Stockton. I dont think its that bad but it most assuredly wouldve been had they paid the ransom being demanded by the NHL, Hulsizer & Jamison. Absolutely. Shouldnt have just thrown their allegiances & lot in with the NHL during the BK without asking for & receiving in writing assurances, a veritable shopping list of them in fact. Should have pulled Beasley & Tindall right off this file in October 2009, hired SportsCorp or some other heavyweight consultancy firm like that. Had them deal with the suitors & the NHL. Way out of the cities league. Needed serious professional help... and one more thing Llama, I am not a number!

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03-26-2013, 08:56 PM
  #368
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Killion, Aren't you running for mayor of the village?
... Derp... nice avy there Qc.

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I think the second best example is Jean Chretien's...
No, a proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? Its a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof....

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03-26-2013, 10:10 PM
  #369
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Sure, there are indeed the odd examples, here & there, but generally speaking? No. Absolutely not. The GST was supposed to be "temporary". All kinds of examples. For every one thats been repealed, promises honoured & kept, probably 10 or more that never were. Others repealed as promised, new tax programs created to basically continue with it simply dressed up in a new suit of clothes. I dont see Glendale being in a position to be repealing this "temporary" increase in 2017. Prior to expiration of it, something else crafted to replace it if not simply extended with or without the Coyotes.
Well you asked if we knew of any cases ever. So I named one.

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03-26-2013, 10:50 PM
  #370
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Sure, there are indeed the odd examples, here & there, but generally speaking? No. Absolutely not. The GST was supposed to be "temporary". All kinds of examples. For every one thats been repealed, promises honoured & kept, probably 10 or more that never were. Others repealed as promised, new tax programs created to basically continue with it simply dressed up in a new suit of clothes. I dont see Glendale being in a position to be repealing this "temporary" increase in 2017. Prior to expiration of it, something else crafted to replace it if not simply extended with or without the Coyotes.
Key votes tonight:

- Beacon Sports Ok'd to find management firm for Jobing.com Arena (with or without a new owner for Coyotes)
- Haralson Miller Pitt Feldman & McAnally to conduct a special audit of the city's books
- Dick Bowers Ok'd as 'acting' city manager, Skeete becomes assistant manager again

Source: https://twitter.com/PaulGiblinAriz


Last edited by Llama19: 03-26-2013 at 10:52 PM. Reason: S-k-e-e-t-e's name is astericked?
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03-26-2013, 11:07 PM
  #371
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Heres something interesting with respect to Seattle & Sacramento as it might relate to a Relocation of the Coyotes... as in maybe the Kings arent going anywhere at all.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/2...amento-council

Furthermore, the 3 member investment group in Sacramento who want to buy the Kings from the Maloofs & build a new $475M+ NBA facility (the city looking to raise funds to pay for a sizeable investment through... parking levys, Im assuming Bonds - sound familiar?) includes Pittsburgh's Ron Burkle of the Penguins, he & Mario Lemieux amongst Gary Bettmans closer allies. David Stern of the NBA as well, long time compadre of Garys, his former boss, one time colleagues at law firm Proskauer Rose, absolutely critical in determining Sacramento's future, relo, the whole shootin match.

Now, its been reported widely that Stern wants that team gone out of Sacramento, attendance is waning, need new building. In the small world of ownership & leagues, to suggest that Seattles a slam dunk by any stretch is exactly that, a stretch of Wilt Chamerlainian proportions and I would suggest a potentially foul call altogether. Id just forget about Seattle as being any kind of a potential possible destination for a summer move of the Coyotes altogether, whatsoever. Off grid until this thing gets sorted.

And you have to ask yourself; if Seattles the NHL's preferred destination for the team, and we know Seattles #1 priority is an NBA franchise with the NHL a toss in or afterthought, then how do you think Burkle & Mario Lemiuex would react in knowing that Gary Bettman colluded with Stern to force the movement of the Sacramento Kings to Seattle, a prize Ron wanted to purchase himself? They would expect Bettman to lobby his long time friend & colleague David Stern to work him over in insuring that Burkle's group got the Kings, gets the new arena built, Sacramento doesnt lose its franchise, everybody Happy-Slappy with the exception of Hansen & Seattle. Or alternatively & diabolically, maybe Burkles a plant, a subversive, a walking stick of dynamite set to blow the Sacramento dealeo to smithereens so Stern & Bettman can cash in up in Seattle hand in hand.

Doubt it, and if QC was in-play, beyond PKP's interesting move in stepping down as Chairman of Quebecor, not so much as a peep, and no way does that stay quiet for long in PQ if its got legs on it. In Quebec a pair of legs turns into a caterpillar very quickly, 3 sets of true legs, 5 or more sets of pro-legs & on & on. There are just so many moving parts to pulling a spring/summer relo off to QC (anywhere really) that something would just have to have leaked by now. More I think about this, the more Im convinced this teams staying right where it is.

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03-26-2013, 11:30 PM
  #372
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Well you asked if we knew of any cases ever. So I named one.
You did indeed, and thanks aqib. Thats what, 1 promise kept by a muni, 10 broken? But hey, who's keeping score?

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Key votes tonight:

- Beacon Sports Ok'd to find management firm for Jobing.com Arena (with or without a new owner for Coyotes)
- Haralson Miller Pitt Feldman & McAnally to conduct a special audit of the city's books
- Dick Bowers Ok'd as 'acting' city manager, Skeete becomes assistant manager again

Source: https://twitter.com/PaulGiblinAriz
Oh boy, a few Prisoner fans here I see, Qc & now you Llama. Excellent!...

Well those 3 matters are interesting. We knew Beacon was involved, retained, two RFP's, one with, one without the franchise, likely hitting the streets in April, prolly a 45 day window thereafter to submit proposal... taking us into June.... mind reels in speculation.... Any word as to what Beacons being paid?... Audit should prove illuminating. Sure hope Beasleys Passports up to date. You'd need one to get into but never out of any number of jurisdictions who dont have extradition treaties with the United States of America. And even then, CIA, Justice Department, just call up Batman & Skyhook the miscreant outta anywhere they want..... and so Horatios like "back"? Did he not resign? Effective immediately last week or the week before? How does that work? Like George Costanza? Fired from his job but shows up next day like it never happened? Who' writes this stuff for Glendale? Jerry Seinfeld?

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03-26-2013, 11:42 PM
  #373
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Oh boy, a few Prisoner fans here I see, Qc & now you Llama. Excellent!...

Well those 3 matters are interesting. We knew Beacon was involved, retained, two RFP's, one with, one without the franchise, likely hitting the streets in April, prolly a 45 day window thereafter to submit proposal... taking us into June.... mind reels in speculation.... Any word as to what Beacons being paid?... Audit should prove illuminating. Sure hope Beasleys Passports up to date. You'd need one to get into but never out of any number of jurisdictions who dont have extradition treaties with the United States of America. And even then, CIA, Justice Department, just call up Batman & Skyhook the miscreant outta anywhere they want..... and so Horatios like "back"? Did he not resign? Effective immediately last week or the week before? How does that work? Like George Costanza? Fired from his job but shows up next day like it never happened? Who' writes this stuff for Glendale? Jerry Seinfeld?
Cost of the Beacon contract estimated at $100,000

Audit cost estimated at $200,000

Beacon Contract Source:

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...n-400-per.html

Audit Source (City Agenda - Item 17):

http://www.glendaleaz.com/clerk/agen...nts/032613.pdf

As to who writes this stuff...I think Rod Serling


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03-27-2013, 12:53 AM
  #374
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
As to who writes this stuff...I think Rod Serling
The Audit Costs I cant speak to, but they sound reasonable considering the amount of work that surely must be involved in such an undertaking, and absolutely required. But as for Beacon@100K? They must be providing more than just base-line consultancy work in drafting RFP's. I'd hazard to guess that could just be a base Retainer with further billables likely if as I speculate the Coyotes are in fact staying put for at least another year. .. I dont know what to make of that particular choice of company, Beacon. Mixed reviews elsewhere, some problems, fur & lawsuits flying. Pre-existing relationships with Beasley, Kaites, Jerry Reinsdorf & Michaels company, IFP. Its curious but for now I think passes the smell test. Should be interesting to see how they handle it and how their relationship with Weiers, Council & the Media evolves.


Last edited by Killion: 03-27-2013 at 09:53 AM.
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03-27-2013, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
No, a proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? Its a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof....
suddenly realizing she was married to the most inarticulate man in the world, aline chrétien turned from the intruder and whacked the prime minister in the head with the inuit carving ... (history revisited)

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