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*OFFICIAL* Windsor Spitfires 2012-13 Season Thread (Part 8)

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03-25-2013, 07:55 PM
  #851
RayzorIsDull
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Im fine with this upcoming draft being full of flyer picks. They don't have a 1st or 2nd rounder as of now. Only what was mentioned above and there's a good chance that whoever they draft this year would never make the team to begin with why not take chances. The Spits haven't drafted well recently why not take flyer picks? Spits were shorthanded this year dressing below the minimum but if they can't sign a guy like Ryan Watson, the only signed Verbeek, Sanvido, Brown and Ho-Sang from this draft which is a lot but they still didn't have enough reinforcements. The only way this upcoming draft is a success if they get high end guys and at this point flyers is the only route.

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03-25-2013, 10:58 PM
  #852
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Rayzor, as long as you don't complain that a draft is bad because few reported when we had a chance at kids who would report.

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03-26-2013, 12:02 AM
  #853
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Rayzor, as long as you don't complain that a draft is bad because few reported when we had a chance at kids who would report.
This draft is already screwed but I don't like your line of reasoning. We know why the draft is screwed and that should be up for discussion. So take less talented players who would report?

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03-26-2013, 12:46 AM
  #854
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Those picks in rounds 3-6 are going to need to be developed into solid OHLers, not necessarily for a cup run but to provide a reasonable nucleus from that draft year to contribute the year after the memorial cup year. Picks in rounds 9 and on are all that should be available to risk on so called flyer picks. If we still had picks in rounds one and two then perhaps the picks in 5 or 6 could have been risked.

Rayzor if you are calling for alot of risks to be taken and then those risks are taken you should not complain that they followed your advice. However, it would be reasonable for you to complain if they do not take risks after you called for them to do so.

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03-26-2013, 07:34 AM
  #855
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This draft is already screwed but I don't like your line of reasoning. We know why the draft is screwed and that should be up for discussion. So take less talented players who would report?
How do you know they're less talented? Eric Locke was a 13th round pick (or was it 12th? I forget) and just scored 40 in the league. Posa was a 15th rounder (3rd from last??) and was one of the most reliable in the game. Then, look at how thin our depth was when we were down from injury or suspension. We were literally trying to figure out who was eligible to be called up. Didn't even have choices. Taking some kids who want to report, as opposed to NCAA-or-bust, is the way you gotta go in a draft like this. We don't have the luxury of having 7-8 kids report, so take a "why not?" option on 3-4 other kids who are NCAA-or-bust. With a handful of picks, total, get the kids who want to be here and worry about NCAA or otherwise down the road (unless they're 100% "I'll come to Windsor.").

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03-26-2013, 10:35 AM
  #856
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How do you know they're less talented? Eric Locke was a 13th round pick (or was it 12th? I forget) and just scored 40 in the league. Posa was a 15th rounder (3rd from last??) and was one of the most reliable in the game. Then, look at how thin our depth was when we were down from injury or suspension. We were literally trying to figure out who was eligible to be called up. Didn't even have choices. Taking some kids who want to report, as opposed to NCAA-or-bust, is the way you gotta go in a draft like this. We don't have the luxury of having 7-8 kids report, so take a "why not?" option on 3-4 other kids who are NCAA-or-bust. With a handful of picks, total, get the kids who want to be here and worry about NCAA or otherwise down the road (unless they're 100% "I'll come to Windsor.").
How do we know they are less talented? Using Chief's cutoff of 6th rounders from the drafts of 06-10. 6th rounders or later that made the Spits 14 of 38 which is 36% but you need to look deeper and who those players are.

Ryan
Campbell
Patrick Murphy
Saverio Posa
Josh Malecki
Eric Locke
Michael Whaley
Michael Nishi
Bowen
Cortellessa
Feasey
Bilcke
Seguin
Turcotte

Now you have to eliminate certain players from this group who either never played much for Windsor or made an impact. Eliminate Turcotte, Seguin, Nishi, Feasey, Cortellessa, Malecki, Murphy. You may try and make some case about Cortellessa because the Spits got Marchese in a deal but Cortellessa is out of the OHL now. I don't think the Spits got much value back when they moved Feasey either.

So now we are down to 7 out of 38. Ryan, Campbell, Posa, Bowen, Whaley, Locke, and Bilcke. Bowen has done very little for this team in fact there's a good chance he doesn't even make the Spits next year looking at how many D are returning. So we are now down to 6 out of 38. I have nothing against Whaley and he made it work but he made his mark with Plymouth playing 2 full seasons. Locke has been the most productive but he only lasted half a season in Windsor. Give credit to Posa who has had a long and productive career. I don't think Bilcke has provided a lot of value while in Windsor but I guess he can be included. The most talented guys were flyer picks in Ryan and Campbell. Most productive Locke and Posa. So after looking closer it's closer to 5 or 6 out of 38 which is right around 15%.

Btw I respectfully disagree with the idea of having to get 7-8 players. Maybe they will get 1 or 2 from this draft but those late round picks won't have much of a chance because of 2 1st round import picks which should be 17 or 18 years old and around for a couple years. Then next year with having a 1st and 3 2nd rounders those players are more likely to be given a chance to make the team over a late round pick in 13 unless those picks this year knock the socks off management but it's doubtful. You're also expecting too much the Spits are down to 5 current scouts as opposed to the days when they had 10 scouts and drafting real good players. With fewer scouts you see fewer games, fewer prospects so your expectations are far too high. This organization is cutting corners now and what you see is reflected with the on ice performance the past 2 years.

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03-26-2013, 12:41 PM
  #857
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You're also expecting too much the Spits are down to 5 current scouts as opposed to the days when they had 10 scouts and drafting real good players. With fewer scouts you see fewer games, fewer prospects so your expectations are far too high. This organization is cutting corners now and what you see is reflected with the on ice performance the past 2 years.
Good point re the scout situation. The more eyes you have out there, the better chance of getting value.

Hopefully they have a lot of contacts out there willing to help out, who are not on the payroll Not the time to be cutting the scouting dept but maybe the financials arent in good shape. Obviously they felt they had to trim the staff. A few good years and some PO gates should help

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03-26-2013, 01:40 PM
  #858
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Good point re the scout situation. The more eyes you have out there, the better chance of getting value.

Hopefully they have a lot of contacts out there willing to help out, who are not on the payroll Not the time to be cutting the scouting dept but maybe the financials arent in good shape. Obviously they felt they had to trim the staff. A few good years and some PO gates should help
It also depends on the scouts that have left if they weren't pulling their weight then that's fine. Rychel over a week ago said they need to go back to taking the best player period. He said they got wrapped up in projection tells me that's an indictment of the poor picks like Webermin, Maletta, Smith etc.. You take the best player regardless and move on from there. I don't believe for a moment when the Spits took Hunter Smith that he was better than DiFruscia, Bigras, Ben Harpur. Just as I don't believe Webermin was better than Pelech, Tom Wilson, and Kosmachuk etc.. If you go back to taking the best player you will have more success.

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03-26-2013, 02:37 PM
  #859
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Your right. Its easy to outsmart yourself. Trying to see something that may or may not be there.

Agree on taking the best available player. Itll sort itself out more oft than not.

There was an outcry by some Knights fans when they didnt grab Smith. Not so much anymore.

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03-26-2013, 03:35 PM
  #860
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I don't think the Spits got much value back when they moved Feasey either.
They got McNaughton, who's a serviceable 6th or 7th d-man.

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I have nothing against Whaley and he made it work but he made his mark with Plymouth playing 2 full seasons.
He still made his mark, though. Same with Locke; the both teams obviously saw enough in him to make the deal for Carnevale.

Bilcke - I'm not going down this road again, but if you wish to keep thinking he has no value, that's your choice. We'll just

As for the number of players in the draft - I wasn't referring to how many make the club this year, or even next year, on a regular basis. It was referring to how many bodies we have to choose from should we need it. We were calling up guys who, while they should be good down the road, shouldn't have been needed this year. Most nights, even with the call-ups, we were well below the league minimum for players dressed. If you draft 90% guys that are not going to college, then you've got those at your disposal in case something happens. I'd rather go that route with a draft like this than go "let's take the NCAA-or-bust kids because we've got too many returning players." If you take a bunch of flyers this year, and we're riddled with injuries again, you've got the same scenario as last year. That's not an option. Get the depth in here.

Oh, I just caught this now, but in all fairness to Turcotte, I don't think his lack of ability had much to do with him not being here. It may have played a part, but there were other factors.

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03-26-2013, 04:15 PM
  #861
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They got McNaughton, who's a serviceable 6th or 7th d-man.
No he's not... he got put on waivers (by a team out of the playoffs) and passed through all 3 leagues with no takers.

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03-26-2013, 04:27 PM
  #862
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I didn't say good, I said serviceable. Plus, he showed in training camp that he has reasonable potential.

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03-26-2013, 05:20 PM
  #863
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I didn't say good, I said serviceable. Plus, he showed in training camp that he has reasonable potential.
That speaks to how poor the talent is in Windsor right now. If McNaughton was serviceable he would have been picked up by another junior team. He's going to be 19 next year he shouldn't get an invite to camp. As for Bilcke I still question how talented he is because I think there are 13-15 other teams he couldn't make.


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03-26-2013, 05:24 PM
  #864
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It speaks to how low our depth is. Nothing to do with talent level. You could have five #1 d-men on a team. If you have to use Brady Vail as your 6th d-man (and this year, he was on the top pairing at times), you need depth!

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03-26-2013, 06:57 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by OHLTG View Post
It speaks to how low our depth is. Nothing to do with talent level. You could have five #1 d-men on a team. If you have to use Brady Vail as your 6th d-man (and this year, he was on the top pairing at times), you need depth!
You're flat out nuts. If I had 5 #1 D I don't care who my #6 is, it could be Jimmy 10 houses down the street and I would still win 70% of my hockey games.

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03-26-2013, 09:16 PM
  #866
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You're flat out nuts. If I had 5 #1 D I don't care who my #6 is, it could be Jimmy 10 houses down the street and I would still win 70% of my hockey games.
You're either missing my point on purpose or you're not paying attention.

We had Sieloff, Bateman, and Koekkoek out for the year, basically. If we had ANY depth back on the blue-line, Vail wouldn't have played on defence, and we wouldn't have had to use McNaughton back there for a few games, either.

The talent level wasn't bad (wasn't great, either), but that wasn't the issue. It was a pure lack of depth, which was exposed because of injuries. We can't afford to have that happen again next year, so drafting a bunch of flyers because we have a young team shouldn't be an option.

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03-26-2013, 09:26 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by OHLTG View Post
You're either missing my point on purpose or you're not paying attention.

We had Sieloff, Bateman, and Koekkoek out for the year, basically. If we had ANY depth back on the blue-line, Vail wouldn't have played on defence, and we wouldn't have had to use McNaughton back there for a few games, either.

The talent level wasn't bad (wasn't great, either), but that wasn't the issue. It was a pure lack of depth, which was exposed because of injuries. We can't afford to have that happen again next year, so drafting a bunch of flyers because we have a young team shouldn't be an option.
There needs to be better depth but the Spits drafted D's in Morrison and Hughes round 7 and 8. If the Spits liked those guys they should have been signed and you could see them for a couple games here and there. Maybe those guys don't want to commit to Windsor? The depth was hurt as well due to poor use of their 30 cards this year. If they didn't use cards on Ionin, Bezuch and others the depth issue would have been addressed.

Well they didn't take flyers in the form of Morrison, Hughes, Killins, Kotsovos etc.. Yes the organization took some flyers last year but not a lot and look where it got them, they took safe picks and it didn't help. I will tell you one thing if Sean Day ends up sliding in the draft where the Spits could have gotten him the fan base should be livid and Rychel should resign.

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03-26-2013, 10:27 PM
  #868
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
There needs to be better depth but the Spits drafted D's in Morrison and Hughes round 7 and 8. If the Spits liked those guys they should have been signed and you could see them for a couple games here and there. Maybe those guys don't want to commit to Windsor? The depth was hurt as well due to poor use of their 30 cards this year. If they didn't use cards on Ionin, Bezuch and others the depth issue would have been addressed.

Well they didn't take flyers in the form of Morrison, Hughes, Killins, Kotsovos etc.. Yes the organization took some flyers last year but not a lot and look where it got them, they took safe picks and it didn't help. I will tell you one thing if Sean Day ends up sliding in the draft where the Spits could have gotten him the fan base should be livid and Rychel should resign.
As part of the Fan Base you can rest assured I'm already livid. I've a pair of ducats in 109 that are heading to the open market unless I sense some kind of change in direction in the wind. WR and the coaching staff have ridden on the coat tails of the Memorial Cup wins long enough. It seems IMHO that over the course of the last few years management has made more and more poor decisions when it comes to the drafting and the teaching of those players. Perhaps the scouting staff has done a poor job, perhaps the GM has ignored their recommendations or perhaps the coach/owner has over ruled the GM I don't know but in the end the product on the ice is not what it should be. No one expects the team to win a Memorial cup every year but at the inflated pricing we face it's not unreasonable to expect a competitive team. It seems very apparent to me that WR made some terrible decisions early on in the past season that ended up coming back to bite us in the ass and leaving the team short handed on too many nights.
The mistakes, errors in judgement and apparent poor discipline when it comes to looking after the players is beginning to remind me of previous ownership's. If we aren't there already we are once again becoming a place that players/parents wish to avoid.
Perhaps it's time to break up the old boy's club that's running the team, get some new blood in the ownership group and coaching staff and get back to Spitfire hockey.

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03-26-2013, 11:22 PM
  #869
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Rayzor, I'm not disagreeing that our past drafts have been average at best, thus hurting the current depth. I'm saying in this year's draft, we need to get as many "I'll report to Windsor" players as we can, given our obvious lack of depth this year. Sure, we've taken plenty of players in the past that weren't NCAA-or-bust, but this year it's crucial that we get kids that want to be here. You said you were "fine" with this years draft being "full of flyer picks." We can't do that. That's a massive risk given what little we have in the Jr B ranks right now. Take the kids who want to come to Windsor, then, once we have a reasonable amount of picks, and the program has picked back up, take a stab at some NCAA-or-bust potentials.

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03-27-2013, 08:02 AM
  #870
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I will tell you one thing if Sean Day ends up sliding in the draft where the Spits could have gotten him the fan base should be livid and Rychel should resign.
Sean Day slip? To #4? Is there any doubt he's going to Ottawa?

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03-27-2013, 01:00 PM
  #871
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Sean Day slip? To #4? Is there any doubt he's going to Ottawa?
He's not going #1 by all accounts, some question if he even goes 2nd. After that we are getting into dicey territory so it's quite possible he falls.

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03-27-2013, 01:17 PM
  #872
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Rayzor, I'm not disagreeing that our past drafts have been average at best, thus hurting the current depth. I'm saying in this year's draft, we need to get as many "I'll report to Windsor" players as we can, given our obvious lack of depth this year. Sure, we've taken plenty of players in the past that weren't NCAA-or-bust, but this year it's crucial that we get kids that want to be here. You said you were "fine" with this years draft being "full of flyer picks." We can't do that. That's a massive risk given what little we have in the Jr B ranks right now. Take the kids who want to come to Windsor, then, once we have a reasonable amount of picks, and the program has picked back up, take a stab at some NCAA-or-bust potentials.
There's a good chance none of the players selected this year would even make the team or if they did it would be a minimal one at best. I have questions whether Sanvido can become a good OHL defenseman his skating is extremely poor, Verbeek didn't do a lot this year and from what people say he does not take to teaching. The 2014 draft is the important one this one is already done.

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03-27-2013, 01:38 PM
  #873
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As part of the Fan Base you can rest assured I'm already livid. I've a pair of ducats in 109 that are heading to the open market unless I sense some kind of change in direction in the wind. WR and the coaching staff have ridden on the coat tails of the Memorial Cup wins long enough. It seems IMHO that over the course of the last few years management has made more and more poor decisions when it comes to the drafting and the teaching of those players. Perhaps the scouting staff has done a poor job, perhaps the GM has ignored their recommendations or perhaps the coach/owner has over ruled the GM I don't know but in the end the product on the ice is not what it should be. No one expects the team to win a Memorial cup every year but at the inflated pricing we face it's not unreasonable to expect a competitive team. It seems very apparent to me that WR made some terrible decisions early on in the past season that ended up coming back to bite us in the ass and leaving the team short handed on too many nights.
The mistakes, errors in judgement and apparent poor discipline when it comes to looking after the players is beginning to remind me of previous ownership's. If we aren't there already we are once again becoming a place that players/parents wish to avoid.
Perhaps it's time to break up the old boy's club that's running the team, get some new blood in the ownership group and coaching staff and get back to Spitfire hockey.
That is all fair and reasonable, to renew season tickets right now with hope of them being real good takes a big leap of faith imo. I think they could be good come 2015 but barring emptying the cupboards because you win the Memorial Cup bid it will take improved management and scouting to make it better. Imo it went downhill when Boughner went to Columbus, they made a nice run but had nothing to show for it at the end except a graduating Ellis and Kassian. Boughner can be blamed for coaching issues obviously but the blame for drafting and trades go to Rychel. Boughner trusted Rychel to mind the shop while he left and it turned out poorly.

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03-27-2013, 03:06 PM
  #874
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There's a good chance none of the players selected this year would even make the team or if they did it would be a minimal one at best. I have questions whether Sanvido can become a good OHL defenseman his skating is extremely poor, Verbeek didn't do a lot this year and from what people say he does not take to teaching. The 2014 draft is the important one this one is already done.
Studnika is a waste. He is physically week And as soft as they come.

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03-27-2013, 03:51 PM
  #875
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
There's a good chance none of the players selected this year would even make the team or if they did it would be a minimal one at best. I have questions whether Sanvido can become a good OHL defenseman his skating is extremely poor, Verbeek didn't do a lot this year and from what people say he does not take to teaching. The 2014 draft is the important one this one is already done.
You don't need them to make the roster out of camp. You need players available to you if the need arises. If you draft all flyers, they're not going to show up for a game or two when the time comes. They're all-or-nothing.

As for Sanvido - when you're 6'6 230lbs at at 17, you're not going to be a great skater. The kid is a shut-down d-man with a wing span that darn near is the entire zone. I recall him saying he was sick at one point this year, thus his endurance wasn't what he wanted. Give him time. He's going to be good.

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