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** Official 2013 Fire Sacco Thread: Part 1 **

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Old
03-26-2013, 03:11 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Only logical reason to keep Sacco around is because they know the season can't be saved and so there's no point in firing the guy now (personally I think there is, but that's just me). I don't think it's necessarily an indictment of the players.

But yes...what a mess.
Well, we've had what... two or three years he obviously has been the problem? I'm having a hard time believing they think he's the problem even at this point.

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03-26-2013, 03:40 PM
  #977
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I'd argue that giving Jones that deal was the result of the team being left with the option of either walking away or dealing away other scoring wingers and so were left with either paying up or leaving the team with no scoring wingers outside of Parenteau.

In hindsight, the better move would've been to pay Fleischmann what we're paying Jones and dealing Jones for something last season before he hit UFA. But that's in hindsight. I thought it was the right move to not retain Flash. I was wrong.

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03-26-2013, 03:57 PM
  #978
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It's clear that Sacco is over his head on the professional level. Very little signs of creativity on offense or defense. Benching players instead of trying them where they were previously successful first. Having very little in-game adaptability. Seemingly zero influence on referees. Seemingly zero influence motivating his own players. Not playing to his players' strengths.

One could go on and on with examples, but there is really no doubt he does not have any business coaching this team going forward. If he is behind the bench as a head coach 2013-2014, the Avs will spend another year without a dime from me. My dime may be insignificant to them, but its still my dime to invest on worthy endeavors.

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03-26-2013, 04:01 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by AslanRH View Post
It's clear that Sacco is over his head on the professional level. Very little signs of creativity on offense or defense. Benching players instead of trying them where they were previously successful first. Having very little in-game adaptability. Seemingly zero influence on referees. Seemingly zero influence motivating his own players. Not playing to his players' strengths.

One could go on and on with examples, but there is really no doubt he does not have any business coaching this team going forward. If he is behind the bench as a head coach 2013-2014, the Avs will spend another year without a dime from me. My dime may be insignificant to them, but its still my dime to invest on worthy endeavors.
He just looks out of ideas at this point.

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03-26-2013, 04:01 PM
  #980
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Well, we've had what... two or three years he obviously has been the problem? I'm having a hard time believing they think he's the problem even at this point.
This is probably one of the last times I try and defend Sacco, but the team performed reasonably well enough under him last season for them to give him another chance. Unfortunately injuries and the O'Reilly debacle distracted management long enough to the point where if they thought they had a shot at saving the season by firing Sacco, they missed the opportunity.

In any event, I think the team's tanking it on purpose now. I think, as TPS posted, they feel they need an elite defenseman or an elite scoring winger. Neither is available through any other means.

I hope this is the last time this team tolerates losing.

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03-26-2013, 04:32 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
This is probably one of the last times I try and defend Sacco, but the team performed reasonably well enough under him last season for them to give him another chance. Unfortunately injuries and the O'Reilly debacle distracted management long enough to the point where if they thought they had a shot at saving the season by firing Sacco, they missed the opportunity.

In any event, I think the team's tanking it on purpose now. I think, as TPS posted, they feel they need an elite defenseman or an elite scoring winger. Neither is available through any other means.

I hope this is the last time this team tolerates losing.
Amen. I know some folks here don't give a lot of credence to the notion that it's difficult to shake off a losing culture and while I don't want to argue that per se, I would like to just mention in my opinion developing a winning culture can be a difficult task in and of itself. It's not a light switch that can be turned on and off. Players like Roy and Forsberg were either more scared of or had a stronger hatred of losing than they actually enjoyed winning. That's a culture issue that I think is sadly lacking throughout the entire organization right now. Which is why we can see desperation in the team at times when the game is close but they are down a goal or two with 10 minutes left. We rarely see that kind of desperation at the start of a game.

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03-26-2013, 04:41 PM
  #982
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03-26-2013, 05:00 PM
  #983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
This is probably one of the last times I try and defend Sacco, but the team performed reasonably well enough under him last season for them to give him another chance. Unfortunately injuries and the O'Reilly debacle distracted management long enough to the point where if they thought they had a shot at saving the season by firing Sacco, they missed the opportunity.

In any event, I think the team's tanking it on purpose now. I think, as TPS posted, they feel they need an elite defenseman or an elite scoring winger. Neither is available through any other means.

I hope this is the last time this team tolerates losing.
You do remember all the insane losing streaks, and how he handled Duchene last year right? Hes also been doing the whole 'play Hunwick' top minutes when hes in the lineup thing for a while now.

Duchene should have been tried at wing long before he was, then when he finally tried it. He kept him there long after it had proven not to work.

Sacco's roster decisions have always been a point of contention. It's nothing new... We have a better roster this year than we did last year, and it was quite obvious that the run we went on in the second half came largely due to Downie and McGinn being brought in, as we were struggling seriously before that.

The season before last was much like this one, we stayed close to .500 and then collapsed in the last quarter of the season.

Sacco's handling of the roster, and his favor towards grinders, is my biggest beef with him. I've also seen other people have serious problems with how he lacks the ability to adjust his game-plan in games as well.

I'm not versed enough in systems and hockey strategy to make that judgement but there are plenty of people who are and can see even more consistent problems with the way he does things as a whole.

The other major problem with him I have is his lack of emotion after losses, he deflects accountability constantly and is maddeningly vanilla and inconsistent. His personality has some really odd similarities to how we see this team play on a regular basis.

Sacco is our #1 problem and there isn't anything left to defend him on IMO. I'd be really scared to trade any significant player (Stastny/O'Reilly) at this point without seeing a new coach behind the bench.

The roster needs help but we should not be a bottom 3 team.

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Old
03-26-2013, 05:45 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
You do remember all the insane losing streaks, and how he handled Duchene last year right? Hes also been doing the whole 'play Hunwick' top minutes when hes in the lineup thing for a while now.
And you do remember that Duchene had no good linemates to speak of, battled injuries the entire season, and was so thoroughly dissatisfied with his performance he worked out this offseason with Sidney Crosby? I don't see how Sacco really "mishandled" him. I don't think putting him on the wing and occasionally scratching the kid necessarily counts. He was playing poorly for a number of reasons, but I don't think Sacco was one of them.

Yes, his man-crush on Hunwick is exasperating, but I suppose in Sacco's defense, Hunwick was a healthy scratch for most of last season, then played reasonably well in relief. I just wish management would get rid of the guy already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Duchene should have been tried at wing long before he was, then when he finally tried it. He kept him there long after it had proven not to work.
So you're saying Sacco simply missed the timetable upon which moving Duchene to wing would work, even though his performance issues had nothing whatsoever to do with what position he was playing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Sacco's roster decisions have always been a point of contention. It's nothing new... We have a better roster this year than we did last year, and it was quite obvious that the run we went on in the second half came largely due to Downie and McGinn being brought in, as we were struggling seriously before that.
That's arguable. Ryan O'Byrne this year is not at all the same guy as Ryan O'Byrne last year. And Zanon, well...I'd say he alone automatically makes this year's roster worse than last year's. You also have to factor in that this year we played a good chunk of the season with no Downie and no O'Reilly. Those are two key assets from last season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
The season before last was much like this one, we stayed close to .500 and then collapsed in the last quarter of the season.

Sacco's handling of the roster, and his favor towards grinders, is my biggest beef with him. I've also seen other people have serious problems with how he lacks the ability to adjust his game-plan in games as well.
On this we are in full agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I'm not versed enough in systems and hockey strategy to make that judgement but there are plenty of people who are and can see even more consistent problems with the way he does things as a whole.

The other major problem with him I have is his lack of emotion after losses, he deflects accountability constantly and is maddeningly vanilla and inconsistent. His personality has some really odd similarities to how we see this team play on a regular basis.

Sacco is our #1 problem and there isn't anything left to defend him on IMO. I'd be really scared to trade any significant player (Stastny/O'Reilly) at this point without seeing a new coach behind the bench.

The roster needs help but we should not be a bottom 3 team.
True...I'm not really standing here saying the Avs absolutely made the right decision retaining Sacco (obviously they did not), but I can see why they wanted to see what he might do with an improved roster. Unfortunately they failed to deliver on that improved roster.

Remember they kinda did make a coaching change--they replaced both of Sacco's assistants. I guess they were hoping a new dynamic would change things, but then the lockout happened so these guys had little time to work together, rushed through camp, and then were told that they wouldn't have the best player from last season on the roster. Then the injuries started piling up and...there you have it.

Management probably didn't feel they could pull the trigger right then and there, and remember the team did start playing better once Sacco had no choice but to use Barrie in a major role.

Thing is...when do you fire Sacco? I'm just not sure the timing was ever right. Early on, the roster wasn't even complete. Then, injuries struck. Then, the team starting playing better. Then, the bottom fell out, by which time it was too late.

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03-26-2013, 10:34 PM
  #985
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Signing Jones to a four year $4 million dollar per year deal was not a good decision regardless of the interest in him at last year's deadline. Jones has been given every opportunity to succeed this year and he's failed. He is suppose to be a goal scorer and he isn't scoring goals. It's that simple. His contract and his production will make him difficult to trade. Was that part of Lacroix's mastermind decision or was that Sherman's decision? Either way it doesn't give me confidence that the Avs are close to being a top flight contender soon.

The Avs defense is nowhere close to a championship caliber defense now or in the next couple of years unless over half the D-corps gets overhauled. Other than blocking shots Zanon has been brutally bad this year. Hunwick constantly turns the puck over, constantly gets beaten physically, and has been brutally bad. O'Byrne has been brutally bad in all facets this year and thankfully his contract is up at the end of the season. Wilson is very injury prone and has been his entire career. Elliott has shown nothing at the NHL level to give the team hope that he is the next Shattenkirk in the near future. Barrie has shown some promise but hoping he's the next Ray Bourque, Rob Blake or Adam Foote is wishful thinking. Other than Johnson, and that's debatable, who are the defensive cornerstones of a cup winning team? The team isn't one or two pieces away from having a cup winning blueline. They are a massive overhaul away from having what they need.

The team has some forwards with bright futures and some that can play at the highest level right now. They have a goaltender that's a little inconsistent but has a bright future and I believe is good enough to contend now. Unfortunately they have an extremely poor defensive unit and they've got some top forwards that have work ethic problems.

After a three or four year rebuild the team is currently last in the western conference and 2nd worst in the entire league. They aren't close to being a cup contender and replacing the coach or adding a #1 draft pick or one big free agent isn't going to get them there. They have a long way to go. Is this Lacroix's plan? Is this a seven or eight year rebuild in the works and we just don't know it?
Whatever dude. If you want to rip on the team and say everyone sucks, go for it, I can't help you. Do you know how many teams would be ****ing DROOLING at the thought of having:

Duchene
O'Reilly
Landeskog
Varlamov
E.Johnson
(Our upcoming 1st rounder)

Plus prospects like:
Barrie, Siemens, Hishon, Sgarbossa & Elliott??

You want to cry about Jones being overpaid? Look at the Leafs...they have Connolly & Komisarek in the AHL and still have Liles who they'd gladly dump and Grabovski at $5.5M which no one seems happy with. PLUS they're still looking for a #1 center and their rebuild started before ours.

Most teams have 1 or 2 guys that aren't producing for what they are being paid. Maybe Jones bounces back under a different coach next year or maybe he'll get traded and we'll actually get something for him (which will STILL have been better than if we just let him go for nothing last summer).

Quote:
Originally Posted by expatriated_texan View Post
Amen. I know some folks here don't give a lot of credence to the notion that it's difficult to shake off a losing culture and while I don't want to argue that per se, I would like to just mention in my opinion developing a winning culture can be a difficult task in and of itself. It's not a light switch that can be turned on and off. Players like Roy and Forsberg were either more scared of or had a stronger hatred of losing than they actually enjoyed winning. That's a culture issue that I think is sadly lacking throughout the entire organization right now. Which is why we can see desperation in the team at times when the game is close but they are down a goal or two with 10 minutes left. We rarely see that kind of desperation at the start of a game.
For every post about 'losing culture' there is a team like the Chicago Blackhawks or Pittsburgh Penguins that proves it's a fallacy or else it would have affected them as well, no? Every time this 'losing culture' thing comes up, I always ask for examples of clubs where this became an issue and every single time, it has more to do with management making bad decisions on players than it does anything else. Whether it's a franchise killer like Milbury who traded away Luongo & Jokinen for Kvasha & Parrish or those fools in Columbus who drafted Filatov 6th overall after everything that they went through with Zherdev at 4th overall or even Mike Keenan in Florida who ends up dealing Luongo for 7 games of Todd Bertuzzi plus a bunch of crap. It has more to do with mis-management than anything else.

While I don't disagree with the sentiment that it's not easy or something that happens overnight that you just become a 'winner', because I think there is something to it, what are people going to say next year when our NEW coach guides this team to a playoff berth? My guess is that it will be that 'these young players have finally just come into their own' or something like that.

Don't get me wrong, no one is saying we hire a new coach and then we are world beaters but in my opinion, we get a GOOD coach and we're a playoff team, next season.

While it probably will take some time for this club to 'take their lumps' and learn how to win in the playoffs, I don't doubt for one second that in 3 years, we'll be contenders.

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03-27-2013, 01:00 AM
  #986
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Honestly, either Sacco is the biggest moron in the National Hockey League or management told him he couldn't use Barrie.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67#

Ignoring extremely small sample sizes (Van der Gulik and Malone) pretty much everyone ranks in Corsi where you'd expect them to be. No surprise who's at the very top in nearly every possession category, and who's at the bottom.

Even advanced stats shouldn't be treated as sacred, but I think Corsi is a decent bellwether of who's playing a good possession game for your club, and who's been an absolute disaster.

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03-27-2013, 01:13 AM
  #987
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I think the fact Quinn is off the market, and that they would have to have balls the size of jupiter to keep Sacco or promote Army to HC, means there's a good chance they go outside the organization for the next guy. That's a great thing.

I think Roy is probably still the leading candidate, despite things falling apart monetarily last time, and I guess he's technically in that in-house/ties to the Avs category, but apart from him, you'd have to think guys like Ruff, Laviolette, Boucher, Eakins, would be considered.

Please don't eff this up again PL. As die hard Av fans we've had to put up with a lot, especially in the coaching department. Make sure this one is experienced witha track record of success, and can bring this group to the next level. Don't just hope to hit lightning in a bottle again.

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03-27-2013, 11:29 AM
  #988
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That is not a funny joke. If it was the other way around, sure. Bad news, then relief... Not give someone good news and "take it back".

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03-27-2013, 11:33 AM
  #989
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Given the nature of this Thread and the emotions going on in it, if anyone else posts a "cool joke" messages w/ White Text in relation to Sacco being fired, it will result in a Thread Ban and an Infraction.

Only warning being issued and don't test me on this.


Normally it's funny, when it's on a Topic that doesn't have as much heated discussion going on as this one does here in this Thread.

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03-27-2013, 11:45 AM
  #990
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Nice quick mod intervention.

Anyway someone said here before that now that Quinn is gone, I also have some hope that we might look outside the organization, as they can't be so stupid that they'd try Quinn as HC.
Hopefully we will go after someone who has at least some experience in the NHL or then someone with an amazing record in the juniors/lower leagues.

I don't want any no-names with below .500 record beforehand.

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03-27-2013, 11:52 AM
  #991
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I have a feeling the Avs will go cheap with a Head Coach. I think that is the only reason Sacco is still employed, the Avs don't want to pay him if he's not working, and don't want to pay a second person to be head coach.

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03-27-2013, 11:59 AM
  #992
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Whatever dude. If you want to rip on the team and say everyone sucks, go for it, I can't help you. Do you know how many teams would be ****ing DROOLING at the thought of having:

Duchene
O'Reilly
Landeskog
Varlamov
E.Johnson
(Our upcoming 1st rounder)

Plus prospects like:
Barrie, Siemens, Hishon, Sgarbossa & Elliott??

You want to cry about Jones being overpaid? Look at the Leafs...they have Connolly & Komisarek in the AHL and still have Liles who they'd gladly dump and Grabovski at $5.5M which no one seems happy with. PLUS they're still looking for a #1 center and their rebuild started before ours.

Most teams have 1 or 2 guys that aren't producing for what they are being paid. Maybe Jones bounces back under a different coach next year or maybe he'll get traded and we'll actually get something for him (which will STILL have been better than if we just let him go for nothing last summer).



For every post about 'losing culture' there is a team like the Chicago Blackhawks or Pittsburgh Penguins that proves it's a fallacy or else it would have affected them as well, no? Every time this 'losing culture' thing comes up, I always ask for examples of clubs where this became an issue and every single time, it has more to do with management making bad decisions on players than it does anything else. Whether it's a franchise killer like Milbury who traded away Luongo & Jokinen for Kvasha & Parrish or those fools in Columbus who drafted Filatov 6th overall after everything that they went through with Zherdev at 4th overall or even Mike Keenan in Florida who ends up dealing Luongo for 7 games of Todd Bertuzzi plus a bunch of crap. It has more to do with mis-management than anything else.

While I don't disagree with the sentiment that it's not easy or something that happens overnight that you just become a 'winner', because I think there is something to it, what are people going to say next year when our NEW coach guides this team to a playoff berth? My guess is that it will be that 'these young players have finally just come into their own' or something like that.

Don't get me wrong, no one is saying we hire a new coach and then we are world beaters but in my opinion, we get a GOOD coach and we're a playoff team, next season.

While it probably will take some time for this club to 'take their lumps' and learn how to win in the playoffs, I don't doubt for one second that in 3 years, we'll be contenders.
Whatever dude"? Is that how you handle your own frustration when you can't argue a valid point? Yeah, whatever dude.

Did I say everyone sucks? No, I didn't. I said the Avs have some young forwards that can play at the top level now. I also said they had a young goalie that is ready to play at the top level now as well. I also mentioned EJ. That covers your list of players to drool over.

Just because the Leafs made a bunch of mistakes doesn't justify the Avs making them too. The argument that someone else is worse off doesn't make it right. I never said Jones should have been let go for nothing. However, he shouldn't have been signed to a four year deal at $4 per year either. The smart GM would have signed him before he became a free agent to a more reasonable deal or he would have gotten asset(s) for him if he wasn't in the long term plans before he became a free agent.

My premise that putting a GOOD coach behind the bench or adding a top draft pick or a top free agent is not going to make the Avs a cup contender stands. You've said nothing to prove that wrong. The Avs defense is the problem. They don't have a defensive core that is good enough to get deep into the playoffs let alone win a cup. If the Avs are serious about winning a cup they need to overhaul their defense; plain and simple.


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03-27-2013, 12:01 PM
  #993
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Alright fine, sorry it wasn't funny. I'll contribute substantively now...

There seems to be a foregone conclusion that Sacco won't be back next year. I'm not convinced this is the case. For one, he's got all the excuses in the world. Second, look at one the biggest complaints about him from last year -- his handling of Duchene. That actually looks pretty good now. I wouldn't be surprised to see him stick around for one more year of individual development.

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03-27-2013, 12:03 PM
  #994
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Alright fine, sorry it wasn't funny. I'll contribute substantively now...

There seems to be a foregone conclusion that Sacco won't be back next year. I'm not convinced this is the case. For one, he's got all the excuses in the world. Second, look at one the biggest complaints about him from last year -- his handling of Duchene. That actually looks pretty good now. I wouldn't be surprised to see him stick around for one more year of individual development.
It's no problem man, no need to be sorry, I just didn't want a verbal assault going down because of it. Sacco is hot-button issue here because of his gross incompetence. I know that I was in the process of frantically refreshing Twitter to see if the news was legit before I saw the White Text...you got me good!

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03-27-2013, 01:57 PM
  #995
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Whatever dude"? Is that how you handle your own frustration when you can't argue a valid point? Yeah, whatever dude.

Did I say everyone sucks? No, I didn't. I said the Avs have some young forwards that can play at the top level now. I also said they had a young goalie that is ready to play at the top level now as well. I also mentioned EJ. That covers your list of players to drool over.

Just because the Leafs made a bunch of mistakes doesn't justify the Avs making them too. The argument that someone else is worse off doesn't make it right. I never said Jones should have been let go for nothing. However, he shouldn't have been signed to a four year deal at $4 per year either. The smart GM would have signed him before he became a free agent to a more reasonable deal or he would have gotten asset(s) for him if he wasn't in the long term plans before he became a free agent.

My premise that putting a GOOD coach behind the bench or adding a top draft pick or a top free agent is not going to make the Avs a cup contender stands. You've said nothing to prove that wrong. The Avs defense is the problem. They don't have a defensive core that is good enough to get deep into the playoffs let alone win a cup. If the Avs are serious about winning a cup they need to overhaul their defense; plain and simple.
Can't argue a valid point? How do you mean? I gave you my argument.

It's like when you tell people that EJ's stats are suffering from the fact that he's playing 45 seconds on the 2nd PP unit featuring THREE wingers.

Then they respond with "he's getting PP time, he should produce".
What do you want to do? People don't get it, they don't get it.

It's not JUST the leafs, go through each team, one-by-one and see how each team compares with our core.

Also, as for your last bolded statement, I've actually never even said that with a GOOD coach and a top pick it would make us instant cup contenders, you might want to go re-read that. I said that with a GOOD coach we were definite PLAYOFF contenders, we will need to take our 'lumps' in the playoffs for 2-3 years before we are ready to contend. <- I truly believe that and have written it over and and over

About Jones, I said at the time, that if they are to sign him, the MAX I would give him is $3.5M or else I'd let him walk. I was extremely surprised to see him get $4M for 4 years when it happened.

Who knows, maybe Lacroix uses the compliance buyout on him and then uses that as an excuse to fire Sherman as well.

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03-27-2013, 02:28 PM
  #996
hoserthehorrible
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Can't argue a valid point? How do you mean? I gave you my argument.

It's like when you tell people that EJ's stats are suffering from the fact that he's playing 45 seconds on the 2nd PP unit featuring THREE wingers.

Then they respond with "he's getting PP time, he should produce".
What do you want to do? People don't get it, they don't get it.

It's not JUST the leafs, go through each team, one-by-one and see how each team compares with our core.

Also, as for your last bolded statement, I've actually never even said that with a GOOD coach and a top pick it would make us instant cup contenders, you might want to go re-read that. I said that with a GOOD coach we were definite PLAYOFF contenders, we will need to take our 'lumps' in the playoffs for 2-3 years before we are ready to contend. <- I truly believe that and have written it over and and over

About Jones, I said at the time, that if they are to sign him, the MAX I would give him is $3.5M or else I'd let him walk. I was extremely surprised to see him get $4M for 4 years when it happened.

Who knows, maybe Lacroix uses the compliance buyout on him and then uses that as an excuse to fire Sherman as well.
So, using your own words... with a new coach the team is immediately a definite playoff contender and in two or three years they'll be a cup contender.

No major changes in personnel are needed? The Avs have what they need they just need to add a good coach and wait for the talent to reach their potential? No need to overhaul the defense? Just wait for the prospects like Barrie, Elliott and Siemens to mature and the team will be a cup contender? As was said earlier... if people don't get it, they don't get it.

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03-27-2013, 02:28 PM
  #997
Ivan13
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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Alright fine, sorry it wasn't funny. I'll contribute substantively now...

There seems to be a foregone conclusion that Sacco won't be back next year. I'm not convinced this is the case. For one, he's got all the excuses in the world. Second, look at one the biggest complaints about him from last year -- his handling of Duchene. That actually looks pretty good now. I wouldn't be surprised to see him stick around for one more year of individual development.
Sadly I share your concerns.

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03-27-2013, 04:08 PM
  #998
The Kingslayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Alright fine, sorry it wasn't funny. I'll contribute substantively now...

There seems to be a foregone conclusion that Sacco won't be back next year. I'm not convinced this is the case. For one, he's got all the excuses in the world. Second, look at one the biggest complaints about him from last year -- his handling of Duchene. That actually looks pretty good now. I wouldn't be surprised to see him stick around for one more year of individual development.
I thought Duchenes issues last yr had more to do with his injuries then Sacco himself. Duchene and his damn spin moves and not using his speed. I wont blame that on Sacco just like how im not gonna give Sacco credit for Duchenes bounce back yr thus far

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03-27-2013, 04:14 PM
  #999
Bubba Thudd
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