HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-27-2013, 07:16 AM
  #376
JimAnchower
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Heres something interesting with respect to Seattle & Sacramento as it might relate to a Relocation of the Coyotes... as in maybe the Kings arent going anywhere at all.
As a side note, the Sacramento council approved the arena deal last night.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/91...ngs-arena-deal

JimAnchower is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 10:23 AM
  #377
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,770
vCash: 500
^^^ Thanks for posting that link.... it's going to be interesting to see how the NBA deals with this, as the City's stepped up to the plate with owners waiting in the wings. I dont see how Stern & the NBA could now possibly justify moving that franchise north to Seattle. I guess they could start pulling a Karmano's, demanding 'X' number of ST's be sold then moving the goalposts all over the field but still... not that I ever thought Seattle was logistically viable with a rushed relo this summer of the Coyotes if indeed that was ever even considered, but now with this, seems to me Seattle's just been handed a new & much higher numbered card in the wait line pursuant to the NBA & NHL. Levin had it right in wanting to build a hockey specific facility in Bellevue as clearly Hansen & Mr.Microsoft's only real focus & interest is in the NBA. And thats a shame. The NHL shouldnt ever have to take a backseat...

Killion is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 11:37 AM
  #378
theoriginal55
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 256
vCash: 500
Couple of thoughts. First, I can see NHL saying that Glendale owes them nothing for the shortened season and they will take the 20 million to fund 2013/2014 season. Second, does a new NBA arena in Sacramento now possibly put them into the NHL franchise sweepstakes?

theoriginal55 is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 11:45 AM
  #379
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 5,853
vCash: 350
http://www.glendalestar.com/news/art...9bb2963f4.html

So now that Beacon Sports Capital Partners LLC was the company selected during the March 26 council meeting, what is the CoG getting for their $25,000 + $400/hr capped at $100,000 ( that's only 250 hours so they better be quick )...

· Review all existing business contracts related to the operations and the management of the Jobing.com Arena including, current management agreement with the National Hockey League, and event booking.

· Assist the city in preparation of a RFP for the management of the arena to be available for review and response by qualified venue managers.

· On behalf of the city, solicit inquiries of interest and submit RFP to qualified venue managers, including assisting interested parties in their due diligence and review process

· Arrange and attend meetings with venue managers, including tours of the arena, as well as keep the city manager informed on all developments throughout the RFP process.

· Review all bids and inquiries submitted by venue managers and make recommendations to the city manager, mayor, and city council with regard to benefits of each.

· Assist city council, city manager, and mayor in the review and decision-making process, including providing a recommendation in terms of selecting a venue manager to negotiate on an exclusive basis.

· Assist in the development and negotiation of a new arena management agreement, as well as assist in the closing and execution of an arena management agreement between the city and the venue manager selected by Glendale.

cbcwpg is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 11:49 AM
  #380
Tinalera
Registered User
 
Tinalera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Known Universe
Posts: 6,025
vCash: 500
Someone tell me why I'm wrong, because I KNOW I am-

250 hours, that's like 10 days (or 20 if they are doing 12 hr a day).

They're supposed to find, report, recommend, and enact/put through a deal to keep the Yotes with a buyer and arena deal within 250 hours?

I know I'm missing something here, tell me what it is, please!

And they do this at a time with the season ending, the Yotes looking like they're going to miss the playoffs.

Something weird is going on here.

Tinalera is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 11:57 AM
  #381
goyotes
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,463
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Something weird is going on here.
You're just noticing that now.

goyotes is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 11:58 AM
  #382
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 5,853
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Someone tell me why I'm wrong, because I KNOW I am-

250 hours, that's like 10 days (or 20 if they are doing 12 hr a day).

They're supposed to find, report, recommend, and enact/put through a deal to keep the Yotes with a buyer and arena deal within 250 hours?I know I'm missing something here, tell me what it is, please!

And they do this at a time with the season ending, the Yotes looking like they're going to miss the playoffs.

Something weird is going on here.
Correct me if I'm wrong.... but I don't see anything in the duties of Beacon that has anything to do with the Coyotes. This is all about arena management the way I see it, and not about keeping the team... Or am I wrong?

cbcwpg is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 12:02 PM
  #383
Tinalera
Registered User
 
Tinalera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Known Universe
Posts: 6,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong.... but I don't see anything in the duties of Beacon that has anything to do with the Coyotes. This is all about arena management the way I see it, and not about keeping the team... Or am I wrong?
Yea, I was thinking it had to be about finding an owner for the Yotes, but you make the good point that there was nothing there about the Yotes, just finding an arena manager, with our without them, to work the arena. That makes more sense. I don't think you're wrong-I just jumped to conclusions

@Goyotes-well played

Tinalera is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 12:03 PM
  #384
Hawker14
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Someone tell me why I'm wrong, because I KNOW I am-

250 hours, that's like 10 days (or 20 if they are doing 12 hr a day).

They're supposed to find, report, recommend, and enact/put through a deal to keep the Yotes with a buyer and arena deal within 250 hours?

I know I'm missing something here, tell me what it is, please!

And they do this at a time with the season ending, the Yotes looking like they're going to miss the playoffs.

Something weird is going on here.
They just need to dust off their report of the situation from four years ago, jot in some new figures, and voila, it's done !

Personally, I would have expected Glendale to have been advised to go with, imo the top tier Allan & Co., especially at this critical juncture, but Glendale hasn't exactly been receiving stellar advice over the years.

Same old story. Same old results.

Hawker14 is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 12:14 PM
  #385
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theoriginal55 View Post
Second, does a new NBA arena in Sacramento now possibly put them into the NHL franchise sweepstakes?
I'd rather doubt that. The city already has a fairly crowded sports market, including bizarrely a team in a Professional Paintball League (Sacramento EXS pronounced Excessive which even more strangely plays out of Modesto). Whats not clear is just what the hecks going on between the Maloofs' & Hansen, as supposedly there was in fact a legally binding sale agreement signed between these two parties back on January 21st & confirmed by the Maloofs. The only reason any of this remotely germane or pertinent of course in speculating as to what the NHL might be planning. Fairly long line of Domino's, but with Ron Burkle involved in Sacramento, I wouldnt be counting my chickens before they hatched up in Seattle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Someone tell me why I'm wrong, because I KNOW I am- 250 hours, that's like 10 days (or 20 if they are doing 12 hr a day)...Something weird is going on here.
Ya thats for sure, and no question Beacon'll burn through that retainer & cap quickly enough. No way does 250hrs get this thing sorted.... billable hours, billable.... at full Attorney Rate.... eighty five lunches charged... Councillor?, you are the engine that drives this machine..... Intolerable Cruelty.... should be performance clauses, ryders & bonuses written into that Contract....

Killion is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 12:27 PM
  #386
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong.... but I don't see anything in the duties of Beacon that has anything to do with the Coyotes. This is all about arena management the way I see it, and not about keeping the team... Or am I wrong?
Their tasked with two issues, life with or life without the Coyotes in drafting two separate RFP's pursuant to the Arena Management Contract's. With the former obviously the AMC would be enjoined to the franchise ergo they would act as the lead in dealing with any potential buyer's, then presenting the COG with whatever it is that theyve' negotiated on behalf of Glendale, making recommendations, presenting it to Council for review & approval. Failing that, whatever proposals they receive for Arena Management Services absent an anchor tenant and likewise presented to Council.

And yes Hawker14, I agree. The COG shouldve gone elsewhere, your suggestion or perharps SportsCorp out of New York. Beacon's got history in Glendale, with the Reinsdorfs, Beasley, a lot of baggage.... but as your avy suggests, sometimes stupid is as stupid does. A completely fresh set of eyes free of any accusations or hint of duplicity whats absolutely required, a firm with considerably more heft, weight & experience. Beacon is several notches below top end & if your going to be taking on the NHL, youd best be hiring a Super Heavy and not Middle Weights.


Last edited by Killion: 03-27-2013 at 12:36 PM.
Killion is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 12:47 PM
  #387
jol
Registered User
 
jol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Miami Beach, Florida
Posts: 1,567
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork View Post
I think the best example is the "Income War Tax Act, 1917", not yet repealed despite the end of a few wars and one change of name.
They are not yet over, for example, Pentagon is still paying pensions to two disabled children of Civil War veterans.
Ten people are still getting pensions from the Spanish-American War, which ended in 1898. Total cost: $50,000 a year.
World War I, $20 million worth of pensions etc

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/03/2...#storylink=cpy

JOL

jol is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 12:48 PM
  #388
Mork
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,528
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Mork
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
suddenly realizing she was married to the most inarticulate man in the world, aline chrétien turned from the intruder and whacked the prime minister in the head with the inuit carving ... (history revisited)
I was particularly amused when he rebuffed media enquiries about the timing of the next election by saying he would ask Aline when would be a good time for his next election. The response was so absurd that I chuckled to think he might have misheard the question and would be asking his wife about the best timing for his next . . . well you know: not an "election" but something more intimate and appropriate to the marital relationship.

Mork is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 01:32 PM
  #389
Tinalera
Registered User
 
Tinalera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Known Universe
Posts: 6,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Their tasked with two issues, life with or life without the Coyotes in drafting two separate RFP's pursuant to the Arena Management Contract's. With the former obviously the AMC would be enjoined to the franchise ergo they would act as the lead in dealing with any potential buyer's, then presenting the COG with whatever it is that theyve' negotiated on behalf of Glendale, making recommendations, presenting it to Council for review & approval. Failing that, whatever proposals they receive for Arena Management Services absent an anchor tenant and likewise presented to Council.

And yes Hawker14, I agree. The COG shouldve gone elsewhere, your suggestion or perharps SportsCorp out of New York. Beacon's got history in Glendale, with the Reinsdorfs, Beasley, a lot of baggage.... but as your avy suggests, sometimes stupid is as stupid does. A completely fresh set of eyes free of any accusations or hint of duplicity whats absolutely required, a firm with considerably more heft, weight & experience. Beacon is several notches below top end & if your going to be taking on the NHL, youd best be hiring a Super Heavy and not Middle Weights.
And that's where it's interesting-trying to find some enjoy(end)ment with the Yotes as anchor would mean you're having to find someone who is willing to buy the team, but what happens if its a deal that's okay with CoG but not the NHL? I guess that's part and parcel of the process. Only thing I'm thinking is that there IS someone out there who wants to manage the arena (wink wink, nudge nudge) but may not want the anchor tenant, then the 250 hours sounds more reasonable-like they're there to negotiate a deal right away. Only way the 250 hours works I think-they must have some potentials lined up and they're using these guys to find out each (if there more than one) "best deal", and they present it to CoG-again, not necessarily Yotes owners, but just arena managers.

Tinalera is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 01:32 PM
  #390
Major4Boarding
Global Moderator
Private Equity
 
Major4Boarding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of Heaven
Country: Scotland
Posts: 1,812
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong.... but I don't see anything in the duties of Beacon that has anything to do with the Coyotes. This is all about arena management the way I see it, and not about keeping the team... Or am I wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Yea, I was thinking it had to be about finding an owner for the Yotes, but you make the good point that there was nothing there about the Yotes, just finding an arena manager, with our without them, to work the arena. That makes more sense. I don't think you're wrong-I just jumped to conclusions

@Goyotes-well played
That's the way I'm reading it too. Also, FYI - with the retainer and per hour price tag, those are "Billable Hours" and the clock only starts when the actually "touch" the work involved. I see them burning through a good chunk of that in the onset, but I can't see it burned all the way thru in 10 days, etc. More like 4-7 weeks, my guesstimation.

Major4Boarding is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 01:35 PM
  #391
Tinalera
Registered User
 
Tinalera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Known Universe
Posts: 6,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
That's the way I'm reading it too. Also, FYI - with the retainer and per hour price tag, those are "Billable Hours" and the clock only starts when the actually "touch" the work involved. I see them burning through a good chunk of that in the onset, but I can't see it burned all the way thru in 10 days, etc. More like 4-7 weeks, my guesstimation.
Thanks for the headsup about "billable hours"-makes a little more sense.

Also am wondering if this is a sign they really are preparing for life without the Yotes-seeing what exactly they CAN do with the arena should they leave.

Tinalera is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 01:42 PM
  #392
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8,137
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Yea, I was thinking it had to be about finding an owner for the Yotes, but you make the good point that there was nothing there about the Yotes, just finding an arena manager, with our without them, to work the arena. That makes more sense. I don't think you're wrong-I just jumped to conclusions

@Goyotes-well played
There's nothing to prevent the COG from using this process to gauge interest and options, and use that as leverage in the negotiations with the NHL, or conversely, to justify a subsidy for the Coyotes to retain them as an anchor tenant. Either way, it would seem that the COG comes out ahead. If they get a viable bid that works out well financially, for the first time they will not be in the position of having no viable options in their negotiations with the NHL. Previously, it has been the NHL using threats of relocation to extract money from the COG.

If they discover that without the Coyotes as an anchor tenant, there is no viable plan for managing the Jobing.com, then they would have that as a political and legal basis for justifying an inflated AMF for a Coyotes owner.

It makes one wonder why the previous council and city managers have resisted this approach so assiduously.

Whileee is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 01:55 PM
  #393
blues10
Registered User
 
blues10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,036
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
There's nothing to prevent the COG from using this process to gauge interest and options, and use that as leverage in the negotiations with the NHL, or conversely, to justify a subsidy for the Coyotes to retain them as an anchor tenant. Either way, it would seem that the COG comes out ahead. If they get a viable bid that works out well financially, for the first time they will not be in the position of having no viable options in their negotiations with the NHL. Previously, it has been the NHL using threats of relocation to extract money from the COG.

If they discover that without the Coyotes as an anchor tenant, there is no viable plan for managing the Jobing.com, then they would have that as a political and legal basis for justifying an inflated AMF for a Coyotes owner.

It makes one wonder why the previous council and city managers have resisted this approach so assiduously.
Beasley/Skeete informed council that it could affect ongoing negotiations to sell the Coyotes.

blues10 is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 01:55 PM
  #394
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
There's nothing to prevent the COG from using this process to gauge interest and options, and use that as leverage in the negotiations with the NHL, or conversely, to justify a subsidy for the Coyotes to retain them as an anchor tenant. Either way, it would seem that the COG comes out ahead. If they get a viable bid that works out well financially, for the first time they will not be in the position of having no viable options in their negotiations with the NHL. Previously, it has been the NHL using threats of relocation to extract money from the COG.

If they discover that without the Coyotes as an anchor tenant, there is no viable plan for managing the Jobing.com, then they would have that as a political and legal basis for justifying an inflated AMF for a Coyotes owner.

It makes one wonder why the previous council and city managers have resisted this approach so assiduously.
They didn't want to anger Gary.

Confucius is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 02:05 PM
  #395
JimAnchower
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blues10 View Post
Beasley/Skeete informed council that it could affect ongoing negotiations to sell the Coyotes.
If true, sounds like they know which of the two options it would help. And it wouldn't be the giant subsidy to keep the team option.

JimAnchower is offline  
Old
03-27-2013, 02:47 PM
  #396
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
And that's where it's interesting-trying to find some enjoy(end)ment with the Yotes as anchor would mean you're having to find someone who is willing to buy the team, but what happens if its a deal that's okay with CoG but not the NHL?
Yes, and this is where it gets circumspect with Beacon. They have a pre-existing and fairly close relationships with the Reinsdorfs, with Michaels company IFG specifically, they've had their names linked to if not included on writs pursuant to the CHL's shady dealings in Texas, California & Arizona (Hocking, AllState etc) and thats just for starters. Dont get me goin on Leventhal & Beacon.

October 2008, after Moyes comes looking for relief from the City, Ed Beasley upon Michael Reinsdorf's advice hires Beacon to conduct a study & assessment of the arena for $48,000, just under the $50,000 maximum that wouldve required Council approval. And so what did the city get for its 48K?...

*Expand Local Broadcast Revenues
*Increase Bookings of non-hockey events
*Increase suite sales
*Increase sponsorship & advertising
*Increase ticket sales


.... Thank you Captain Obvious. I'll be. 'F' me sideways. Who knew it was so simple?


Last edited by Killion: 03-27-2013 at 02:53 PM.
Killion is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 03:14 PM
  #397
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Thanks for the headsup about "billable hours"-makes a little more sense.... Also am wondering if this is a sign they really are preparing for life without the Yotes-seeing what exactly they CAN do with the arena should they leave.
Guess you missed this TL....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya thats for sure, and no question Beacon'll burn through that retainer & cap quickly enough. No way does 250hrs get this thing sorted.... billable hours, billable.... at full Attorney Rate.... eighty five lunches charged... Councillor?, you are the engine that drives this machine..... Intolerable Cruelty.... should be performance clauses, ryders & bonuses written into that Contract....
and M4B is I believe correct. They'll likely burn through $75,000 worth of Billables @ $400 an hour within 4-7 weeks.... dinners, drinks, designated drivers, dancers, 5 dollar bills, drycleaning next day. Easy to go through 75K in 45 days or less. Hell, I think my records about 7. Mind ye', I 'd bought a nice little 13' Boston Whaler with a Merc 60 hangin off the back. No recollection of having done so but at least I had something to show for it huh?

Killion is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 03:52 PM
  #398
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8,137
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blues10 View Post
Beasley/Skeete informed council that it could affect ongoing negotiations to sell the Coyotes.
Yup, I recall that. At the same time, they were claiming:

a) The Jobing.com arena was not viable without the Coyotes as an anchor tenant.
c) The AMF being offered was justified based on expenses and anticipated revenues.

Rather than conducting real due diligence, including by testing this in the market, they used the highly suspect analysis of TL Hocking to justify these claims.

Council members that favoured the Jamison deal agreed with them, as did many posting on this Board. If these two claims are correct, then surely a process of due diligence to demonstrate their veracity would have strengthened their position, not weakened it. In that case, the NHL and prospective owners should have been happy, because the COG could have gone ahead with a very attractive subsidy offer for a new owner, justified by their own due diligence.

Are we then to conclude that they didn't actually believe what they said (supported by Hocking), while asking Glendale citizens to accept it as fact?

Whileee is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 04:27 PM
  #399
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 21,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Are we then to conclude that they didn't actually believe what they said (supported by Hocking), while asking Glendale citizens to accept it as fact?
I believe they did believe that generally & collectively their positions were solid & sound as they had no reason to doubt the foundation upon which those beliefs were based. Didnt ask enough questions. Well beyond the scope of their lifes experiences and as such they put their trsut in, and had no reason not to trust their City Manager, Ellman, Bettman, Hulsizer & Jamison. No idea that they'd been coerced, a false system of values & beliefs instilled. Menticide. That their perceptions were incorrect, judgement clouded, faulty. Destabilised. Gaslit. Love Bombed. Gehirnwasche. Brainwashed.

Killion is online now  
Old
03-27-2013, 05:25 PM
  #400
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8,137
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I believe they did believe that generally & collectively their positions were solid & sound as they had no reason to doubt the foundation upon which those beliefs were based. Didnt ask enough questions. Well beyond the scope of their lifes experiences and as such they put their trsut in, and had no reason not to trust their City Manager, Ellman, Bettman, Hulsizer & Jamison. No idea that they'd been coerced, a false system of values & beliefs instilled. Menticide. That their perceptions were incorrect, judgement clouded, faulty. Destabilised. Gaslit. Love Bombed. Gehirnwasche. Brainwashed.
Sorry, Killion, I can't give them such an easy pass. All of them knew (including Clark and Martinez), that Beasley tried to pull a fast one on them by concealing the Walker report (on parking), while serving up Hocking's thin gruel. They complained about it publicly. Since then, Scruggs and others continuously asked for a report on the actual cost of managing the arena. Beasley refused, supported by the same council members who supported the Jamison deal. So, why, one might ask, would some council members want to have due diligence conducted to verify the claims of Beasley, while others did not. Are we to believe that Alvarez and Lieberman had higher mental capacity than the others?

Whileee is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:20 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.