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"Who" is not buying into "what"?

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Old
03-27-2013, 01:24 PM
  #26
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I've been out of the country for a while, not an excuse, but had limited time and access to watch the games. This thread and reading other Blues related articles makes me wonder...what the hell happened!?

Perron: He takes some really dumb penalties and he should have been disciplined by now. Tries to make up for it with his talented hands but ends up coming across as a puck-hog. For some reason he reminds me of Jim Campbell from back in the day. I like Perron and am still a big supporter for him. I can understand a bad stretch at the start of the season but the guy is making the same mistakes. From what little I did get to see I think he's been trying almost too hard at times to turn his own game around. Maybe his problem is he's too focused on himself and not the team. Idk.

As for the rest of the guys, idk. Something isn't clicking right with the guys, be it line changes or whatever. They are bought in and then they are out, the phrase consistently inconsistent comes to mind and it's quite baffling tbh. Maybe a trade is what really is needed, a change to our core to get the right fit for our team as a whole going forward.

Just some thoughts I've had while trying to catch back up with everything. The time is rapidly running out to get our game back on track as a team. And even if we do trade away one our core guys, bringing in a new guy may hurt our chances if they need to time to adjust to the system. Unless we get Malkin or something

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03-27-2013, 01:24 PM
  #27
Big Al 2
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It wasn't a regular off season, they had what a week of training camp? They missed a lot of valuable time to practice the system. Athletes are creatures of habit and none of these guys have gone through an off season like this one. Streaky play isn't really shocking to me

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03-27-2013, 01:26 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cudi View Post
We're currently in the playoff race and only 2 points from the 4th seed and a message needs to be sent?

Yeah. Okay....
I see what you're saying, but in fairness we're only 3 points ahead of 11th as well. That's just how tight the West is (again).

As I said in another thread, Petro, Perron, McDonald are the clear players who have been very disappointing to me. Now out of those, there's one in particular that would make the most sense to move given trade value and other things....I think everybody knows who.

The thing I hate about these discussions is you mention one player (this season it's been Perron, and really he kinda deserves the flack) and then the defenders jump on you as if you are blaming every single loss on him. That's not the case and I don't think anyone is doing that, but out of all the forwards Perron has become the most frustrating. I didn't think it was possible but he has surpassed Stewart and Berglund in the category, IMO. Perron used to be one of my favorite players but I just don't care for the guy much anymore. There are so many things about his game that make me wanna rip my hair out. Yes he is skilled, but he's maybe a 60-point player at best honestly. I don't think he's going to be a star and I think his antics with the puck end up costing us more than they help us. His penalties, flopping around, poor defensive game, not much speed, going offsides, hanging onto the puck too much/not utilizing his teammates as much as he should, etc., he just sticks out like a sore thumb as to who isn't buying in. He's a good player, but should be dangled when we have other needs to fill.

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03-27-2013, 01:32 PM
  #29
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I tend to think the "not buying in" is not necessarily any 1, 2, 3 specific players on any consistent basis. I think it's that there are different guys being impact players some games and not being there in other games. Hitchcock is definitely frustrated with this. Just as an example, we've seen Berglund play some games with incredible defensive tenacity and in the same game seen him look offensively dangerous. In those games it's some other forward not pulling his weight, having an off-game, whatever you want to call it. Later in a different game, Berglund might be invisible (like last night) while other players carry more of the load. Tarasenko was dangerous last night as he's been since coming back from injury, but prior to his injury he wasn't a 200-foot player. These are just examples. You can point to most guys having on and off nights. A few times in the past 10-12 games we've seen some complete games played by the team. I thought the game in Calgary the other night was a fairly complete game except for the goaltending.

But I think that's the issue most frustrating Hitchcock – game to game he isn't sure what he's gonna get and who's gonna show up. Even if the guys having off games rotate around, it signals to him that it hasn't sunk in with the team that to reach the goal of being the best and winning the Cup, it simply can't happen that way. I don't get the sense that there's any specific scapegoat on this team. Even in our forum where we debate these things there's very little consensus about which players, and that animates the question behind this thread. There's no obvious culprit. It's more of a team identity/mentality that every night every player brings an A effort. Hitch is understandably frustrated because last year there was so much A effort from the entire team that they could even carry a terrible Stewart and not miss a beat. This year Stewart has responded in a big way but even he is guilty of not showing up with the same effort every game. He had his big streaky burst recently and that's his playing profile regardless of his physical conditioning, but the point is there are fingers to point at nearly every player on the roster. That 6-1 start just gave these guys an overinflated sense of themselves. That 6-0 Wings drubbing was too easy, and it set a bad tone that they didn't have to constantly play on the razor's edge of one-goal games they had last year.

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03-27-2013, 01:36 PM
  #30
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I agree. Not buying in probably isn't as simple as certain player's styles because that would be an easy fix, it is more of a consistent effort night in and night out of the entire team.

The entire team still hasn't realized that they don't have enough skill to win on skill. They have to outwork every team in every zone. That is how we dominated last season and how we can be dangerous again.

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03-27-2013, 01:38 PM
  #31
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JR tweeted that we he will the team's definition and answer later on stltoday.com.

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03-27-2013, 01:42 PM
  #32
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We have three top lines that range from low-end first line to average second line. There are advantages and drawbacks to this. The advantage is depth and that when everyone's playing well, we create mismatches with that depth. Another advantage is those guys are supposedly 200-foot two-way players who can hang grittily with anyone. The drawback is that it means when the foot is taken off the grit pedal, even slightly, the whole advantage evens up or even tilts the other way. The team has seemed too comfortable in some ways – they bigger contracts to Oshie and Perron, the early-season easy winning ... because these guys are such good friends it's easy for a mood to spread fast among them.

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03-27-2013, 02:16 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Al 2 View Post
It wasn't a regular off season, they had what a week of training camp? They missed a lot of valuable time to practice the system. Athletes are creatures of habit and none of these guys have gone through an off season like this one. Streaky play isn't really shocking to me
Enough of the off-season excuse. The actual season is over halfway. Everyone should be caught up by now, and if they haven't and have been skipping optional practices then they need to be gone off the team because obviously their job isn't worth the effort.

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03-27-2013, 02:20 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cudi View Post
We're currently in the playoff race and only 2 points from the 4th seed and a message needs to be sent?

Yeah. Okay....
So status quo?

Why should we not make a trade? Do you think that if we trade one of them then we are going to fall apart? Or that we would get junk back? If we get junk back then that should tell you they weren't as important or as good as we thought.

You have to give to get. We have more dime-a-dozen players on this team than anything else.

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03-27-2013, 02:35 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Enough of the off-season excuse. The actual season is over halfway. Everyone should be caught up by now, and if they haven't and have been skipping optional practices then they need to be gone off the team because obviously their job isn't worth the effort.
Pushing too hard in practice will be counter-productive. Rest is equally important.

I totally agree about the off-season excuse though. We are over 30 games in and we've had a few breaks in play where they could have proper practice etc and we haven't seen anything more out of them after that.

Things need to change. Maybe it is as simple as a goalie getting hot and the team feels a little less pressure to produce offensively, or maybe we do need a trade...

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03-27-2013, 03:45 PM
  #36
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One more thing. I've heard about this core that people don't want to break up. This same core gave up on Andy Murray and Davis Payne, and now Hitch.

There's a common denominator here, and it isn't the coach.

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03-27-2013, 03:48 PM
  #37
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perron for stastny ?

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03-27-2013, 03:51 PM
  #38
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Here's JR's piece on what "buy-in" means.

Here's a revealing bit from Nichol. The first guy I thought of was Pietrangelo.

Quote:
It's human nature when things don't go very well, especially with professional athletes because they take it so personal, to want to do so much. You take it on yourself and that's where you get away from the team concept because you think you can just put the team on your back and do it yourself, but that's not the case. It's not because we don't care. Sometimes it's because we care too much and we try and do it ourselves rather than lean on our teammates to get us out of this tough time.
Hitchcock (also made me think of Pietrangelo)

Quote:
I think the bigger area for us is the turnovers in the critical ice. If we manage the game properly and do a better job of that and we have more activity at the net, we're doing a lot of good things. But we are not managing the puck in the proper areas and that's why we're giving up 2-on-1s and breakaways. We might give up (only) eight or nine scoring chances a game but they are doozies. You're not going to win games no matter if you give up five scoring chances if all of them are odd-man rushes, or breakaways or 2-on-1s.
Nothing else too significant in the answers. Lots of the same predictable words we're numb to hearing as fans already.

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03-27-2013, 03:52 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by rocketxav9 View Post
perron for stastny ?
God no. Wrong thread too. Give it up with this Stastny stuff. Your proposal the other day on the trade boards to get Stastny was awful.

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03-27-2013, 03:55 PM
  #40
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Nothing we didn't already know. Play as a 5 man unit and do the small things right.

So simple, but apparently it's pretty ****in complicated.

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03-27-2013, 03:57 PM
  #41
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Scott Cullen ‏@tsnscottcullen 4 min
The St. Louis Blues, accused of "not buying in" have outshot opponents 140-74 in the last four games. Just imagine if they were committed...

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03-27-2013, 04:04 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Scott Cullen ‏@tsnscottcullen 4 min
The St. Louis Blues, accused of "not buying in" have outshot opponents 140-74 in the last four games. Just imagine if they were committed...
Shot means nothing, especially when they're talking about team defense...

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03-27-2013, 04:26 PM
  #43
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I find it hilarious that so many on here point right at Perron and throw him under the bus when the 4th and 3rd (the line that Perron is on though he even said it wasn't a true "3rd" line) were just complimented by Hitchcock. You may also remember the Perron/Berglund/Stewart being a very effective line and getting praise. You may also notice that Perron is getting some of the most ice time of all forwards lately though he really needs to start finishing the chances he is getting.

So, Hitchcock praises the line he is on, keeps giving him quality minutes, and the line he has been on has been one of the Blues most effective lines much of the season.

Try thinking harder before pointing the finger.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hocke...ad28e4fd6.html

^
Here's the article. Read it for yourself. Yeah Perron is clearly the problem, but I guess some of you know more than the coach.

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03-27-2013, 04:35 PM
  #44
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Right. Because a coach doesn't put one of his best offensive players on the ice. You think he's going to call names out a week before the deadline?

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03-27-2013, 04:39 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
I find it hilarious that so many on here point right at Perron and throw him under the bus when the 4th and 3rd (the line that Perron is on though he even said it wasn't a true "3rd" line) were just complimented by Hitchcock. You may also remember the Perron/Berglund/Stewart being a very effective line and getting praise. You may also notice that Perron is getting some of the most ice time of all forwards lately though he really needs to start finishing the chances he is getting.

So, Hitchcock praises the line he is on, keeps giving him quality minutes, and the line he has been on has been one of the Blues most effective lines much of the season.

Try thinking harder before pointing the finger.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hocke...ad28e4fd6.html

^
Here's the article. Read it for yourself. Yeah Perron is clearly the problem, but I guess some of you know more than the coach.
A couple things:
1. fans are entitled to their opinion. We also pay for it. Therefore we can point the finger all we want. Remember, this is entertainment.
2. Why would he trash certain players in the media? If there will ever be a trade, you need to keep it as positive as possible.
3. It is not a constant issue w/ Perron or anyone else. It is 5 or 6 times a game. We give up doozies of scoring chances.

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03-27-2013, 04:45 PM
  #46
bleedblue1223
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Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
I find it hilarious that so many on here point right at Perron and throw him under the bus when the 4th and 3rd (the line that Perron is on though he even said it wasn't a true "3rd" line) were just complimented by Hitchcock. You may also remember the Perron/Berglund/Stewart being a very effective line and getting praise. You may also notice that Perron is getting some of the most ice time of all forwards lately though he really needs to start finishing the chances he is getting.

So, Hitchcock praises the line he is on, keeps giving him quality minutes, and the line he has been on has been one of the Blues most effective lines much of the season.

Try thinking harder before pointing the finger.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hocke...ad28e4fd6.html

^
Here's the article. Read it for yourself. Yeah Perron is clearly the problem, but I guess some of you know more than the coach.
We get it you love the guy.

Perron also does something of the things that Nichol and Hitch said of the players not buying in. Perron at times tries to do too much, and he is also a victim of turning the puck over and having it lead to odd-man rushes.

Perron isn't the only problem, he isn't even the biggest, that would be the hole we have on defense, but he isn't the perfect player out there.

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03-27-2013, 05:02 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
We get it you love the guy.

Perron also does something of the things that Nichol and Hitch said of the players not buying in. Perron at times tries to do too much, and he is also a victim of turning the puck over and having it lead to odd-man rushes.

Perron isn't the only problem, he isn't even the biggest, that would be the hole we have on defense, but he isn't the perfect player out there.
It isn't about playing favorites, it is about defending a player who gets a lot of unwarranted criticism from a group of fans who a lot of times don't know what they are talking about.

Backes called someone out. People decided it must be Perron because they don't like the way he plays. Then later they re-write history and state Backes calling out Perron as a fact and is evidence that Perron is selfish. I mean, you guys have a right to circular reasoning and misquoting others to draw erroneous conclusions, but I am just trying to stop some of you from looking foolish.

It is funny that the venom against Perron has reached the level that any mistake he makes is put under the microscope at this point. The fans did the same things to Turgeon and Demitra before. I guess if Perron fought or laid out huge hits or played "gritty" he would get a free pass.

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03-27-2013, 05:03 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
It isn't about playing favorites, it is about defending a player who gets a lot of unwarranted criticism from a group of fans who a lot of times don't know what they are talking about.

Backes called someone out. People decided it must be Perron because they don't like the way he plays. Then later they re-write history and state Backes calling out Perron as a fact and is evidence that Perron is selfish. I mean, you guys have a right to circular reasoning and misquoting others to draw erroneous conclusions, but I am just trying to stop some of you from looking foolish.

It is funny that the venom against Perron has reached the level that any mistake he makes is put under the microscope at this point. The fans did the same things to Turgeon and Demitra before. I guess if Perron fought or laid out huge hits or played "gritty" he would get a free pass.
Has a point.

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03-27-2013, 05:06 PM
  #49
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I think this is true; they're not committed to a five man game that starts in their own end, which creates better transition. This is the support we're not seeing this year, which allowed them to control the center of the ice in all zones.

The fast start they had this year fooled this team believing that skill was enough and they started cheating, except that created huge holes in their defense. Now the question is why they canít figure this out, the simple answer is they need true veteran leadership.

This team lacks an Arnott type leader.

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03-27-2013, 05:09 PM
  #50
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I don't pick on Perron because of quotes that weren't made or a bias against him...I just want holes filled and a winning team. If Perron is the one to leave in the process, so be it.

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