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Old
03-27-2013, 05:11 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
I don't pick on Perron because of quotes that weren't made or a bias against him...I just want holes filled and a winning team. If Perron is the one to leave in the process, so be it.
Here, here!

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03-27-2013, 05:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
It isn't about playing favorites, it is about defending a player who gets a lot of unwarranted criticism from a group of fans who a lot of times don't know what they are talking about.

Backes called someone out. People decided it must be Perron because they don't like the way he plays. Then later they re-write history and state Backes calling out Perron as a fact and is evidence that Perron is selfish. I mean, you guys have a right to circular reasoning and misquoting others to draw erroneous conclusions, but I am just trying to stop some of you from looking foolish.

It is funny that the venom against Perron has reached the level that any mistake he makes is put under the microscope at this point. The fans did the same things to Turgeon and Demitra before. I guess if Perron fought or laid out huge hits or played "gritty" he would get a free pass.
Exactly. You could argue Perron is having a better season than Backes and I would think he is.. but no one is allowed to bash Backes. The Perron hate on this board is ridiculous, especially for how talented he is.

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03-27-2013, 05:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Cudi View Post
Exactly. You could argue Perron is having a better season than Backes and I would think he is.. but no one is allowed to bash Backes. The Perron hate on this board is ridiculous, especially for how talented he is.
QoC? Roster strength at wing versus center? Nope...That couldn't be it.

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03-27-2013, 05:17 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
It isn't about playing favorites, it is about defending a player who gets a lot of unwarranted criticism from a group of fans who a lot of times don't know what they are talking about.

Backes called someone out. People decided it must be Perron because they don't like the way he plays. Then later they re-write history and state Backes calling out Perron as a fact and is evidence that Perron is selfish. I mean, you guys have a right to circular reasoning and misquoting others to draw erroneous conclusions, but I am just trying to stop some of you from looking foolish.

It is funny that the venom against Perron has reached the level that any mistake he makes is put under the microscope at this point. The fans did the same things to Turgeon and Demitra before. I guess if Perron fought or laid out huge hits or played "gritty" he would get a free pass.
I'm partly with you. Perron gets way too much of the wrath from the fans. Some of it is deserved, some of it isn't.

Right now, just about every player should be getting the "Perron" treatment from the fans. There are a couple players that don't really deserve it, but of the big names, I don't think any of them are playing to their full ability.

Ironically, Turgeon and Demitra are 2 of my favorite Blues all-time. When Perron is on he is great. I hate when people get upset at him for being selfish because you need to have your skilled guys be selfish at times. We need Perron to shoot more. He needs to be selfish with a purpose and go to the net, same with Berglund, same with Tarasenko, same with Stewart.

He doesn't really have an excuse on the penalties. It is a joke that he is leading the team in minor penalties. It also drives me up a wall when Backes takes dumb penalties.

In regards to trades on this site, at least for me I bring Perron up because I think he has the most value of a player that can be traded IMO. Schwartz looks like he can play a top 6 role in the near future, we have Steen, and Jaskin has been a left winger this season.

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03-27-2013, 05:17 PM
  #55
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I wouldn’t say everyone here that has something negative to say about Perron is bias, but I would like to add that he doesn't seem like he wants to be part of this type of system.

He looks like he would be a good fit on The Oilers, which isn’t a compliment.

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03-27-2013, 05:58 PM
  #56
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I think we can all agree that other then Sobotka, Shattenkirk, Jackman, and the rookies everyone else on our roster has more to give.

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03-27-2013, 06:05 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BadgersandBlues View Post
I think we can all agree that other then Sobotka, Shattenkirk, Jackman, and the rookies everyone else on our roster has more to give.
Shattenkirk has more to give as well.
Too often he gets a bit lazy and depends upon his partner to bail him out. This was less evident with Jackman since he tends to play quite positionally sound and, while noone would ever mistake him for Mike Gartner, he does have enough footspeed to make up for some of the mistakes.

Now, with Redden or Cole playing alongside, that laziness tends to be more noticeable. Redden is too slow and makes puzzling decisions, Cole is inexperienced and is in the wrong position too often.

The advantage is Shattenkirk is young and seems to be willing to dedicate himself to improvement. When/if his defense comes around he should be worthy of that #2 defenseman title we keep laying on him this year.

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03-27-2013, 06:07 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by bluesman11 View Post
I wouldn’t say everyone here that has something negative to say about Perron is bias, but I would like to add that he doesn't seem like he wants to be part of this type of system.

He looks like he would be a good fit on The Oilers, which isn’t a compliment.
Which is why after playing half a season in the system, he went and signed a long-term contract and seemed genuinely excited about staying in St. Louis. I bet he didn't bet on becoming the whipping boy of a fickle fanbase.

On the penalty thing, he really needs to stop going to the box, and it sounds like the team staged an intervention for him on this front. He didn't take any penalties this time against the Oilers so we will see if he learned anything. Next time he takes a stupid penalty, he should get some bench time.

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03-27-2013, 06:10 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BadgersandBlues View Post
I think we can all agree that other then Sobotka, Shattenkirk, Jackman, and the rookies everyone else on our roster has more to give.
Hey, Nichol has been spectacular too.

I'd put Steen and Stewart in that group or at least close to it as well.

At least players like Russell are getting back to where they were.

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03-27-2013, 06:16 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Multimoodia View Post
Shattenkirk has more to give as well.
Too often he gets a bit lazy and depends upon his partner to bail him out. This was less evident with Jackman since he tends to play quite positionally sound and, while noone would ever mistake him for Mike Gartner, he does have enough footspeed to make up for some of the mistakes.

Now, with Redden or Cole playing alongside, that laziness tends to be more noticeable. Redden is too slow and makes puzzling decisions, Cole is inexperienced and is in the wrong position too often.

The advantage is Shattenkirk is young and seems to be willing to dedicate himself to improvement. When/if his defense comes around he should be worthy of that #2 defenseman title we keep laying on him this year.
I disagree with that analysis. He has become more cognizant of the D-zone with players like Redden and Cole, and it has affected his offensive in a detrimental fashion. Unlike AP, he does what is necessary to play good D first, and doesn't leave his partner out to dry by making stupid, poorly-timed step ups in the neutral zone.

If you put Jacks back with Shattenkirk, I think you would see the same quality of D we've seen from Shatty all year, but you would also see a much higher quality of offense from him as well.

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03-27-2013, 06:17 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by bluesman11 View Post
I wouldn’t say everyone here that has something negative to say about Perron is bias, but I would like to add that he doesn't seem like he wants to be part of this type of system.
I think that is wrong.
He is an offensive player and they tend to expend more of their energy in that particular zone.

The fact that Perron is perfectly willing to circle back high when he sees one of his fellow forwards go deep (thus putting him out of dangerous scoring range) do cross-ice dump-ins, etc. indicate he is willing to be part of the team. Where Perron has the most trouble is when he thinks he can get through something he cannot and when he is out-waited by a defense.

Put Perron and someone who can get open and score on the ice at the same time with a scrambling, panicking defense and he rewards far more times than not. More so than any other player on the Blues to be quite honest. McDonald did have that role, but this year has not been good to him.
Put Perron on the ice with a calm defense and forwards who are stuck in mud and he tends to overhandle the puck trying to find the perfect play. This also tends to happen with a defense that stands up at the line well and takes away lanes. This is why Perron and Backes seem to often work at cross-purposes and make lousy line-mates. Backes only causes chaos when he is out banging on defensemen which puts him low and causes Perron to play high protecting the position Backes vacated.



As said previously, if the Blues have to spend Perron to get a real quality upgrade then I am all for it. The issue is that most people want to spin him off for far less than what a real upgrade would be. The Blues cannot waste resources; they do not have the financial ability to withstand stupid decisions made because a player does not hit and fight enough.

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03-27-2013, 06:21 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BadgersandBlues View Post
I disagree with that analysis. He has become more cognizant of the D-zone with players like Redden and Cole, and it has affected his offensive in a detrimental fashion. Unlike AP, he does what is necessary to play good D first, and doesn't leave his partner out to dry by making stupid, poorly-timed step ups in the neutral zone.

If you put Jacks back with Shattenkirk, I think you would see the same quality of D we've seen from Shatty all year, but you would also see a much higher quality of offense from him as well.
He has improved markedly, of that I think anyone watching him will agree. Indeed, as you note playing with Cole and Redden has undoubtedly made him more aware of what an ill-timed jump in to the play can do.
But there is more there and it is up to Shattenkirk to get it, the kid has a lot of talent...possibly more than he realizes.

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03-27-2013, 06:25 PM
  #63
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I'll say this about Perron, he is a good enough fit when he is producing. It's not that he is a horrible fit, he is just one of the most inconsistent players in the league. He gets his points in short bunches, and then goes on streaks of nothingness. The only exception was last season.

I personally don't think he will be anything more than a 50-60 point player, especially with us. I think he will always be closer to 50 points with us.

When people say Stewart is streaky I always laugh because of how streaky Perron is. When will his skill and potential become consistent?

This season in particular he had the Dallas game, but besides that and maybe a couple others, the entire Perron-Backes-Oshie line didn't do much offensively. He had those few games with Berglund and Stewart, but that ended as well. That might be because Stewart went to the top line, but Perron couldn't sustain that success with Berglund, and that's on both of them.

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03-27-2013, 06:29 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
Which is why after playing half a season in the system, he went and signed a long-term contract and seemed genuinely excited about staying in St. Louis. I bet he didn't bet on becoming the whipping boy of a fickle fanbase.

On the penalty thing, he really needs to stop going to the box, and it sounds like the team staged an intervention for him on this front. He didn't take any penalties this time against the Oilers so we will see if he learned anything. Next time he takes a stupid penalty, he should get some bench time.
This is an emotional response.

So I'll also point out that what I said wasn't a slam on his talent. Also your point means nothing to me, because it could also be said, it was just good business because he did miss a whole year and was a RFA.

One more thing I would like to add, I think more like a GM so every piece of the puzzle is just that a piece to the puzzle. They're all available if the deal makes the team better, I would never have an agenda against anyone player. Which I would like to add, I always have and always will route for the name on the front of the jersey and almost never route for the name on their back.

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03-27-2013, 06:36 PM
  #65
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So do Oshie and Berglund get a pass?

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03-27-2013, 06:37 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I'll say this about Perron, he is a good enough fit when he is producing. It's not that he is a horrible fit, he is just one of the most inconsistent players in the league. He gets his points in short bunches, and then goes on streaks of nothingness. The only exception was last season.
Ordinarily I would agree with you, however with the entire team in a funk on and off this season...not sure what to make of it.
I can say if Perron cannot produce with Tarasenko I have more serious concerns.

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I personally don't think he will be anything more than a 50-60 point player, especially with us.
Truthfully I have a hard time imagining any Blues player scoring more than 65 with any consistency. As I have said, the way the Blues play in the offensive zone is going to eliminate a lot of rebound goals and such because they do stick a forward up high to keep unscheduled breakouts to a minimum. Additionally Hitch's method of playing each of the top 3 lines within a few minutes of one another means no one line is going to get enough ice time to be truly dominant.
And the powerplay is too inept too often.


Quote:
This season in particular he had the Dallas game, but besides that and maybe a couple others, the entire Perron-Backes-Oshie line didn't do much offensively.
And will not, as I noted earlier Backes and Perron are never going to be choice line-mates.
Quote:
He had those few games with Berglund and Stewart, but that ended as well. That might be because Stewart went to the top line, but Perron couldn't sustain that success with Berglund, and that's on both of them.
Agreed, that line should have been better and a lot of that I put on Perron. He needs to learn to adapt to his linemates better and faster. Berglund is never going to be a player who hunts for open ice, therefore Perron needs to create the necessary space to allow Berglund to power move to the net, or to set up for the cross-ice pass.
Instead Perron circles back to low and hopes Berglund will this time come toward the net in a quiet area and gives up the puck a few moments later.

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03-27-2013, 06:42 PM
  #67
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I wonder how much of the inconsistent play from our RFA's(Petro, Shattenkirk, Stewart, Berglund) has to do with playing for their next contract. With ALL of the talk about Petro being a top 5 dman in the league this past offseason, he had to see a huge payday forthcoming, and I'm curious if that's why he's been pressing all year? Petro sees the money Shea Weber and Erik Karlsson got, maybe he's thinking he's got to prove just a little bit more, then he'll get that huge payday. And by playing outside himself, he's regressed. I'm not saying it's the only reason for his poor play, but it could be a big factor. He could be signed anywhere from 5yrs-30 mil to 8 years-64mil. That huge difference, it could be why he is trying to do too much.

I do think it's a legitimate concern with Stewart too. Does he have to be constantly playing for a contract to play up to his potential? I don't know, but the thought concerns me. Is he a 20 g forward worth 3m per or is he a 35g forward worth 5m per?

Berglund is what he is at this point a 20-20 guy with 55-60 point ceiling. So hopefully Army goes 4yrs-15mil for him.

Shattenkirk is pretty darn consistent at this point in his young career. He is an elite PP QB with 50 pt potential and his value should be in the 5yr-22.5 mil range.

Just thought the pending contract issues may be part of the reason why there is some noticeable "selfishness" and less "buy-in" as a whole?

What does HF Blues talk think?

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03-27-2013, 06:45 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Multimoodia View Post
I think that is wrong.
He is an offensive player and they tend to expend more of their energy in that particular zone.

The fact that Perron is perfectly willing to circle back high when he sees one of his fellow forwards go deep (thus putting him out of dangerous scoring range) do cross-ice dump-ins, etc. indicate he is willing to be part of the team. Where Perron has the most trouble is when he thinks he can get through something he cannot and when he is out-waited by a defense.

Put Perron and someone who can get open and score on the ice at the same time with a scrambling, panicking defense and he rewards far more times than not. More so than any other player on the Blues to be quite honest. McDonald did have that role, but this year has not been good to him.
Put Perron on the ice with a calm defense and forwards who are stuck in mud and he tends to overhandle the puck trying to find the perfect play. This also tends to happen with a defense that stands up at the line well and takes away lanes. This is why Perron and Backes seem to often work at cross-purposes and make lousy line-mates. Backes only causes chaos when he is out banging on defensemen which puts him low and causes Perron to play high protecting the position Backes vacated.



As said previously, if the Blues have to spend Perron to get a real quality upgrade then I am all for it. The issue is that most people want to spin him off for far less than what a real upgrade would be. The Blues cannot waste resources; they do not have the financial ability to withstand stupid decisions made because a player does not hit and fight enough.
This reads like were on the same page.

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03-27-2013, 06:50 PM
  #69
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So do Oshie and Berglund get a pass?
No, Oshie has made some critical mistakes this year, but he does make some great plays. He needs more consistency. Production wise, he is right where he should be though. He's a 55 point 2-way winger, and he's producing like one.

Berglund is playing a good 2-way game, and his point production will always drive fans up a wall, but I think this is who he is. A 50 point 2-way center.

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03-27-2013, 06:56 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by bluesman11 View Post
This reads like were on the same page.
My point was simply that I do not think he does not want to be part of the system. He seems very willing to make sacrifices to playing defense and indeed many of them are now becoming second nature.

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03-27-2013, 07:05 PM
  #71
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I wonder how much of the inconsistent play from our RFA's(Petro, Shattenkirk, Stewart, Berglund) has to do with playing for their next contract. With ALL of the talk about Petro being a top 5 dman in the league this past offseason, he had to see a huge payday forthcoming, and I'm curious if that's why he's been pressing all year? Petro sees the money Shea Weber and Erik Karlsson got, maybe he's thinking he's got to prove just a little bit more, then he'll get that huge payday. And by playing outside himself, he's regressed. I'm not saying it's the only reason for his poor play, but it could be a big factor. He could be signed anywhere from 5yrs-30 mil to 8 years-64mil. That huge difference, it could be why he is trying to do too much.

I do think it's a legitimate concern with Stewart too. Does he have to be constantly playing for a contract to play up to his potential? I don't know, but the thought concerns me. Is he a 20 g forward worth 3m per or is he a 35g forward worth 5m per?

Berglund is what he is at this point a 20-20 guy with 55-60 point ceiling. So hopefully Army goes 4yrs-15mil for him.

Shattenkirk is pretty darn consistent at this point in his young career. He is an elite PP QB with 50 pt potential and his value should be in the 5yr-22.5 mil range.

Just thought the pending contract issues may be part of the reason why there is some noticeable "selfishness" and less "buy-in" as a whole?

What does HF Blues talk think?
Pietrangelo has one of the best hockey agents out there, he knew what kind of deal he could expect coming into this season. The reality is that there isn't a lot he could do this season that moves it significantly in one direction or the other. He'll get whatever term he wants and he was never going to get close to $8m unless he wanted to go down the offersheet road, and I'm sure that'll still be there for him in the summer anyway.

His situation is simply down to him trying to become a better player. You learn by mistakes and you won't become the best player possible unless you make them. He is trying to develop his offensive game and it is hurting us sometimes. It is frustrating to watch, but it isn't helped by the fact he doesn't have a great partner to be paired with for it.

Chris Stewart was in a contract year last season as well. Not sure why suddenly that becomes a valid argument now...

Overall, I don't really think the contract status is really a factor in all this. Berglund, Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo were never going to get much more or less offered to them on the basis of 1 shortened season. I expect they are largely aware of that. Stewart is the only one with a lot to gain or lose this season really.

I am disappointed that deals haven't already been done though. Armstrong comes out and says he is looking to deal picks/prospects for players signed to deals beyond this season, then surely it would help to have a firmer grasp on how much we'll have available going forward?

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03-27-2013, 07:57 PM
  #72
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I tend to think the "not buying in" is not necessarily any 1, 2, 3 specific players on any consistent basis. I think it's that there are different guys being impact players some games and not being there in other games. Hitchcock is definitely frustrated with this. Just as an example, we've seen Berglund play some games with incredible defensive tenacity and in the same game seen him look offensively dangerous. In those games it's some other forward not pulling his weight, having an off-game, whatever you want to call it. Later in a different game, Berglund might be invisible (like last night) while other players carry more of the load. Tarasenko was dangerous last night as he's been since coming back from injury, but prior to his injury he wasn't a 200-foot player. These are just examples. You can point to most guys having on and off nights. A few times in the past 10-12 games we've seen some complete games played by the team. I thought the game in Calgary the other night was a fairly complete game except for the goaltending.

But I think that's the issue most frustrating Hitchcock – game to game he isn't sure what he's gonna get and who's gonna show up. Even if the guys having off games rotate around, it signals to him that it hasn't sunk in with the team that to reach the goal of being the best and winning the Cup, it simply can't happen that way. I don't get the sense that there's any specific scapegoat on this team. Even in our forum where we debate these things there's very little consensus about which players, and that animates the question behind this thread. There's no obvious culprit. It's more of a team identity/mentality that every night every player brings an A effort. Hitch is understandably frustrated because last year there was so much A effort from the entire team that they could even carry a terrible Stewart and not miss a beat. This year Stewart has responded in a big way but even he is guilty of not showing up with the same effort every game. He had his big streaky burst recently and that's his playing profile regardless of his physical conditioning, but the point is there are fingers to point at nearly every player on the roster. That 6-1 start just gave these guys an overinflated sense of themselves. That 6-0 Wings drubbing was too easy, and it set a bad tone that they didn't have to constantly play on the razor's edge of one-goal games they had last year.
Well said. I agree that it is more an issue of "not every player player showing up every night," than an issue of the same players sometimes not showing up.

If it was only one or two guys, we would have seen them as a healthy scratch by now.

And it's not just a night to might issue

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03-27-2013, 11:45 PM
  #73
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Pietrangelo has one of the best hockey agents out there, he knew what kind of deal he could expect coming into this season. The reality is that there isn't a lot he could do this season that moves it significantly in one direction or the other. He'll get whatever term he wants and he was never going to get close to $8m unless he wanted to go down the offersheet road, and I'm sure that'll still be there for him in the summer anyway.

His situation is simply down to him trying to become a better player. You learn by mistakes and you won't become the best player possible unless you make them. He is trying to develop his offensive game and it is hurting us sometimes. It is frustrating to watch, but it isn't helped by the fact he doesn't have a great partner to be paired with for it.

Chris Stewart was in a contract year last season as well. Not sure why suddenly that becomes a valid argument now...

Overall, I don't really think the contract status is really a factor in all this. Berglund, Shattenkirk and Pietrangelo were never going to get much more or less offered to them on the basis of 1 shortened season. I expect they are largely aware of that. Stewart is the only one with a lot to gain or lose this season really.

I am disappointed that deals haven't already been done though. Armstrong comes out and says he is looking to deal picks/prospects for players signed to deals beyond this season, then surely it would help to have a firmer grasp on how much we'll have available going forward?
This is one of the best post I've ever read on any forum, well said.

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03-28-2013, 01:20 AM
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Bluesman91
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Chris Stewart is playing well because Chris Stewart loves challenging himself. He not only wants to push himself as a player but as a person as well. I think Stewart could make a great captain someday. I never understood the whole "Stewart's celebration was selfish" because that is his celebrations, he always does the kneel touch the ice and fist pump celebration and you can't really do that with teammates, it's his signature celly is all. But if you catch parts of line changes and before commercial breaks Stewy is always having fun with other teammates.

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03-28-2013, 03:54 AM
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Buying in? That's funny. 16 games left before the playoffs start. If it isn't happening now it won't happen in the remaining 16. And you can't keep firing coaches. The elements for a major trade are in place is all I have to say about that.

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