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Josh Gorges $3.9M/6 years Bad Contract or Good?

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Old
03-27-2013, 05:56 AM
  #26
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
you can say this has nothing to do with the 2 losses in a row, but thats when you created this.

Everything\one looks worse after 2 losses in a row, especially when the habs scored 1 goal.

contract and term are very fair for his contributions to the team. Easy to say, ohh leadership and shot blocking can be had for cheaper, but where are these defensemen?
Hardly anyone decent every makes it to free agency & are worth a premium on the trade market.

you dont what you got until its gonnnnnnnnnnnneeeeeeeeee

I think his leadership is overstated. He's 12th in blocked shots. Again, $4M for this? There may be dmen who will have a few less blocked shots but can actually do something offensively, who can move the puck, who bring a physical edge. All I'm saying is it's a lot of money for a shot blocker. He was perfect for a Martin system... Torts should grab him.

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03-27-2013, 06:11 AM
  #27
MXD
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Really similar case to Desharnais, in that the contract given make sense and is fair value, but you'd ultimately wish he was 10% cheaper.

Actually, 15% cheaper in Gorges case.

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03-27-2013, 06:13 AM
  #28
DAChampion
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3.9 million is not a huge amount of money for an effective player.

Josh Gorges is on the ice for 21 minutes a game. If you account for penalty kills and overtimes, Habs players who are not goalies play ~300 minutes a game.

The Habs have 62.55 million in cap space not allocated to goalies, and Gorges plays ~7% of that icetime, so he should be getting 4.38 million/year if he was a completely average player on the Habs.

He is getting about $400,000 less than that, so I think his salary is approximately correct. I expect his performance to slowly drop over the next 5 seasons, but I also expect the cap to slowly increase, so it's all good. In this case I consider Gorges' contract an asset, because he is a consistent player and it is valuable to have a consistent player locked in.

If Pateryn, Tinordi, and Ellis can become as good as people hope, then we have a solid trading chip in Gorges. If they fail to live up to our dreams, then we have some consistency on our defense, from Gorges.

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03-27-2013, 06:17 AM
  #29
MXD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
3.9 million is not a huge amount of money for an effective player.

Josh Gorges is on the ice for 21 minutes a game. If you account for penalty kills and overtimes, Habs players who are not goalies play ~300 minutes a game.

The Habs have 62.55 million in cap space not allocated to goalies, and Gorges plays ~7% of that icetime, so he should be getting 4.38 million/year if he was a completely average player on the Habs.

He is getting about $400,000 less than that, so I think his salary is approximately correct. I expect his performance to slowly drop over the next 5 seasons, but I also expect the cap to slowly increase, so it's all good. In this case I consider Gorges' contract an asset, because he is a consistent player and it is valuable to have a consistent player locked in.

If Pateryn, Tinordi, and Ellis can become as good as people hope, then we have a solid trading chip in Gorges. If they fail to live up to our dreams, then we have some consistency on our defense, from Gorges.
You analysis isn't bad, but you forgot one thing...
Rarity of skillset.

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03-27-2013, 06:33 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
You analysis isn't bad, but you forgot one thing...
Rarity of skillset.
Yes I know.

In the long run, I think the salaries of all replaceable players will converge to league minimum. But we're not there yet.

In the meantime, I'm not sure how to account for it. Do you have any ideas? Further, I think Gorges does have a rare skillset. He's a shutdown dman and he is good at it.

- Minor injury history.
- He is +29 since joining Montreal, in 372 games played.
- He should not be +29. He plays shutdown against offensive players from the defensive zone.

For example, this year his Corsi Rel QoC is +0.628, and he starts in the dzone 55 times for every 45 times he starts in the ozone. He faces similar challenges every year. Therefore, his +29 is even more impressive, as a "replaceable" player would quite frankly be around -7 in that role, so the difference is larger than 29 basis points, it's around ~36 basis points.

Explanation:
Gorges' Corsi Rel QoC over the years is around +0.7, which means he faces a shot excess of 0.7 shots every 60 minutes, since he plays 20 minutes a game that is 0.7 shots every 3 games, or 10 shots every 43 games. For 372 games, he should thus be ~-7 over those 372 games if he was a completely average player in the league.

That doesn't account for the dzone starts, which makes it worse, as I'm not sure how to account for that.

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03-27-2013, 08:13 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
3.9 million is not a huge amount of money for an effective player.

Josh Gorges is on the ice for 21 minutes a game. If you account for penalty kills and overtimes, Habs players who are not goalies play ~300 minutes a game.

The Habs have 62.55 million in cap space not allocated to goalies, and Gorges plays ~7% of that icetime, so he should be getting 4.38 million/year if he was a completely average player on the Habs.

He is getting about $400,000 less than that, so I think his salary is approximately correct. I expect his performance to slowly drop over the next 5 seasons, but I also expect the cap to slowly increase, so it's all good. In this case I consider Gorges' contract an asset, because he is a consistent player and it is valuable to have a consistent player locked in.

If Pateryn, Tinordi, and Ellis can become as good as people hope, then we have a solid trading chip in Gorges. If they fail to live up to our dreams, then we have some consistency on our defense, from Gorges.
Plus like Gionta he adds 750-1 mil of value a year by being a strong presence in the room and with young players. Having strong leaders and character players is a big part of winning teams vs skilled yet underachieving ones.

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03-27-2013, 08:13 AM
  #32
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Without divulging into comparable salaries or stats, one can account his worth for looking at what he does, not what he cannot do.

A hard nosed vet, who is vocal in the locker room and is a shot blocking machine (that will be a huge factor in the playoffs by the way).

He won't clear the crease with ease, nor will he get you 15 goals. However he shows qualities that every team should have. Character, showmanship, never-say-die mentality. Just the 'head down and give er' type guy who sets examples. Is never in the headlines, and I am okay with that.

Worth it.

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Old
03-27-2013, 08:53 AM
  #33
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He would get 3.5 to 4.5 on UFA market EASY depending on how many teams were looking to find a reliable stay at home guy who could cover a more offensive d-man (so A LOT of teams).... What do you expect?

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03-27-2013, 08:54 AM
  #34
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His contract is still a good deal even if he had a couple average games this year (ONLY)

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03-27-2013, 09:14 AM
  #35
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I don't mind him. That being said, I wish he was bigger and stronger. It seems he is hitting less this year also. And definitely, he's not blocking as many shots as he used to, as we just don't allow as much anymore.

His money is definitely high for what he brings though.

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03-27-2013, 09:34 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StellerEller View Post
His contract is fine if he's used right.

I know it's not his fault, but:

GET
HIM
OFF
THE
PP
I know that Gorges is a safe presence on the PP, but Emelin would be soooo much better

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03-27-2013, 09:36 AM
  #37
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Gorges, like Prust, Plekanec and Bouillon are the type of guys that bring their ''A'' game almost every game. They are worth every single penny we pay them.

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03-27-2013, 09:39 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BobBarker View Post
Gorges, like Prust, Plekanec and Bouillon are the type of guys that bring their ''A'' game almost every game. They are worth every single penny we pay them.
Under your respect, and Gorges' respect, I haven't seen Gorges bring his A game a lot of games this season.

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03-27-2013, 09:46 AM
  #39
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Contract is par value. He carries himself with an extremely high amount of maturity. He isn't afraid of taking a beating, not injury prone, dependable, blue collar worker. He can play in almost ANY situation panning out our depth.


He's going to age well with the habs. He's a defensive defensemen with a strong connection with our franchise goalie.


In any case, Were up by one goal game 7. 0:05 seconds left and FO in our zone. Pretty sure MT is going with Georges on the ice. Thats the type of player he is.

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Old
03-27-2013, 09:48 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Under your respect, and Gorges' respect, I haven't seen Gorges bring his A game a lot of games this season.
He's +5, blocks shots and still a great leader... Yeah ive seen him play better but he's not playing as bad overall as some say he is IMO.

Also get him off the PP

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I think his leadership is overstated. He's 12th in blocked shots. Again, $4M for this? There may be dmen who will have a few less blocked shots but can actually do something offensively, who can move the puck, who bring a physical edge. All I'm saying is it's a lot of money for a shot blocker. He was perfect for a Martin system... Torts should grab him.
you need some defensive D man in your team, and their contract are always controversial and questioned because their numbers aren't as good as a Subban or a Letang. there is more to this game than scoring goals, you need to keep the other team from scoring some too

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Old
03-27-2013, 09:50 AM
  #41
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I think it's a great contrtact now and will only get better as the cap rises. Gorges has something that can't be taught or coached. He'll step in front of a train to save a shot from going through if he had to. Can't say enough good things about Gorges. He's a must on a young team that needs to be reminded how to play hard every night.

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Old
03-27-2013, 09:51 AM
  #42
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I also hate Gorges on the PP, but you have to give the benefit of the doubt to Therrien about not putting Emelin on the PP. He hasn't been great at keeping the zone to start the season to say the least. He's been improving lately, though.

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Old
03-27-2013, 09:54 AM
  #43
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Not an amazing contract, not a necessarily bad one either. He'd be a perfect #4.
Not a fan of the length.

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Old
03-27-2013, 10:08 AM
  #44
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what is the relevance of the question...how does qualifying his contract as 'good' or 'bad' affect anything on the ice?

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03-27-2013, 10:09 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
what is the relevance of the question...how does qualifying his contract as 'good' or 'bad' affect anything on the ice?
It affects the psyche of those who are too naive to understand what a warrior can bring to a team.

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Old
03-27-2013, 10:12 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
It affects the psyche of those who are too naive to understand what a warrior can bring to a team.
lol got it

But for real...what difference does it make if it's good or bad?

When he plays well, everyone loves his contract...when he's not playing so well, everyone hates it.

Who cares!

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03-27-2013, 10:15 AM
  #47
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As solid #4 D as they come. Not going to find many more players as cap friendly as this playing the same role/minutes as effectively.

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03-27-2013, 10:19 AM
  #48
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Gorges hasnt been the same since his knee surgery a couple years ago, it seems he's lost a step and thats magnified by the fact he's already undersized as a defenceman.

It's strange considering prior to his sugery he was playing faster and stronger with a torn knee he had apparently suffered in his last year of junior

The cap hit isnt awful but the term is to long.

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03-27-2013, 10:20 AM
  #49
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This contract won't hurt the Canadiens in the future since we're not expecting any production from him, only steady defensive plays and lots of icetime, which is what he's giving us. Look likes he's a leader out there too.

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Old
03-27-2013, 10:23 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsrock76 View Post
Gorges hasnt been the same since his knee surgery a couple years ago, it seems he's lost a step and thats magnified by the fact he's already undersized as a defenceman.

It's strange considering prior to his sugery he was playing faster and stronger with a torn knee he had apparently suffered in his last year of junior

The cap hit isnt awful but the term is to long.
I think he's moving better than before the surgery. Still not great mobility but at least NHL average for a d-man.

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