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Homer Lavy bye/bye

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Old
03-27-2013, 10:06 AM
  #51
Curufinwe
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Originally Posted by Jgboys1 View Post
^^^This^^^

I think this team just needs to shore up the D and get better goaltending and we will be right back in the thick of things next season. I really like our young guns on offense. I hope we don't do anything dumb before the trade dead line.
I think these recent losses must have convinced even Snider that this team will not make the playoffs.

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03-27-2013, 10:12 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Why do people to this day STILL blame Holmgren for that? Trading Richards and Carter was an order from Snider. Signing Bryzgalov to a fat contract was an order from Snider. Holmgren was just following orders. Hell, the reason Holmgren had to trade Bob was because of our old, impatient ******** of an owner. Like I said earlier, it won't matter who the g.m. of this team is as long as Ed Snider is running this team.
Snider isn't firing himself for that.

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03-27-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Why do people to this day STILL blame Holmgren for that? Trading Richards and Carter was an order from Snider. Signing Bryzgalov to a fat contract was an order from Snider. Holmgren was just following orders. Hell, the reason Holmgren had to trade Bob was because of our old, impatient ******** of an owner. Like I said earlier, it won't matter who the g.m. of this team is as long as Ed Snider is running this team.
I agree

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03-27-2013, 10:18 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Snider isn't firing himself for that.
... No duh. My point is Holmgren shouldn't be blamed for the moves he was forced to make. Yet some people can't seem to grasp that.

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03-27-2013, 10:20 AM
  #55
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Ha, Homer got nothing good over last years FA so fire him... ********... He is not all to blame on this. That is Lavy. Let us repeat: Homer told Lavy to adjust the system to better use the players as he wasn't able to land any players in FA that would fit his system and Lavy said no. Straight up no to the GM. At that point all blame is on him. He has misused every asset on this team and it has gotten to the point even Milbury and Jones literally laugh at the teams system.

Do they laugh at the players? **** no: they laugh at the down right hilarious **** the players are being told to do. Homers job is to get the best players available. Lavy is to use them to maximize the value. Homer went big and failed and got some side ****... So fire him? Haha. No. Fire the guy who's trying to use gervais as a pinching offensive puck moving rushing d man. Not the person who brought him in, over one crappy FA period.
Homer got players that don't fit the ideal of the coach. The coach can only do so much with what he has. Lavy can't make LSchenn a PMD nor did he trade for him. That is all Homer. He uses Gervais as a PMD because tbh, Gervais is probably the best d-man the team has that can move the puck besides Kimmo.

I am sure Lavy controls the decision making for each individual player on the ice. He 100% tells them to turn the puck over, make bad decisions, and take dumb penalties etc.

The blame is on the entire organization from the owner on down. It isn't just the coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Why do people to this day STILL blame Holmgren for that? Trading Richards and Carter was an order from Snider. Signing Bryzgalov to a fat contract was an order from Snider. Holmgren was just following orders. Hell, the reason Holmgren had to trade Bob was because of our old, impatient ******** of an owner. Like I said earlier, it won't matter who the g.m. of this team is as long as Ed Snider is running this team.
So if your boss orders you to fire yourself, you should do it? Homer should have talked to Snider before making each decision. I am sure he did, but if he didn't then that is just terrible. If the fat contract Bryz was demanding in negotiations was getting outrageous then you let your boss know about it and convince him moving in a different direction would be best.

Fact is, both Snider and Holmgren both deserve blame. Homer gets more though because he is the one actually handling the trades, signings, etc.

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03-27-2013, 10:25 AM
  #56
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Ed Snider runs the show so no matter who is replaced, Lavvy or Homer, that won't change. Any Gm that comes in will have to do as Ed says. Homer's moves (mostly miscalculations) have come from Snider. When Ed says jump, it's how high. Snider doesn't have any patience and his 'lets hit a home run' every year approach doesn't work/ Swinging for the fences gets you more strikeouts than homeruns.

Ed doesn't get that a succesful team builds a championship they don't buy one.
Look at the talent on the Phantoms Cup winning team that we had in our backyard. Had Snider not been so impatient, this woiuld be a contender and maybe even a Cup winner. Seidenberg and Sharpe should be on this team, and hte Richards trade was a total win for LA. You have a guy with a pedigree that high, that much of a playoff warrior and leader who at the age of 20 already led 3 teams to championships, you build a team around him, starting with a goalie. Bob McKenzie (terrific NHL analyst) said of that trade it was a huge risk by Homer because he was betting on 'projected to be' while Lombardi got the sure thing. He also said he'd not have traded Richards for a prospect, that you don't move a proven winner and pure champion without getting the same or close to in return.

What does a good GM do?
Lombardi took over in LA and told he owners his vision, to trust him and give him abour 5 years and he'd crfeate a team that would contend for years. He told them there would be years when they'd not make the playoffs, but they'd learn and grow and he was more interested in creating a winning culture with those young players learning and growing together. He wasn't willing to sacrifice the future for a 'quick fix' ANd he did just that. HE held onto his young assests, even when he got insane offers for Kopitar, he stayed firm.

When they got so far and needed veteran help, he signed Scuderi and Mitchell, traded for Greene and Stoll and then got Mike RIchards, which was he said 'the last piece of my four foundations ' that he felt are required to be a contender , a stud goalie, an elite defenseman and two stud two way centers.
Per an article at the end of Feb, they Kings are the youngest team in the league (along wit hthe Avs ) aver age 26.4 (Flyers were one of the oldest ave age 28.5)
Kings are the biggest team in the leage , ave weight 210 lbs , except for Richards all ov er 6 ft. Four lines of forwards that are defensively responsible and can shut down antying you put in front of them and since March 1st thru last week, averaging over 3.5 goals per game.

He's got a deep rich farm system, great goalie, top ranked defense, this year an offense in the top 10 and all core players signed long term and they are close to 9 mill under the Cap with 9 picks in this years draft.

That's what a good team is, what a good GM does. He creates a contender and knows how to harvest young talent in the farm systesm, to have faith in a plan and let your young talented players grow and develop the right way (not rush them up too early or trade them) , he knows how to manage the Cap and not overpay, and finds the right coach, who creates a system based on what type of players he has.

The Flyers have some very good young players that with some patience and the right moves (and that includes trying to build thru the draft) they can build for the future. But that won't be easy since they are a mess Cap wise (close to 70 mill now) and even buying out Brzy and Briere won't help that, not with 4 players to sign in addition to a new goalie. That means w/o a trade from one of the top 6, no money for a top line D. And G's new contract will b e in the 9 mill per year range, same year that B Schenns current 3.2 is up for renewal.

But Ed has no patience, so my fear is that he'll sacrifice another lamb (and I read an article from one of the Toronto papers yesterday that said Homer is quietly shopping Couturier ) for a quick fix that won't work

You can't keep throwing players in the same room every six months and expect them to grow . Chemistry doens't work that way.
THey had a good team in 2010, and that incredible run they went thru together bound them and that glue could havre been something special to build upon. They could have made adjustments (and not signed Leighton) and addressed the goaltending issue, without panicing in 2011 and gutting the core, they would be a better team today.

I really want these young players to grow together, stop trading the youth away. Cut off the deadwood, figure out how to work a Cap right and plan for the future.

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03-27-2013, 10:44 AM
  #57
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very interesting article in the post star:

http://poststar.com/sports/phantoms-...a4bcf887a.html

during the strike, you send your young talent to the phantoms and have them play a different system. then when they return to th flyers , they are lost and nobody can understand.

look at Erik Gustafsson,s comment. our defense plays one system while deveoping with the phantoms and a whole other system when the go to the big club. is it any wonder the flyrs do not deveope any players. can this be the problem with Shenn and Couturier. has the organization totally confused them with their tme with the phantoms

one of the main jobs of a gm is to develope talent. it is accomplished by being consistant in your whole organization. holmgren has not done this. he needs to be replaced by someone who lilke lou l. who know how to put a TOTAL ORGANIZATION IN PLACE.

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03-27-2013, 10:44 AM
  #58
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B Schenn can expect a pay raise, but a slightly lower cap hit. He doesn't deserve more than what PK Subban got.

They will be fine under the Cap for 2014-15 even with Giroux getting around $8 million because Timmonen, Briere, Mezaros and probably Bryzgalov will all be gone.

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Old
03-27-2013, 10:52 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by deeshamrock View Post
Ed Snider runs the show so no matter who is replaced, Lavvy or Homer, that won't change. Any Gm that comes in will have to do as Ed says. Homer's moves (mostly miscalculations) have come from Snider. When Ed says jump, it's how high. Snider doesn't have any patience and his 'lets hit a home run' every year approach doesn't work/ Swinging for the fences gets you more strikeouts than homeruns.

Ed doesn't get that a succesful team builds a championship they don't buy one.
Look at the talent on the Phantoms Cup winning team that we had in our backyard. Had Snider not been so impatient, this woiuld be a contender and maybe even a Cup winner. Seidenberg and Sharpe should be on this team, and hte Richards trade was a total win for LA. You have a guy with a pedigree that high, that much of a playoff warrior and leader who at the age of 20 already led 3 teams to championships, you build a team around him, starting with a goalie. Bob McKenzie (terrific NHL analyst) said of that trade it was a huge risk by Homer because he was betting on 'projected to be' while Lombardi got the sure thing. He also said he'd not have traded Richards for a prospect, that you don't move a proven winner and pure champion without getting the same or close to in return.

What does a good GM do?
Lombardi took over in LA and told he owners his vision, to trust him and give him abour 5 years and he'd crfeate a team that would contend for years. He told them there would be years when they'd not make the playoffs, but they'd learn and grow and he was more interested in creating a winning culture with those young players learning and growing together. He wasn't willing to sacrifice the future for a 'quick fix' ANd he did just that. HE held onto his young assests, even when he got insane offers for Kopitar, he stayed firm.

When they got so far and needed veteran help, he signed Scuderi and Mitchell, traded for Greene and Stoll and then got Mike RIchards, which was he said 'the last piece of my four foundations ' that he felt are required to be a contender , a stud goalie, an elite defenseman and two stud two way centers.
Per an article at the end of Feb, they Kings are the youngest team in the league (along wit hthe Avs ) aver age 26.4 (Flyers were one of the oldest ave age 28.5)
Kings are the biggest team in the leage , ave weight 210 lbs , except for Richards all ov er 6 ft. Four lines of forwards that are defensively responsible and can shut down antying you put in front of them and since March 1st thru last week, averaging over 3.5 goals per game.

He's got a deep rich farm system, great goalie, top ranked defense, this year an offense in the top 10 and all core players signed long term and they are close to 9 mill under the Cap with 9 picks in this years draft.

That's what a good team is, what a good GM does. He creates a contender and knows how to harvest young talent in the farm systesm, to have faith in a plan and let your young talented players grow and develop the right way (not rush them up too early or trade them) , he knows how to manage the Cap and not overpay, and finds the right coach, who creates a system based on what type of players he has.

The Flyers have some very good young players that with some patience and the right moves (and that includes trying to build thru the draft) they can build for the future. But that won't be easy since they are a mess Cap wise (close to 70 mill now) and even buying out Brzy and Briere won't help that, not with 4 players to sign in addition to a new goalie. That means w/o a trade from one of the top 6, no money for a top line D. And G's new contract will b e in the 9 mill per year range, same year that B Schenns current 3.2 is up for renewal.

But Ed has no patience, so my fear is that he'll sacrifice another lamb (and I read an article from one of the Toronto papers yesterday that said Homer is quietly shopping Couturier ) for a quick fix that won't work

You can't keep throwing players in the same room every six months and expect them to grow . Chemistry doens't work that way.
THey had a good team in 2010, and that incredible run they went thru together bound them and that glue could havre been something special to build upon. They could have made adjustments (and not signed Leighton) and addressed the goaltending issue, without panicing in 2011 and gutting the core, they would be a better team today.

I really want these young players to grow together, stop trading the youth away. Cut off the deadwood, figure out how to work a Cap right and plan for the future.
we had lombardi and we let him go for a second round pick....Michael Ratchuk. think of how the history might have changed if the flyers made lombari the gm

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03-27-2013, 11:32 AM
  #60
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The more alarming factor here is why in the world do we we keep trading away our 1st rd
selected players.
Since the year 2000, we've traded:

Williams
Woywitka
Pitkanen
Carter
Richards
Downie
JVR
Sbisa


12 years and all we have to show for it is Giroux/Laughton/Couts

And Couts is practically being run out of town lately. Can we hold on to one for god's sake.


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03-27-2013, 11:34 AM
  #61
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Get Hextall. He has been over there for a while now and I'm sure he learned a few things

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03-27-2013, 11:35 AM
  #62
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we had lombardi and we let him go for a second round pick....Michael Ratchuk. think of how the history might have changed if the flyers made lombari the gm
And Ron Hextall is Lombardi's right hand man and has been very involved in developing the players for the parent club. He 's learned from DL about how to draft right, keep a rich farm system stocked with assets for both the parent club or to trade. THey got Richards because of Schenn, they have several top prospects that they can use this year to fill the need of a top D (2 key D's down all year to injury) and a top 6 LW for the 2nd line. And having 9 picks in this years draft means he's got those to throw in as well.
I've heard Hextall interviewed and he's a very smart guy, very schooled in what it takes to create a winning environment.
Even the fact he made sure the Monarchs (AHL) have the same system as the Kings, so when you have to bring up a player, esp in the middle of a season due to injury, it's a seamless transition. ONe of the first things Darryl Sutter did after he became coach was to go to see some Monarchs games and he identified something the Kings needed size on wing. So he brought up the two biggest wingers King and Nolan both over 6'3 and 230 lbs and bring them up. They fit in right away and were both key elements in the Cup run. Seamless transition

And the fans still have enough love for Hexy that if chosen, he'd be welcomed. But the problem remains that Ed Snider would have to buy into a rebuild philosophy and have to give this team time to grow. THat's an issue.

But with his FLyers background (my fav Hexy moment is the hit on Chelios) talent he's shown in management and that Lombardi gave Hexy a lot of freedom to develop the Monarchs and make sure they kept the farm well stocked with talent, he's learned how to work the Cap, he's all about the 'building a winning culture' mentality, he's learned a lot and would be a good fit should they decide to replace the GM.
Also would keep LA as a good trading partner.


Last edited by deeshamrock: 03-27-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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Old
03-27-2013, 11:39 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teezax View Post
The more alarming factor here is why in the world do we we keep trading away our 1st rd
selected players.
Since the year 2000, we've traded:

Williams
Woywitka
Pitkanen
Carter
Richards
Downie
JVR
Sbisa


12 years and all we have to show for it is Giroux/Laughton/Couts

And Couts is practically being run out of town lately. Can we hold to one for god's sake.
you act as if we traded away all those guys and got nothing to note of in return

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03-27-2013, 11:45 AM
  #64
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I still think this team can be a playoff team. We just need someone who can come in and find a few pieces for the present team and start building for the future

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03-27-2013, 11:55 AM
  #65
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While all of Pronger's previous teams that he left all were sent into the abyss of irrelevance, the Pronger trade itself is ancient history at this point. That was almost 4 years ago.

What had been done each season to get better? The year we got Pronger we had to clinch a playoff berth on the last day of the season. It's been more the job of the coach that we've done as well as we have. This year we downgraded both our defense and offense. The year before we traded away two key cogs to the eventual Cup Champs in favor of a goaltender who may or may not be a malcontent.

The only year the team got better was the year we had an awful season and went on a spending spree. Every year after that, the team got worse from one off-season to the next. Don't give me that they lost to the Cup Champion Bruins, because the organization obviously didn't care. I don't want no division titles as a point of reference either. They're irrelevant. I don't even know if Flyers have the banner hanging in the building. Holmgren has not "won" an off-season in years. That's the time of the year the team gets better, we get worse.


And don't tell me "well, he tried to get Parise, and Suter and Weber." He didn't. Period. The fact he was chasing ghosts and got burned is a condemnation, not to his credit.
We must have two different definitions of the term "worse." If anything, the team has stayed the same (up until this year). To me the team getting worse would mean, you know, the team actually got worse. Going to conference finals, Cup finals, and the second round in all but one year of his tenure doesn't strike me as a team getting worse each year. Again, you may not agree with moves he made or like the outlook of the future, but to say that the team has gotten worse each year is 100% inaccurate.

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03-27-2013, 11:58 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
... No duh. My point is Holmgren shouldn't be blamed for the moves he was forced to make. Yet some people can't seem to grasp that.
That doesn't absolve him from the various other failures.

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03-27-2013, 12:01 PM
  #67
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I have to say that there is an organizational culture problem with the Flyers that stems from the top. I remember when they let Lombardi go because they had him pigeonholed behind the Flyers crony brass. I said they would rue the day....sure enough he was influential in LA's cup success..

The Chairman- He cares but meddles too much (i.e. mandating Holmgren get Bryz etc.)

President and C.O.O. of Comcast-Spectacor Peter Luukko - Marketing puppet

The GM- Part of the good ole boy network. Recycles former Flyers past their prime and can't think beyond plan A. Competent for the most part but inconsistent and prone to the group think of the organization. Still gets input from Senior Vice President Bobby Clarke as he has admitted which I'm not so certain is a good thing anymore although he was a great player but a suspect GM particularly in his second term with the Flyers.

Assistant GM's - Paddock and Hanrahan. Paddock is too new to judge but Hanrahan needs an abacus. Dude doesn't seem to know basic math....horrible cap management and interpreting of CBA

Director of Hockey Operations Chris Pryor- Good

Director of Player Development Don Luce - Good

Director of Player Personnel Dave Brown - Good

The Coach - Competent but short shelf-lifer and also slow to adapt. Personnel does not complement his system

Coaching staff- Unclear how much added value they contribute but they seem ok apart from McCarthy who Lavi has said is his right hand man no matter what and of course Jeff Reese who I'm convinced is worse than Lemelin who thought he had a job for life until they finally let his @ss go after over a decade as goalie coach.

Athletic Trainer/Strength & Conditioning Coach Jim McCrossin - Fire him please!

TV Color Commentary Steve Coates - BIG DORK HOMER..FIRE HIM!

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03-27-2013, 12:02 PM
  #68
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We must have two different definitions of the term "worse." If anything, the team has stayed the same (up until this year). To me the team getting worse would mean, you know, the team actually got worse. Going to conference finals, Cup finals, and the second round in all but one year of his tenure doesn't strike me as a team getting worse each year. Again, you may not agree with moves he made or like the outlook of the future, but to say that the team has gotten worse each year is 100% inaccurate.
It is not the goal of this organization to make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. And clearly given how the Devils series shaked out, we got the far because we got the right matchup in the Penguins. I was satisfied with that given the events of the previous summer, but the team took a clear step back because of the general manager.

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03-27-2013, 12:07 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
we had lombardi and we let him go for a second round pick....Michael Ratchuk. think of how the history might have changed if the flyers made lombari the gm
Snider wouldn't have patience with a guy like Lombardi. You think Snider would have wanted to go thru what they went thru in LA? Sure they ended up with the Cup but he was building up that organization thru the draft. Having patience. Stockpiling draft picks. developing them on their farm roster.
Would Snider have the patience for that if he was the GM all those years? He would of fired him and the fanbase would of wanted him fired after the 2nd hell maybe after the first non playoff year.

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03-27-2013, 12:10 PM
  #70
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It is not the goal of this organization to make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. And clearly given how the Devils series shaked out, we got the far because we got the right matchup in the Penguins. I was satisfied with that given the events of the previous summer, but the team took a clear step back because of the general manager.
I agree it is not the goal of the organization to do so, but that doesn't mean that making it to the second round (or further) in all but one year of his tenure here means the team has gotten worse each year. You want to say they have taken a step back this year, I'll agree with you whole-heartedly. But that is different from saying they have gotten worse each year.

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03-27-2013, 12:10 PM
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BTW...I do not think it is ever good for a GM to have to come into the lockeroom and swing sticks and show the veins in his neck. Sometimes it is necessary but not as often has it has occurred with the Flyers. Not sure how many times total he's had to come in there starting with John Stevens. He had one just recently with Lavi this season of course. Once is too many. I think Lamoriello has done it like once in his whole career or at least the only publicized one if I recall correcty was that playoff loss to the Flyers where he threw a jar of jelly against the wall..

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03-27-2013, 12:12 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
you act as if we traded away all those guys and got nothing to note of in return
That's not the point i'm trying to make.

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03-27-2013, 12:25 PM
  #73
GoneFullHextall
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i do agree with Meltzer thou nobodies job should be safe.

they have taken a step back this year. A pretty significant one at that.
Ill admit I overstated my "wrong direction" comment.

Holmgren does deserve criticism. He went all in last summer and the team did suffer because of it.

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03-27-2013, 12:30 PM
  #74
chimrichalds18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Snider wouldn't have patience with a guy like Lombardi. You think Snider would have wanted to go thru what they went thru in LA? Sure they ended up with the Cup but he was building up that organization thru the draft. Having patience. Stockpiling draft picks. developing them on their farm roster.
Would Snider have the patience for that if he was the GM all those years? He would of fired him and the fanbase would of wanted him fired after the 2nd hell maybe after the first non playoff year.
Then we're basically not winning until Snider dies or has a serious conversion. The days of buying Stanley Cups -- despite that never working for the Flyers -- are over, and everyone knows it. Name of the game is patience with some luck sprinkled in.

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03-27-2013, 12:34 PM
  #75
Rick Deckard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Snider wouldn't have patience with a guy like Lombardi. You think Snider would have wanted to go thru what they went thru in LA? Sure they ended up with the Cup but he was building up that organization thru the draft. Having patience. Stockpiling draft picks. developing them on their farm roster.
Would Snider have the patience for that if he was the GM all those years? He would of fired him and the fanbase would of wanted him fired after the 2nd hell maybe after the first non playoff year.
^^ That

Since '06 the Kings missed the Playoffs three times, afterwards lost twice in the first round and one the Cup last year. Noone in Philly would have accepted the first five seasons the Kings had. The Kings are the Pens of the West, they sucked and built their team through high Draft selections.

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