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2013 Draft Discussion (Mar. 29 article, post #976)

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Old
03-27-2013, 12:20 PM
  #926
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
We're arguing over silly distinctions here. Answer this question honestly:

If the Philadelphia Flyers select __________________, I will be a happy fan.

A. Seth Jones
B. Nathon MacKinnon
C. Jonathon Drouin
D. All of the Above

Hell, you likely could have had a E and F that included Nurse and Barkov and I predict 98%+ of us would be completely ecstatic. Unlike the last time we were in a position to draft this high, we have A LOT of good stuff to choose from.
Any of them. If it's a top 3 pick though there's no way I'd trade it. I know everyone really wants a d-man with that pick, but there's no way I could pass on a chance to draft talents like Drouin or MacKinnon (or Barkov) just so I could do that. Obviously though the Flyers have to wind up with a top 3 pick for that to matter and then factor in the lottery.

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03-27-2013, 12:21 PM
  #927
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Colorado and Calgary play each other tonight. Meaning one of them has to win haha. Good news for us. Let's hope it goes to OT.

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03-27-2013, 12:26 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Any of them. If it's a top 3 pick though there's no way I'd trade it. I know everyone really wants a d-man with that pick, but there's no way I could pass on a chance to draft talents like Drouin or MacKinnon (or Barkov) just so I could do that. Obviously though the Flyers have to wind up with a top 3 pick for that to matter and then factor in the lottery.
If Florida gets the #1 picks, which it looks like they will assuming they win the lottery, do you think they will draft Jones? I don't think they would take MacKinnon because they have a ton of centers. I see them taking Drouin. They have Kulikov, Gudbranson, and Robak in the NHL right now, and a couple of pretty solid prospects in the pipe IIRC. Obviously Jones would be nice too, but I think Drouin might be their target.

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03-27-2013, 12:37 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Jones is talented enough to step right into a role next season. he may not reach his potential for a few seasons, but it's better than the 'fix a flat' system this team has utilized when it comes to defenseman and filling spots in general. i'd rather groom a highly touted kid from the get go in the NHL with the potential to be a franchise defenseman than neglect that need in the draft and trade for a guy who's development has halted (meyers) or fill the void with a stopgap with a big contract like Bouwmeester or Campbell. We need to end this mantra of filling our team with other teams unwanted material and expecting any significant success. if anything is to change, we need to start developing our own corner pieces. Jones would be the perfect start to that. I'm PERFECTLY willing to suck it up through the growing pains in order to finally have our own bonafide #1 defenseman that we didn't need to sacrifice the rest of the future and the prospect pool for.

honestly, i want jones badly. but if we can't get him, I'd be all about trading our #3ish pick for columbus' 1st and the rangers 1st. take a guy like Pulock, Nurse or Zadorov with the higher pick and then a guy like anthony mantha with the other.
The one thing that scares me is that the flyers have proved that they cannot groom/develop a defenseman properly in how many years? Of course I don't think they have ever had the chance to develop a Seth Jones type (would probably go straight into the NHL), but even developing players like Pulock or Zadorav makes me cringe a little knowing how impatient the fans and organization are.

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03-27-2013, 12:39 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If Florida gets the #1 picks, which it looks like they will assuming they win the lottery, do you think they will draft Jones? I don't think they would take MacKinnon because they have a ton of centers. I see them taking Drouin. They have Kulikov, Gudbranson, and Robak in the NHL right now, and a couple of pretty solid prospects in the pipe IIRC. Obviously Jones would be nice too, but I think Drouin might be their target.
Florida has a definitive need at C. Especially a #1 C. i think they would certainly take Mackinnon. They have multiple young defenseman to build around and a potential elite winger in Huberdeau. (played some C in juniors but is a winger now). the team we'd have to worry about is Colorado. They most definitely would take Jones IMO. We'd have to finish #2 at best to have a shot at jones i think. if florida finishes last and wins the lottery that means we'd likely have Jones in our grasps.

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03-27-2013, 12:42 PM
  #931
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If we finished say 26th and got the 5th overall pick, what would it take to trade up to #1? Probably something pretty significant considering whoever else is finishing that low is going to value a franchise d-man just as highly as the Flyers would, right?

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03-27-2013, 12:43 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If Florida gets the #1 picks, which it looks like they will assuming they win the lottery, do you think they will draft Jones? I don't think they would take MacKinnon because they have a ton of centers. I see them taking Drouin. They have Kulikov, Gudbranson, and Robak in the NHL right now, and a couple of pretty solid prospects in the pipe IIRC. Obviously Jones would be nice too, but I think Drouin might be their target.
I have no idea, but from reading their board, I'd say that they want MacKinnon more than Drouin or Jones. Right now Huberdeau isn't even playing center, Shore is centering that line. It's Colorado, to me at least, that would take Jones if the order stayed what it was right now. Obviously that's just my speculation though.

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03-27-2013, 12:46 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by Sniped View Post
The one thing that scares me is that the flyers have proved that they cannot groom/develop a defenseman properly in how many years? Of course I don't think they have ever had the chance to develop a Seth Jones type (would probably go straight into the NHL), but even developing players like Pulock or Zadorav makes me cringe a little knowing how impatient the fans and organization are.
everyone always says this, but if a kid is getting playing time then he's going to develop as he would in any other circumstance. any issues with the flyers developing of defensemen would be more exploited in the case of a defenseman taken in later rounds that would require more coaching and time in the AHL. But Jones isn't that. He's a top tier talent.

plus what examples do you have of this? the flyers haven't taken a defenseman in the 1st round since Sbisa and he played immediately after being drafted and looked on his way to developing into a top 4 defenseman until being traded to the ducks, where he's well liked and looks to be well on that path.

list of defensemen taken by the flyers in the 1st round since 2000:
2001-Jeff Woywitka - shouldn't have been taken as high as he was. was a reach then and has never really panned out
2002 - Joni Pitkanen - looked good early on, and was a legit top 4 defenseman here before being traded after the lost season. has become a steady cog in the carolina defense.
2009 - Luca Sbisa - played immediately following his draft year, and seemed to be a steal for the flyers. was traded to the ducks and has become a good young 2 way defenseman with plenty of room to grow.

i fail to see any evidence that the flyers wouldn't be able to "develop" a defenseman who's projected to be the best player in the draft and will most definitely be on the opening night roster.
defenseman are more of an unknown. defenseman taken in lower rounds are so much of a crapshoot that they're hard to project. you really can't blame the flyers for not being able to develop defenseman when we rarely take defenseman with our top picks and when there are so few very good defensemen in the league.

let's look at defenseman who were top 5 picks since, say, 2007:
2012:
Ryan Murray: injury problems this year. can still be a VERY good player
Griffin Reinhart: had a down season. still too early to tell.
morgan reilly: had a monster year. could be a great player

2011:
Adam Larsson: played immediately. some growing pains, but still projects to be a top pairing defenseman.

2010:
Erik Gudbranson: has become a top pairing defenseman already. very steady and will only get better

2009:
Victor Hedman: is the #1 defenseman on his team. growing pains early but has really started to come into his own.

2008:
Drew Doughty: one of the best defenseman in the league.
Alex Pietrangelo: one of the best defenseman in the league.
Luke Schenn: started out tremendously, had some growing pains, but has become a top 4 defenseman here and will still get better.

2007:
Thomas Hickey: most likely a bust.
Karl Alzner: probably not worthy of his draft status, but a good young defenseman nonetheless. can probably still get better.

so one probable bust in the top 5 since 2007. i don't think our ability to develop a defenseman really applies in the case of Seth Jones.


Last edited by orange is better: 03-27-2013 at 12:56 PM.
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Old
03-27-2013, 12:49 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
I have no idea, but from reading their board, I'd say that they want MacKinnon more than Drouin or Jones. Right now Huberdeau isn't even playing center, Shore is centering that line. It's Colorado, to me at least, that would take Jones if the order stayed what it was right now. Obviously that's just my speculation though.
That's how I would see it. Florida would want MacKinnon, Colorado would want Jones. Calgary likely wants MacKinnon.

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03-27-2013, 12:52 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Jones is talented enough to step right into a role next season. he may not reach his potential for a few seasons, but it's better than the 'fix a flat' system this team has utilized when it comes to defenseman and filling spots in general. i'd rather groom a highly touted kid from the get go in the NHL with the potential to be a franchise defenseman than neglect that need in the draft and trade for a guy who's development has halted (meyers) or fill the void with a stopgap with a big contract like Bouwmeester or Campbell. We need to end this mantra of filling our team with other teams unwanted material and expecting any significant success. if anything is to change, we need to start developing our own corner pieces. Jones would be the perfect start to that. I'm PERFECTLY willing to suck it up through the growing pains in order to finally have our own bonafide #1 defenseman that we didn't need to sacrifice the rest of the future and the prospect pool for.

honestly, i want jones badly. but if we can't get him, I'd be all about trading our #3ish pick for columbus' 1st and the rangers 1st. take a guy like Pulock, Nurse or Zadorov with the higher pick and then a guy like anthony mantha with the other.
I wouldn't be opposed to this at all. I know Druin and MacKinnon are elite talents but the need is so great on D that I think it's time to think a little outside the box.

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03-27-2013, 12:54 PM
  #936
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IF we get a top3, we will be happy either way, unless we go off the board...

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03-27-2013, 01:18 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
i fail to see any evidence that the flyers wouldn't be able to "develop" a defenseman who's projected to be the best player in the draft and will most definitely be on the opening night roster.

....so one probable bust in the top 5 since 2007. i don't think our ability to develop a defenseman really applies in the case of Seth Jones.
Should have clarified, didn't really mean developing Jones, more guys like pulock and Zadorov (don't know much about the two and not sure if they are NHL ready). But I'd like there to be evidence that we CAN develop defense, rather there be no evidence.

As you stated, since the flyers haven't really drafted many d-men in the first round its hard to criticize them, but I guess i'm just weary that if we get some high potential guys in the 2nd or 3rd round, I don't know how much confidence I'd have in the flyers farm system grooming them.

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03-27-2013, 01:44 PM
  #938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Florida has a definitive need at C. Especially a #1 C. i think they would certainly take Mackinnon. They have multiple young defenseman to build around and a potential elite winger in Huberdeau. (played some C in juniors but is a winger now). the team we'd have to worry about is Colorado. They most definitely would take Jones IMO. We'd have to finish #2 at best to have a shot at jones i think. if florida finishes last and wins the lottery that means we'd likely have Jones in our grasps.
Really? I thought Huberdeau was a Center and they had a couple other centers in the pipe and in the NHL righ tnow. Looking at their roster and prospects W looked like the biggest need to me. As long as they aren't taking Jones I'm cool.

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03-27-2013, 02:02 PM
  #939
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Should have clarified, didn't really mean developing Jones, more guys like pulock and Zadorov (don't know much about the two and not sure if they are NHL ready). But I'd like there to be evidence that we CAN develop defense, rather there be no evidence.
True story about Pitkanen:

The season before he was traded (yes, THAT season), he approached the coaching staff and requested that they not include him in the starting lineup for the next home game. Why? "Because they boo me." His exact words.

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03-27-2013, 03:55 PM
  #940
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True story about Pitkanen:

The season before he was traded (yes, THAT season), he approached the coaching staff and requested that they not include him in the starting lineup for the next home game. Why? "Because they boo me." His exact words.
His psyche was really fragile in Philadelphia. I've read things where he was really homesick and he was by himself here. Normally, most teenagers who come across the pond usually have their parents come over to help get acclimated. He didn't. As well, he had a real hard time fitting in and I think that's part of the reason why he ended up wanting out. I was surprised that none of the veterans took him under their wing and the practice from that season where Todd Fedoruk punched him in the face and no one came to Pitkanen's defense pretty much sealed his fate.

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03-27-2013, 05:02 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Really? I thought Huberdeau was a Center and they had a couple other centers in the pipe and in the NHL righ tnow. Looking at their roster and prospects W looked like the biggest need to me. As long as they aren't taking Jones I'm cool.
If Im not mistaken, he has been flipping between the two. It's how dynamic Hubs is that makes Mac the best player for them to take. A do it all 1st line center. While I think Drouin scores more points in the future, I think Mac has a better chance of a better overaround game.


Also good news for tonight. Colorado and Calgary are playing. No matter how much both suck one of the teams will get points. Best case scenario is probably Calgary. That pushes them a few points higher giving us a 1 win cushion to stay in 3rd overall.

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03-27-2013, 05:20 PM
  #942
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If Im not mistaken, he has been flipping between the two. It's how dynamic Hubs is that makes Mac the best player for them to take. A do it all 1st line center. While I think Drouin scores more points in the future, I think Mac has a better chance of a better overaround game.


Also good news for tonight. Colorado and Calgary are playing. No matter how much both suck one of the teams will get points. Best case scenario is probably Calgary. That pushes them a few points higher giving us a 1 win cushion to stay in 3rd overall.
Shoot out win for Colorado. If the Flyers lose to the Islanders Thursday, they might not win more than two games the rest of the season. That should be good enough for 2nd worst overall at least.

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03-27-2013, 05:43 PM
  #943
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Shoot out win for Colorado. If the Flyers lose to the Islanders Thursday, they might not win more than two games the rest of the season. That should be good enough for 2nd worst overall at least.
Yeah I could see that.

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03-27-2013, 10:06 PM
  #944
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Are there any good videos of Nurse? All I can seem to find on youtube is him fighting. I would like to see some that show off his skill more

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03-27-2013, 10:12 PM
  #945
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Are there any good videos of Nurse? All I can seem to find on youtube is him fighting. I would like to see some that show off his skill more
This one has mainly tough guy stuff too, but there is one beautiful goal there that shows off his skating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=nGt9avhxjaE

Right around the 1:00 mark

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03-27-2013, 10:19 PM
  #946
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His psyche was really fragile in Philadelphia. I've read things where he was really homesick and he was by himself here. Normally, most teenagers who come across the pond usually have their parents come over to help get acclimated. He didn't. As well, he had a real hard time fitting in and I think that's part of the reason why he ended up wanting out. I was surprised that none of the veterans took him under their wing and the practice from that season where Todd Fedoruk punched him in the face and no one came to Pitkanen's defense pretty much sealed his fate.
Why did Fedoruk punch him, and why did no one come to his defense? Was he not well liked by anyone?

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03-27-2013, 10:32 PM
  #947
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Why did Fedoruk punch him, and why did no one come to his defense? Was he not well liked by anyone?
i believehe kept goofing off during a drill and hit Fedoruk in his face with his stick or the puck. He was a goof that even his fellow countrymen couldn't tolerate.

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03-27-2013, 10:37 PM
  #948
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I see the Flyers messing this up and winning some games but that's OK I like them getting Nurse at 5 as much as Jones.

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03-27-2013, 10:41 PM
  #949
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i believehe kept goofing off during a drill and hit Fedoruk in his face with his stick or the puck. He was a goof that even his fellow countrymen couldn't tolerate.
Video....

Pitkanen in his first year was really promising. He was kind of nasty and mean and got under people's skin. His second year he became aloof and uninspired and it rubbed the Flyers and Fans the wrong way and of course Fedoruk ..hence his comment about Flyers lacking an identity which seems to be the case all over again. We have more than our fair share of aloof Pitkanens out there. Right now Coburn seems to be getting the Pitkanen treatment although nobody has punched him yet....few Flyers deserve to cast aspersions though...


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03-27-2013, 10:46 PM
  #950
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Video....

Pitkanen in his first year was really promising. He was kind of nasty and mean and got under people's skin. His second year he became aloof and uninspired and it rubbed the Flyers and Fans the wrong way and of course Fedoruk ..hence his comment about Flyers lacking an identity which seems to be the case all over again. We have more than our fair share of aloof Pitkanens out there. Right now Coburn seems to be getting the Pitkanen treatment although nobody has punched him yet....few Flyers deserve to cast aspersions though...
Really? I haven't heard that. If true, the difference is that Coburn can handle himself a lot better in a fight than Pitkanen.

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