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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-26-2013, 04:09 PM
  #551
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Isn't the normal argument in Messier vs. Yzerman that Messier would have produced MORE without Gretzky? How could Gilmour have beaten Messier if he scored an even higher amount than what beat Gilmour IRL?



Yzerman had excellent playoff runs before the Wings were stacked. Also, the Flames were pretty damn stacked. And for your reference, Yzerman outplayed Gilmour in the 1993 series until he was injured in the middle of it.

But this Yzerman/Gilmour stuff is way off topic. To get us back on topic I will provide Fedorov's info (30GP for 1994-95 instead of 50, otherwise Josef Beranek's the only eligible player):

Sergei Fedorov
PPG RankSelkeSeasonNotable achievements
30th21st19912nd Calder, All-Rookie
25th2nd1992Most 1st place Selke votes
29th4th1993 
3rd1st1994Won Hart/Pearson/Selke/1AS; 4th GPG
9th4th19955AS
7th1st19965th Hart, 6AS(C), 5AS(LW), 6AS(RW)
42nd9th1997 
44th19th200112th Hart
40th8th2002 
13th8th20039th Hart, 5AS
33rd19th2004 
153rd32nd2007 
126th66th2008 
If we discount 1998 because he only played 21 games (due to contract situations), he was only left out of voting four times in his entire career; 1999, 2000, 2006, and 2009. And he only played 52 games in 2009, so he was unlikely to receive votes that year. In fact, of the years he missed, 1999 is the only one where he played more than 68 games. And it was the first time he had scored fewer than 30 goals or 63 points (disregarding the 21-games in 97-98 and pro-rating the 94-95 season).

Furthermore, I think this shows that his 1994 season is pretty darn good. He was 4th in GPG, 3rd in PPG, and won the Selke/Hart/Pearson trio and was named to the first all-star team. That's why people call it one of the best seasons of All-Time; because he was one of the most dominant, if not the most dominant player in the league in all areas of the game, not just goal scoring, or general offense, or just defense. Everything.
His season was a product of playing on a great team with quality linemates(Cicarelli, Coffey, Kozlov, Lidstom) and getting boosted ice time when Yzerman goes down. On a weaker team thats a 100-110 point season at best. If anything his peak has become over-glorified.

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03-26-2013, 10:21 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
His season was a product of playing on a great team with quality linemates(Cicarelli, Coffey, Kozlov, Lidstom) and getting boosted ice time when Yzerman goes down. On a weaker team thats a 100-110 point season at best. If anything his peak has become over-glorified.
So you're saying he wouldn't have picked up 84 assists like Gilmour did, and would have instead had to have scored the goals on his own? Oh, wait, Fedorov (56) was third in the league in goal scoring behind Bure (60) and Hull (57).

And before you come in with some contrived "Gilmour got those assists because he was a better playmaker" talk, it's almost impossible to get high assist numbers without a high-end finisher. Gilmour had Andreychuk, who scored 53 goals. And Wendel Clark's 46. Fedorov had... Kozlov and his 34 goals? Ray Sheppard had 52, but wasn't a linemate of Fedorov. And even when it had been tried under Murray, it didn't work well because Sheppard decided that it's better to wear concrete blocks on your feet than skates.

The only way for a player to rack up large assist numbers (80+) without playing with a high-end finisher is by one player double-shifting and creating offense for the entire team.

I don't think someone winning the Hart, Pearson, and Selke, finishing second in scoring, being considered by those who watched him most to actually be better defensively than offensively, and being one of the league's most prolific goal-scorers... how does that become "over-glorified" as you put it? When the anointed one gets around to being a top goal scorer, top point scorer, and the league's best defensive forward ALL AT ONCE let me know. Nobody else has done what Fedorov did, and in the context of awards that means what he did is pretty hard to do. Therefore, his peak was pretty damn good.

Does the logic make sense?

Also... 100-110 points on a weak team without all of the players you mention puts him right with Gilmour in 1993-94. But as I mentioned, Gilmour had plenty of help offensively; he couldn't have picked up 84 assists if he were alone.

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03-26-2013, 10:34 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So you're saying he wouldn't have picked up 84 assists like Gilmour did, and would have instead had to have scored the goals on his own? Oh, wait, Fedorov (56) was third in the league in goal scoring behind Bure (60) and Hull (57).

And before you come in with some contrived "Gilmour got those assists because he was a better playmaker" talk, it's almost impossible to get high assist numbers without a high-end finisher. Gilmour had Andreychuk, who scored 53 goals. And Wendel Clark's 46. Fedorov had... Kozlov and his 34 goals? Ray Sheppard had 52, but wasn't a linemate of Fedorov. And even when it had been tried under Murray, it didn't work well because Sheppard decided that it's better to wear concrete blocks on your feet than skates.

The only way for a player to rack up large assist numbers (80+) without playing with a high-end finisher is by one player double-shifting and creating offense for the entire team.

I don't think someone winning the Hart, Pearson, and Selke, finishing second in scoring, being considered by those who watched him most to actually be better defensively than offensively, and being one of the league's most prolific goal-scorers... how does that become "over-glorified" as you put it? When the anointed one gets around to being a top goal scorer, top point scorer, and the league's best defensive forward ALL AT ONCE let me know. Nobody else has done what Fedorov did, and in the context of awards that means what he did is pretty hard to do. Therefore, his peak was pretty damn good.

Does the logic make sense?

Also... 100-110 points on a weak team without all of the players you mention puts him right with Gilmour in 1993-94. But as I mentioned, Gilmour had plenty of help offensively; he couldn't have picked up 84 assists if he were alone.
Look you cant sit here and whine about how detriot ruined fedorov's offensive numbers and act like he had the offense of jagr/crosby/lindros hidden in his body but bowman wouldnt let him unleash it. I'm of the opinion that his offense is nowhere near thiers and is massively overrated in general by red wing marks like you and had he played his career on a weaker team his legacy would take a massive nosedive. You wont change my opinion, no point in offering a rebuttal that will make more excuses. In 1994 Fedorov produced a GVT of 30, there are many players throughout history who have a higher peak than that. You are too clueless to understand that the defensive aspect of the game for a forward has nowhere near the value of that which comes from actual defenseman, thats why you overrate his potential. You want to make it seem like offensive and defensive contributions from forwards are given the same weight, when they clearly aren't. A forward will never have the defensive gvt of a bourque-lidstrom-pronger because they dont make the same overall impact in the defensive zone, you will never get it, so theres no point in discussing further.

By the way, where is Fedorov in your all time ranks. Which post 1980 players do you even have ranked above him?


Gilmour carried a mediocre maple leafs team on his back during those years, you want to sit here and read paper stats and make it seem like had so much help. Those were the best years of clarke and andreychuk's career. Gilmour boosted them and he would have easily won the hart if he was playing with luxury like fedorov always did. Tell me Eva, if 1994 were not the best years of the careers of Clarke and Andreychuk, than what years were. Gilmour gave those two thier most productive seasons.


Last edited by ushvinder: 03-26-2013 at 10:44 PM.
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03-26-2013, 11:00 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Look you cant sit here and whine about how detriot ruined fedorov's offensive numbers and act like he had the offense of jagr/crosby/lindros hidden in his body but bowman wouldnt let him unleash it. I'm of the opinion that his offense is nowhere near thiers and is massively overrated in general by red wing marks like you and had he played his career on a weaker team his legacy would take a massive nosedive. You wont change my opinion, no point in offering a rebuttal that will make more excuses.

Gilmour carried a mediocre maple leafs team on his back during those years, you want to sit here and read paper stats and make it seem like had so much help. Those were the best years of clarke and andreychuk's career. Gilmour boosted them and he would have easily won the hart if he was playing with luxury like fedorov always did. Tell me Eva, if 1994 were not the best years of the careers of Clarke and Andreychuk, than what years were. Gilmour gave those two thier most productive seasons.
Andreychuk scored 54 goals and 99 assists split half and half between Buffalo and Toronto in 1992-93. He scored 53 and 99 the next year with just Toronto.

Clark scored 46 goals in just 64 games. Sure, it can be attributed to playing with Gilmour. But moreso, it can be attributed to playing first-line time in a scoring environment. He scored 330 goals in about 800 games on his career; 46 in 64 is pace for 60+ in an 84-game season.

Now let's get this in check for a second. Gilmour had a 50-goal winger, Andreychuk, who finished fourth in goals. He had another winger who scored 46 and was on pace for 60. So that's 99 actual goals, 114 if you project each winger to 84 games. At no point in his CAREER did Fedorov have two wingers with that kind of scoring prowess.

In fact, the top two goal scorers on the Red Wings that year were Fedorov and Sheppard. both played 82 games, and totaled out to 108 goals. Projected to a full 84, it's 110.

If we add in Gilmour's 27 goals, and add the next highest wing (Kozlov's 34 actual, 37 projected) we get the following results:
Total:
Detroit: 142 (147)
Toronto: 126 (141)

There's a small difference in the favor of Detroit, this is true. But that's changed when you replace Sheppard with Ciccarelli, who was Fedorov's actual linemate:

Detroit: 118 (130)
Toronto: 126 (141)

Now let's look at just those wingers' totals again:

Detroit: 62 (73)
Toronto: 99 (114)

Tell me again where Kozlov and Ciccarelli are the reason Fedorov was above Gilmour in scoring? Because I sure as hell don't see that in this pile of numbers. Fedorov scored six fewer goals than his two most common wingers did COMBINED. Gilmour barely had more points than his wingers.

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03-26-2013, 11:07 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
By the way, where is Fedorov in your all time ranks. Which post 1980 players do you even have ranked above him?
Among players who played the majority of their career post-1980, he's between 15th and 20th.

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03-26-2013, 11:36 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Look you cant sit here and whine about how detriot ruined fedorov's offensive numbers and act like he had the offense of jagr/crosby/lindros hidden in his body but bowman wouldnt let him unleash it. I'm of the opinion that his offense is nowhere near thiers and is massively overrated in general by red wing marks like you and had he played his career on a weaker team his legacy would take a massive nosedive. You wont change my opinion, no point in offering a rebuttal that will make more excuses. In 1994 Fedorov produced a GVT of 30, there are many players throughout history who have a higher peak than that. You are too clueless to understand that the defensive aspect of the game for a forward has nowhere near the value of that which comes from actual defenseman, thats why you overrate his potential. You want to make it seem like offensive and defensive contributions from forwards are given the same weight, when they clearly aren't. A forward will never have the defensive gvt of a bourque-lidstrom-pronger because they dont make the same overall impact in the defensive zone, you will never get it, so theres no point in discussing further.

By the way, where is Fedorov in your all time ranks. Which post 1980 players do you even have ranked above him?
It has also been explained and demonstrated that Fedorov's offensive numbers were surpressed by myriad factors that contributed to supremely successful teams. Whether you choose to call that "ruining", or not, is entirely up to yourself.

But yeah, you may not want to discuss it any further, as you'll likely expose your lack of understanding even further in the process. Like you even said, how does it make sense to have a GVT weigh-off between forwards and defense? It doesn't. But what are the GVTs, I wonder, of all these players in the seasons we're discussing? The idea isn't to evaluate how good Fedorov would be defensively as a defenseman, or how Coffey would be defensively as a forward, it's to evaluate the choice between Fedorov and Modano, Gilmour, Yzerman, Forsberg, Sakic, or whoever else you've brought into this tangent at this point who at least played the same position.

Ultimately, there are players who develop reputations for being obstacles to the other teams' best scorers. Sometimes that manifests in Selke votes/wins, sometimes it manifests in record low team GA/game, or some other statistical category, sometimes it manifests itself in championships, and sometimes it just has to be witnessed. During the '90s, the offensive defenseman was a major component of successful offenses. I don't think even you would argue that. And guess what, defensemen don't cover defensemen on the ice. Regardless, defensemen have to be covered, and there were those who did a better job of shaking that coverage. All of Fedorov, Yzerman, Forsberg, (I'll give you Sakic if it makes you feel better), Gilmour, and Lehtinen made apparently made more of an impact defensively than Modano (or, to use my previous wording, maintained that coverage "better"), for example, unless you finally produce something substantial to support your seemingly minority opinion in claiming that Modano was their equal - or in some cases better - defensively when it comes to the defensive responsibilities of a forward. Oh, and that it's "blasphemous" to believe otherwise... lol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Gilmour carried a mediocre maple leafs team on his back during those years, you want to sit here and read paper stats and make it seem like had so much help. Those were the best years of clarke and andreychuk's career. Gilmour boosted them and he would have easily won the hart if he was playing with luxury like fedorov always did. Tell me Eva, if 1994 were not the best years of the careers of Clarke and Andreychuk, than what years were. Gilmour gave those two thier most productive seasons.
Haha, yeah, if only Gilmour wasn't stuck with a guy who started his NHL career at 19 with seasons of 34 and 37 goals on one side (who was limited by injury and missing a "legit" set-up man for a while), and a guy who had 402 goals in 846 games in Buffalo before coming to Toronto on the other side... imagine the possibilities. Fedorov should count his lucky stars.

Just try to support your opinion with more than just your opinion. I think that's all anyone is asking at this point.


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03-27-2013, 12:03 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Andreychuk scored 54 goals and 99 assists split half and half between Buffalo and Toronto in 1992-93. He scored 53 and 99 the next year with just Toronto.

Clark scored 46 goals in just 64 games. Sure, it can be attributed to playing with Gilmour. But moreso, it can be attributed to playing first-line time in a scoring environment. He scored 330 goals in about 800 games on his career; 46 in 64 is pace for 60+ in an 84-game season.

Now let's get this in check for a second. Gilmour had a 50-goal winger, Andreychuk, who finished fourth in goals. He had another winger who scored 46 and was on pace for 60. So that's 99 actual goals, 114 if you project each winger to 84 games. At no point in his CAREER did Fedorov have two wingers with that kind of scoring prowess.

In fact, the top two goal scorers on the Red Wings that year were Fedorov and Sheppard. both played 82 games, and totaled out to 108 goals. Projected to a full 84, it's 110.

If we add in Gilmour's 27 goals, and add the next highest wing (Kozlov's 34 actual, 37 projected) we get the following results:
Total:
Detroit: 142 (147)
Toronto: 126 (141)

There's a small difference in the favor of Detroit, this is true. But that's changed when you replace Sheppard with Ciccarelli, who was Fedorov's actual linemate:

Detroit: 118 (130)
Toronto: 126 (141)

Now let's look at just those wingers' totals again:

Detroit: 62 (73)
Toronto: 99 (114)

Tell me again where Kozlov and Ciccarelli are the reason Fedorov was above Gilmour in scoring? Because I sure as hell don't see that in this pile of numbers. Fedorov scored six fewer goals than his two most common wingers did COMBINED. Gilmour barely had more points than his wingers.
Scoring 99 points in 1994 is a big difference compared to 1993, the league onl avergaed .75 fewer goals per game. Before 1994, wendel clarke was never close to being top 30 in points per game, the only season he did it was with gilmour, are you seriously trying to pretend the 1993 and 1994 maple leafs were a powerhouse team, this thread should be labelled eva's revionism. Gilmour contributed to them having thier best seasons ever.

Where is Fedorov in your all time list, stop dodging the question? Which post 1980 players do you rank above him.

Ignore that Fedorov also had coffey, lidstrom, yzerman, primeau all score or assist on a large sum of Fedorov's points, i've seen the boxscores. Detriot in 1994 was the much better team. Gilmour puts up 120 on detriot.

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03-27-2013, 12:06 AM
  #558
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Scoring 99 points in 1994 is a big difference compared to 1993, the league onl avergaed .75 fewer goals per game. Before 1994, wendel clarke was never close to being top 30 in points per game, the only season he did it was with gilmour, are you seriously trying to pretend the 1993 and 1994 maple leafs were a powerhouse team, this thread should be labelled eva's revionism. Gilmour contributed to them having thier best seasons ever.

Where is Fedorov in your all time list, stop dodging the question? Which post 1980 players do you rank above him.

Ignore that Fedorov also had coffey, lidstrom, yzerman, primeau all score or assist on a large sum of Fedorov's points, i've seen the boxscores. Detriot in 1994 was the much better team. Gilmour puts up 120 on detriot.
Playing 15-20 minutes per night (well, it's probably more like 18/19 minutes) in that situation as opposed to the 25-30 (or more some nights?) minutes he was likely getting with Toronto those years as the "first and only resort"? Again, show your work, not just your opinion. For once.

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03-27-2013, 12:15 AM
  #559
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Playing 15-20 minutes per night (well, it's probably more like 18/19 minutes) in that situation as opposed to the 25-30 (or more some nights?) minutes he was likely getting with Toronto those years as the "first and only resort"? Again, show your work, not just your opinion. For once.
'Likely getting' doesnt show any work, nor does the fact that gilmour had no offensive defenseman in toronto, while fedorov had two on his team, i mean you just said offense is contributed greatly from the defenseman didnt you? Im pretty sure Fedorov was given plenty of ice time in the games yzerman missed, having yzerman score or assist on 20 out of yur 120 points doesnt hurt either, add kozlov-cicarelli-coffey-lidstrom, yeah that does a good job of explaining fedorov's 1 freak season.

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03-27-2013, 12:23 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Scoring 99 points in 1994 is a big difference compared to 1993, the league onl avergaed .75 fewer goals per game. Before 1994, wendel clarke was never close to being top 30 in points per game, the only season he did it was with gilmour, are you seriously trying to pretend the 1993 and 1994 maple leafs were a powerhouse team, this thread should be labelled eva's revionism. Gilmour contributed to them having thier best seasons ever.
You don't think it's an interesting coincidence that Gilmour has what are easily his two best seasons offensively, fueled largely by PP offense (his ES offense was not terribly different to what he had been putting up before), when he gets the league's best PP specialist added to his wing?

Quote:
Where is Fedorov in your all time list, stop dodging the question? Which post 1980 players do you rank above him.
As it stands right now, on March 27th, 2013?

Without further revision, it is these players who played all or part of their career post-1980 ranked above Fedorov:
Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Hasek, Jagr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Roy, Sakic, Fetisov, Potvin, Robinson, Bossy, Clarke, Trottier, Messier, Chelios, Park.

The first few post-1980 players behind Fedorov are:
Forsberg, Makarov, Lafleur, Kurri, Coffey, Dionne, Ovechkin, Crosby, Larionov

Quote:
Ignore that Fedorov also had coffey, lidstrom, yzerman, primeau all score or assist on a large sum of Fedorov's points, i've seen the boxscores. Detriot in 1994 was the much better team. Gilmour puts up 120 on detriot.
Define "large sum". Is this that all of these players, total, were involved in a large part of the offensive plays Fedorov received a point on? Or that each player was involved (read: also received a point) in a large amount of the scoring plays? I just find it amazing how Fedorov is really this terrible player who was carried to greatness by these other players who... weren't as good as him at the time?

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03-27-2013, 12:27 AM
  #561
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You don't think it's an interesting coincidence that Gilmour has what are easily his two best seasons offensively, fueled largely by PP offense (his ES offense was not terribly different to what he had been putting up before), when he gets the league's best PP specialist added to his wing?



As it stands right now, on March 27th, 2013?

Without further revision, it is these players who played all or part of their career post-1980 ranked above Fedorov:
Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Hasek, Jagr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Roy, Sakic, Fetisov, Potvin, Robinson, Bossy, Clarke, Trottier, Messier, Chelios, Park.

The first few post-1980 players behind Fedorov are:
Forsberg, Makarov, Lafleur, Kurri, Coffey, Dionne, Ovechkin, Crosby, Larionov



Define "large sum". Is this that all of these players, total, were involved in a large part of the offensive plays Fedorov received a point on? Or that each player was involved (read: also received a point) in a large amount of the scoring plays? I just find it amazing how Fedorov is really this terrible player who was carried to greatness by these other players who... weren't as good as him at the time?
He was also 5th in scoring in 1987, a season where only 1 of his teammates scored above 70 points, and 1993 where his linemates were borschevky and an old washed up glenn anderson, with no offensive defenseman. Put fedorov on the 1987 st. louis blues and he tanks, he cant carry teams on his back like dougie. Gilmour sure had great linemates in 1987.

You've got fedorov above lafluer, dionne, forsberg makarov and crosby/ovechkin, lol. Crosby is miles above fedorov, i could care less about how many mediocre season fedorov has, crosby is MUCH better than he ever was. In 3 years crosby will blow fedorov out of the water.

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03-27-2013, 12:38 AM
  #562
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I'm interested in a response to my latest post Eva.

And I believe you and I have battled it out before on Lafluer vs Fedorov.


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03-27-2013, 12:54 AM
  #563
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'Likely getting' doesnt show any work, nor does the fact that gilmour had no offensive defenseman in toronto, while fedorov had two on his team, i mean you just said offense is contributed greatly from the defenseman didnt you? Im pretty sure Fedorov was given plenty of ice time in the games yzerman missed, having yzerman score or assist on 20 out of yur 120 points doesnt hurt either, add kozlov-cicarelli-coffey-lidstrom, yeah that does a good job of explaining fedorov's 1 freak season.
The problem with the idea of Gilmour getting 120 in Detroit is that Sheppard played with Yzerman/Primeau. After that, there was nobody with 40+ except Fedorov. Gilmour is a 25-30 goal guy. Do you think he scores 56 like Fedorov did? No way. Gilmour would not have had the finishers to put up 120. Nor would he have played as much. I don't have the ice time numbers for that season, but generally a team in Toronto's situation will play their single star center more than a team in Detroit's situation. Carolina's situation is a good example; With just Erik Staal, he was averaging around 22 minutes per game the past couple of seasons. Then Jordan showed up, and his TOI dropped to about 20:30. Toronto didn't really have an established #2 center; they had three guys for their #2 and #3 spots in John Cullen, Mike Eastwood, and Peter Zezel who had a combined total of 148GP. Detroit lost Yzerman, but at the same time Primeau also finally established himself as a capable scorer. So a lot of Yzerman's lost minutes went right to Primeau by way of Primeau taking the #2 center slot behind Fedorov. Fedorov probably saw a small increase; nothing like the 60-90 second jump Staal has.

Take away some of Gilmour's time at ES and on the PP, and his numbers start to go down. Despite injury, Yzerman still posted a better PPG, and almost had an equal APG despite not having the same level of linemates. So Yzerman definitely had the better offensive season and would be viewed as the better option on, say, the PP. Add in net-front guy Ciccarelli and 50-goal scorer Sheppard, and where's Gilmour? On the second unit, with maybe Kozlov and Primeau. The first unit would have had Chiasson/Coffey or Lidstrom/Coffey, with the second unit having Mark Howe and the remainder of Chiasson/Lidstrom.

I don't see how Gilmour is in a better situation in Detroit than in Toronto for personally scoring points. The fact that two solid PP units existed would reduce his PPTOI regardless of whichever unit he was on.

To recap: worse wingers, less PP time, less overall time... I don't see where Gilmour adds ten points if he were swapped with Fedorov. More than likely he drops ten or twenty.

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03-27-2013, 01:36 AM
  #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You don't think it's an interesting coincidence that Gilmour has what are easily his two best seasons offensively, fueled largely by PP offense (his ES offense was not terribly different to what he had been putting up before), when he gets the league's best PP specialist added to his wing?



As it stands right now, on March 27th, 2013?

Without further revision, it is these players who played all or part of their career post-1980 ranked above Fedorov:
Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Hasek, Jagr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Roy, Sakic, Fetisov, Potvin, Robinson, Bossy, Clarke, Trottier, Messier, Chelios, Park.
No shame in being behind those guys but I think there can be a case for Fedorov over the 2 in bold and maybe Fetisov too but it's hard comparing different positions.

Quote:
The first few post-1980 players behind Fedorov are:
Forsberg, Makarov, Lafleur, Kurri, Coffey, Dionne, Ovechkin, Crosby, Larionov
Here it gets really tricky, Crosby and AO are still too young in their careers and I'm not a huge Coffey fan but all of the other guys have some really strong resumes.


I personally have Forsberg and Feds really close somewhere in the top 20 all time for Centers and both ahead of Clarke.

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03-27-2013, 01:44 AM
  #565
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I don't know about this. Kariya in his own right was a star but did he ever really have an elite season without Selanne?
Did Lindros ever have an elite season without Mikael Renberg? He was important enough that after trading him to Tampa Bay, they traded "future superstar" Chris Gratton to get him back. The same Chris Gratton they had just lured away from Tampa a summer earlier.

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Selanne showed he could still rack up points without Kariya in his career. Phil Housley had a career year playing with Selanne. I don't see what you're arguing there. The offense went through Selanne because he was one of the best offensive players in the league. Why wouldn't you put him in an offensive friendly situation if he's capable of leading the team?
The 1992-93 Jets were a 322-goal team. Their scoring leaders were:

Selanne, RW, 84GP, 76-56-132
Housley, D, 80GP, 18-79-97
Zhamnov, C 68GP, 25-47-72
Steen, C, 80GP, 22-50-72
Shannon, LW, 84GP, 20-40-60
Olausson, D, 68GP, 16-41-57
Tkachuk, LW, 83GP, 28-23-51
Davydov, RW, 79GP, 28-21-49


By comparison, the 1993-94 Red Wings were a 356-goal team.
Fedorov, C, 82GP, 56-64-120
Sheppard, RW, 82GP, 52-41-93
Yzerman, C/LW, 58GP, 24-58-82
Coffey, D, 80GP, 14-63-77
Kozlov, LW, 77GP, 34-39-73
Primeau, LW/C, 78GP, 31-42-73
Ciccarelli, RW, 66GP, 28-29-57
Lidstrom, D, 84GP, 10-46-56

Each of these sections represents the top two lines and top two scoring defensemen. There is a huge difference in the balance of scoring. I'll illustrate below:

Shannon/Steen/Selanne 118-146-264
Tkachuk/Zhamnov/Davydov 81-91-172
Housley/Olausson 34-120-154

Kozlov/Fedorov/Ciccarelli 118-132-250
Primeau/Yzerman/Sheppard 107-141-248
Lidstrom/Coffey 24-109-133

Now we'll set aside the fact that 1992-93 was a much higher scoring season. But let's run some numbers; what if Detroit's lines had the same goals and assists, but were balanced like Winnipeg's?

That comes out like this (I've arranged the players to try and fit closely):
Yzerman/Fedorov/Sheppard 133-168-301
Kozlov/Primeau/Ciccarelli 92-105-197

As you can see, that is a far more unbalanced lineup and a deep team like Detroit would be foolish to use it for any significant period of time.

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Zhamnov I won't argue as much but he still did have a career season with Selanne. It wasn't Zhamnov carrying Selannne.
No, but Zhamnov was legitimately considered the better player in his career year and the year before. It took Selanne a wild 1995-96 to establish his position as the best player on the Olympic Line, and he was traded during that season.

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Sellanne's fifth best offensive season vs Fedorov's second best. And Fedorov still didn't outscore him.
Steve Yzerman didn't outscore Joe Sakic or Jeremy Roenick in 1993-94, but it's universal truth that Yzerman was the better player that season.

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Guys like Shanahan, Yzerman, Lidstrom, even Larionov outscored Fedorov under the same Bowman system. Sadly 2003 is probably Fedorovs 4th best season.
Shanahan played a far less defensive role, and was typically paired up with either Yzerman or Larionov to give him a playmaker. Fedorov was given Kozlov and Brown, which is a good set of wingers in general, but it's **** for a top line if we're going to try and compare Fedorov's offensive performance to Selanne's. I've said this before. Here's an easy way of checking linemate ability:

Offensively:
Kariya>>Kozlov
Rucchin>Brown

Defensively:
Kariya<Kozlov
Rucchin=Brown

Hmm. I wonder who is more set up to succeed in a comparison of offensive numbers.

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03-27-2013, 01:51 AM
  #566
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I personally have Forsberg and Feds really close somewhere in the top 20 all time for Centers and both ahead of Clarke.
I think of Clarke in sort of a power center "group" with Trottier and Messier. I suppose Forsberg is another who might be that kind of center. I don't really see an argument for Messier over Clarke or Trottier. Therefore, if you rank Fedorov over Clarke, by extension you would also be saying Fedorov is above Messier (a highly unorthodox position). I have Fedorov right behind Messier on my centers list, so I don't think it's an unreasonable position to hold. But certainly unusual to see.

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03-27-2013, 02:04 AM
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He was also 5th in scoring in 1987, a season where only 1 of his teammates scored above 70 points, and 1993 where his linemates were borschevky and an old washed up glenn anderson, with no offensive defenseman. Put fedorov on the 1987 st. louis blues and he tanks, he cant carry teams on his back like dougie. Gilmour sure had great linemates in 1987.
Grant Fuhr was traded for Dave Andreychuk and Daren Puppa on February 2nd, 1993. Doug Gilmour had played 52 games to that point and scored 19-55-74. In the remaining 31 games he would play, he would score 13-40-53. That pace would have been 22-67-89 in 52 games; over the 83 he played total it would be 35-107-142.

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You've got fedorov above lafluer, dionne, forsberg makarov and crosby/ovechkin, lol. Crosby is miles above fedorov, i could care less about how many mediocre season fedorov has, crosby is MUCH better than he ever was. In 3 years crosby will blow fedorov out of the water.
Crosby has done nothing to put himself above Fedorov. Literally, nothing. That can and likely will change over the years. But as it stands now? No.

Your stance on Crosby is like Lindros showing up at like 36th in the THN top 100 players list that was made in 1998 or whatever. What if he suddenly goes Scott Gomez?

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03-27-2013, 03:14 AM
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Grant Fuhr was traded for Dave Andreychuk and Daren Puppa on February 2nd, 1993. Doug Gilmour had played 52 games to that point and scored 19-55-74. In the remaining 31 games he would play, he would score 13-40-53. That pace would have been 22-67-89 in 52 games; over the 83 he played total it would be 35-107-142.



Crosby has done nothing to put himself above Fedorov. Literally, nothing. That can and likely will change over the years. But as it stands now? No.

Your stance on Crosby is like Lindros showing up at like 36th in the THN top 100 players list that was made in 1998 or whatever. What if he suddenly goes Scott Gomez?
Crosby's scoring finishes: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 6th
Fedorov: 2nd, 9th

Im sorry but having jagr's career isn't a requirement to be ranked over him. Sergei is nothing compared to Crosby. If crosby played the full 2008 and 2011 seasons this would be a complete blowout.

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03-27-2013, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Crosby's scoring finishes: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 6th
Fedorov: 2nd, 9th

Im sorry but having jagr's career isn't a requirement to be ranked over him. Sergei is nothing compared to Crosby. If crosby played the full 2008 and 2011 seasons this would be a complete blowout.
If he had played a full-ish amount of games 2008, 2011, and 2012 at the pace he was scoring at, I'd probably have him above Fedorov. But he didn't. Having a high pace after ~65 games and saying "he'd probably have continued on such a pace" is not the same as doing it for ~40 or ~20.

As I said before. Crosby is not above Fedorov right now. If he continues on his current trajectory, he will likely pass him. But it's also possible he doesn't.

Finally, you put a "1st" in there as a scoring finish for Crosby leading the league right now during the season. Are you that certain he finishes first in scoring? So certain that an injury to Crosby wouldn't even allow Stamkos or anyone else to pass him?

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03-27-2013, 03:33 AM
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If he had played a full-ish amount of games 2008, 2011, and 2012 at the pace he was scoring at, I'd probably have him above Fedorov. But he didn't. Having a high pace after ~65 games and saying "he'd probably have continued on such a pace" is not the same as doing it for ~40 or ~20.

As I said before. Crosby is not above Fedorov right now. If he continues on his current trajectory, he will likely pass him. But it's also possible he doesn't.
By the end of this season crosby will win another hart, get over it dude. This is the problem with hockey, lebron is already being ranked over many nba greats, messi is being ranked as a top 5-10 all time soccer player, hockey fans have a hard time ranking crosby over sergei freakin fedorov for ****s sakes.. Nostalgia, nostalgia, nostalgia, best word to describe hockey fans.

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03-27-2013, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If he had played a full-ish amount of games 2008, 2011, and 2012 at the pace he was scoring at, I'd probably have him above Fedorov. But he didn't. Having a high pace after ~65 games and saying "he'd probably have continued on such a pace" is not the same as doing it for ~40 or ~20.

As I said before. Crosby is not above Fedorov right now. If he continues on his current trajectory, he will likely pass him. But it's also possible he doesn't.

Finally, you put a "1st" in there as a scoring finish for Crosby leading the league right now during the season. Are you that certain he finishes first in scoring? So certain that an injury to Crosby wouldn't even allow Stamkos or anyone else to pass him?
Your giving fedorov alot of mileage, outside of 1 season, when was he ever in the conversation for best player, oh yeah thats right he never was. Crosby's playoff ppg blows his, his hart trophy voting will become better after another 10 games. Im sure your praying sid gets hurt.

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03-27-2013, 03:53 AM
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Your giving fedorov alot of mileage, outside of 1 season, when was he ever in the conversation for best player, oh yeah thats right he never was. Crosby's playoff ppg blows his, his hart trophy voting will become better after another 10 games. Im sure your praying sid gets hurt.
Well, to be be fair Crosby hasn't yet shown he can be healthy over the long haul. He could very well wind up being another Eric Lindros: Someone who showed a lot of promise but simply couldn't stay healthy enough to build any career value.

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03-27-2013, 08:38 PM
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Your giving fedorov alot of mileage, outside of 1 season, when was he ever in the conversation for best player, oh yeah thats right he never was. Crosby's playoff ppg blows his, his hart trophy voting will become better after another 10 games. Im sure your praying sid gets hurt.
When the THN top 60 (since 1967) list came out, HF almost universally decided Fedorov was listed too low.

What's changed since then with his relation to the other players he was being compared to who were retired (or almost retired) at the time?

Furthermore, Fedorov received notable mention in All-Star voting throughout the 90s and even in the first couple seasons after he left Detroit. You know, when he was "sooooooo bad!" according to you?

And in media "top player" lists, he was mentioned highly as well.

You are revising history. I don't normally use this statement, but *add rocking chair, cane, wrinkles* you weren't around to see Fedorov play live and you're just going based off of his offensive stats. Sorry; it doesn't work like that.


Last edited by pdd: 03-27-2013 at 09:26 PM.
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03-27-2013, 09:07 PM
  #574
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Furthermore, Fedorov received notable mention in Hart and All-Star voting throughout the 90s and even in the first couple seasons after he left Detroit. You know, when he was "sooooooo bad!" according to you?
One second-place All-Star vote from 104 ballots now constitutes "notable mention." Probably one of the geniuses who voted for Martin St. Louis at center.

That's right: twice as many votes claimed that Martin St. Louis was the best center in hockey in 2003-04 than there were votes that Sergei Fedorov was a top-three center. And you called this "notable" in the same post in which you accused someone of "revising history."


At least make arguments in good faith.

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03-27-2013, 09:26 PM
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One second-place All-Star vote from 104 ballots now constitutes "notable mention." Probably one of the geniuses who voted for Martin St. Louis at center.

That's right: twice as many votes claimed that Martin St. Louis was the best center in hockey in 2003-04 than there were votes that Sergei Fedorov was a top-three center. And you called this "notable" in the same post in which you accused someone of "revising history."


At least make arguments in good faith.
Quite a few players who were primarily wingers received votes at center that season. Among players who were "primarily centers" Fedorov was ninth in voting. Is being a top-ten center not notable?

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