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Old
03-27-2013, 06:34 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
If you need the team around you to play a certain way to play decent, you are not an elite goalie. Or even a top 15 goalie.

Not good enough
Within reason, this is correct.

You shouldn't need to have a D permanently attached to the goal crease to be good. It helps, but it shouldn't be a 60 min necessity.

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03-27-2013, 08:40 PM
  #577
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I totally disagree. Bryz is the problem. Unlike other sports the Goaltender in hockey is the most important player on the ice. The team and the game begin with the goalie and works its way out. A great team can't win with a bad goalie but a great goalie can win championships for a mediocre team (i.e. Devils).

The goaltender needs to make the stops no matter and at all costs. The norm is for teams to give up around 2 goals a game and score three to win. That's why most teams that are competitive have a GAA around 2.

You feel sorry for him and feel he truly wants to win. Aw, thats nice. This guy make almost 6 million dollars a year to play a game. More than we all will make in a lifetime for one years work. His job is to stop the puck no matter what. Giving up 1 unearned goal a game is unacceptable let alone multiples. Players in this league are the best in the world. Stopping puck is difficult against the best. The great goalies do.

So cry me a river for him but the fact is he isn't cutting it and the team, which is loaded with talent is lost and demoralized by his lack of performance. He is the most important player on the team and is failing the team. The players are hesitant and nervous and no one seem to know what to do to get on the right track. But they all truly and deep down inside know what it's going to take and it isn't Bryz.

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03-28-2013, 03:31 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I don't think it is pathetic that teams have better coaches than us. There could be a large number of great goalie coaches. Maybe Sean Burke will leave Phoenix and we can get him
Nope sorry. He just recently signed a multi-year extension with Phoenix/Seattle/Quebec last summer.

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03-28-2013, 08:40 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by gto64dr View Post
I totally disagree. Bryz is the problem. Unlike other sports the Goaltender in hockey is the most important player on the ice. The team and the game begin with the goalie and works its way out. A great team can't win with a bad goalie but a great goalie can win championships for a mediocre team (i.e. Devils).

The goaltender needs to make the stops no matter and at all costs. The norm is for teams to give up around 2 goals a game and score three to win. That's why most teams that are competitive have a GAA around 2.

You feel sorry for him and feel he truly wants to win. Aw, thats nice. This guy make almost 6 million dollars a year to play a game. More than we all will make in a lifetime for one years work. His job is to stop the puck no matter what. Giving up 1 unearned goal a game is unacceptable let alone multiples. Players in this league are the best in the world. Stopping puck is difficult against the best. The great goalies do.

So cry me a river for him but the fact is he isn't cutting it and the team, which is loaded with talent is lost and demoralized by his lack of performance. He is the most important player on the team and is failing the team. The players are hesitant and nervous and no one seem to know what to do to get on the right track. But they all truly and deep down inside know what it's going to take and it isn't Bryz.
This team is not loaded with talent and they play terribly. Bryz is not living up to his contract, but this idea you have that all the team's issues stem from him is pure fantasy. Not being able to clear the puck from their own end and pass it thru the neutral zone is independent of the goalie.

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03-28-2013, 09:07 AM
  #580
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Originally Posted by gto64dr View Post
I totally disagree. Bryz is the problem. Unlike other sports the Goaltender in hockey is the most important player on the ice. The team and the game begin with the goalie and works its way out. A great team can't win with a bad goalie but a great goalie can win championships for a mediocre team (i.e. Devils).

The goaltender needs to make the stops no matter and at all costs. The norm is for teams to give up around 2 goals a game and score three to win. That's why most teams that are competitive have a GAA around 2.

You feel sorry for him and feel he truly wants to win. Aw, thats nice. This guy make almost 6 million dollars a year to play a game. More than we all will make in a lifetime for one years work. His job is to stop the puck no matter what. Giving up 1 unearned goal a game is unacceptable let alone multiples. Players in this league are the best in the world. Stopping puck is difficult against the best. The great goalies do.

So cry me a river for him but the fact is he isn't cutting it and the team, which is loaded with talent is lost and demoralized by his lack of performance. He is the most important player on the team and is failing the team. The players are hesitant and nervous and no one seem to know what to do to get on the right track. But they all truly and deep down inside know what it's going to take and it isn't Bryz.
No offense, but I didn't win one cogent point in this post. You have some sort of personal vendetta against him. The argument about the fact that he makes money to play a game is a stupid one.

To call the Devils a mediocre team the years they won the cup is beyond ridiculous. They had two hall of fame defensemen and a great coach, not to mention a solid team defensive strategy. Come on, man. Great teams have won with mediocre goaltending. Did you even watch the Flyers-Hawks series? The Flyers made it with Boucher and Leighton! Leighton had 3 shutouts against the Habs for God's sake!

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03-28-2013, 09:22 AM
  #581
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The Devils won their championships with arguably the best goalie to ever play the game. They were not loaded with offensive talent and relied on Brodeur, who also acts like a 3rd defenseman. We did make it to the finals with Boosh and Leighton and if you read my previous posts I believe we should relieve Bryz and stick them both back in. That tandom may not be elite but combined they were very good. Did the Devils have all star defense, yes, was Brodeur part of the reason they were so good? Is Bryz part of the reason that a decent, note I said decent, group of defensemen look so inept.

One of the other issues you have not considered with Bryz is that he is one of the worst goalies at handling the puck. He is also terrible on breakaways and odd man rushes and the defense knows this, one of the reasons we get so many minor penalties, This puts the added burden on the defense to handle his miscues, block shots, carry the puck out of the zone and pull down any player that appears to be going in alone. If you look at all the negatives of playing Bryz you can see that I do indeed think he is one terrible goaltender.

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03-28-2013, 09:24 AM
  #582
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That's fine, but the team's problems run much deeper than that. Look at the game Leighton played in Tampa or any of Boucher's minutes.

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03-28-2013, 09:37 AM
  #583
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So you give Boosh and Leighton a start every couple of months and they should come in looking like superstars? Seriously? Bryz has had more than enough starts over the past two seasons to prove his worth and has failed miserably. Time to yank him, we have nothing to lose at this point.

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03-28-2013, 09:37 AM
  #584
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I have no idea why anyone would ever want to plug Boucher and Leighton, or guys similar to them, back in to the lineup and think it would work again. The Flyers have literally been doing that since Hextall v.1 and it has NOT worked.

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03-28-2013, 09:37 AM
  #585
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Originally Posted by gto64dr View Post
So you give Boosh and Leighton a start every couple of months and they should come in looking like superstars? Seriously? Bryz has had more than enough starts over the past two seasons to prove his worth and has failed miserably. Time to yank him, we have nothing to lose at this point.
There's a difference between looking like a superstar and getting torched for 6 goals.

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03-28-2013, 09:49 AM
  #586
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Yea, like getting torched constantly doesn't happen when Bryz is in net. Look, we all know getting rid of Bob was a Huge mistake. I give Holmgren and Snider credit for trying to address one of our biggest issue for two decades. They went out and tried to ge a starter. But for whatever reason Bryz has not panned out and looks downright incompetent. We are out of options at this point. Bryz cannot get the job done and likely Boosh and/or Leighton haven't played enough NHL minutes lately to really change the outcome for this year. But Bryz needs to go and now. Get rid of him as soon as possible and hopefully develop some of our own talent. It may take some time but it will never happen with Bryz. Blowing up the team is not the answer. I truly believe we have a decent core of young guys and some decent defensemen. We may need a few different veterans next season but that's all. What we truly need is a Broduer or Lundqvist kind of guy and there aren't any available. We need a young talent and some patience.

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03-28-2013, 09:51 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by gto64dr View Post
Yea, like getting torched constantly doesn't happen when Bryz is in net. Look, we all know getting rid of Bob was a Huge mistake. I give Holmgren and Snider credit for trying to address one of our biggest issue for two decades. They went out and tried to ge a starter. But for whatever reason Bryz has not panned out and looks downright incompetent. We are out of options at this point. Bryz cannot get the job done and likely Boosh and/or Leighton haven't played enough NHL minutes lately to really change the outcome for this year. But Bryz needs to go and now. Get rid of him as soon as possible and hopefully develop some of our own talent. It may take some time but it will never happen with Bryz. Blowing up the team is not the answer. I truly believe we have a decent core of young guys and some decent defensemen. We may need a few different veterans next season but that's all. What we truly need is a Broduer or Lundqvist kind of guy and there aren't any available. We need a young talent and some patience.
I agree on the core but why not keep Bryz until we actually have a plan? He can be bought out next year with the amnesty as well. Say the Flyers get that #1 guy this year, or draft Jones/Nurse and they step in and become effective? I'm not saying don't buy him out. I'm saying don't buy him out without a backup plan, and I don't mean a plan to make your backups your starters.

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03-28-2013, 10:57 AM
  #588
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
There is no singular problem. Bryz hasn't lived up to his expectations. The only people on this team who have IMO are Voracek (who has honestly exceeded them this year,) Simmonds for his heart and constant hard play, and maybe Giroux because he's still almost producing at a PPG (even though ES play is weak.)

This is a team full of disappointments.
Giroux has been weak ES but the whole team has. The Flyers are near the bottom of the league in ES goals.

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03-28-2013, 10:59 AM
  #589
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Honestly, I'd rather suck royally at PP if it meant we scored a ton of ES goals. But I'm sure that's a "no, duh" kind of thing.

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03-28-2013, 11:02 AM
  #590
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To me it is pretty obvious that the biggest reason is the lack of pmd to get out of our zone and though the neutral zone

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03-28-2013, 11:59 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Within reason, this is correct.

You shouldn't need to have a D permanently attached to the goal crease to be good. It helps, but it shouldn't be a 60 min necessity.
Yes and no. I believe that the excellent goaltender / excellent defense balance is necessary for long-term success. Of course, you get the standing-on-his-head goaltender emerging from time to time, but this is more the exception, and very few goaltenders can do this consistently over their careers.

Brodeur was mentioned further on as an example; he's definitely an HoF goalie, but look at the system around him. He largely has the luxury of reducing his concentration to the shooter and stopping that first shot. Please note the word "largely"; I know you can show me a dozen YouTube videos contrary to this, but I'm trying to give a broader scope. Few things are worse for a goaltender (in my limited experience) than trying to be ready for a shot and a pass at the same time, and to feel the need to not just stop shots but to corral them all the time. The Devils have historically done an excellent job of reducing the shot quality (keeping shooters outside), clogging up passing lanes, closely checking (interfering with ) teammates near the net, and clearing rebounds.

A defense doesn't have to block every shot, but they can minimize passing that improves the shot quality and can grab the puck after the first save. At least one D should be within a stick length of the goal crease when defending in their zone, and the forwards should be aware of their positioning and where the opposition players are. I don't see the latter with the current Flyers "system". I'd wager that any goaltender playing for the Flyers has his efficiency reduced – this is, of course, relative to his efficiency in and of itself – by regularly trying to defend against the shooter and his teammate standing unguarded beside the opposite post, as well as the other teammate floating into the high slot for a one-timer.

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03-28-2013, 12:07 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
Yes and no. I believe that the excellent goaltender / excellent defense balance is necessary for long-term success. Of course, you get the standing-on-his-head goaltender emerging from time to time, but this is more the exception, and very few goaltenders can do this consistently over their careers.

Brodeur was mentioned further on as an example; he's definitely an HoF goalie, but look at the system around him. He largely has the luxury of reducing his concentration to the shooter and stopping that first shot. Please note the word "largely"; I know you can show me a dozen YouTube videos contrary to this, but I'm trying to give a broader scope. Few things are worse for a goaltender (in my limited experience) than trying to be ready for a shot and a pass at the same time, and to feel the need to not just stop shots but to corral them all the time. The Devils have historically done an excellent job of reducing the shot quality (keeping shooters outside), clogging up passing lanes, closely checking (interfering with ) teammates near the net, and clearing rebounds.

A defense doesn't have to block every shot, but they can minimize passing that improves the shot quality and can grab the puck after the first save. At least one D should be within a stick length of the goal crease when defending in their zone, and the forwards should be aware of their positioning and where the opposition players are. I don't see the latter with the current Flyers "system". I'd wager that any goaltender playing for the Flyers has his efficiency reduced – this is, of course, relative to his efficiency in and of itself – by regularly trying to defend against the shooter and his teammate standing unguarded beside the opposite post, as well as the other teammate floating into the high slot for a one-timer.
Beautifully put.

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03-28-2013, 12:24 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Within reason, this is correct.

You shouldn't need to have a D permanently attached to the goal crease to be good. It helps, but it shouldn't be a 60 min necessity.
its not. watch the games. our defense DOES hang around the crease, detrimentally. they allow too much space to skilled players and have no idea what man to man coverage and following the play mean most games. our defense is INSANELY passive. that is coaching.

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03-28-2013, 12:36 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by gto64dr View Post
The goaltender needs to make the stops no matter and at all costs.
gotchya: puck in net = goalie's fault.

lets sign our 20th goalie in 24 years for next year. yup, that must be the solution.

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03-28-2013, 12:37 PM
  #595
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gotchya: puck in net = goalie's fault.

lets sign our 20th goalie in 24 years for next year. yup, that must be the solution.
When those goalies are never good enough, yeah. It probably is. It's dumb to hold onto a bad goalie just for the sake of not changing. If a guy isn't working you gotta let him go, especially if there's a big cap hit involved.

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03-28-2013, 12:42 PM
  #596
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Yes and no. I believe that the excellent goaltender / excellent defense balance is necessary for long-term success. Of course, you get the standing-on-his-head goaltender emerging from time to time, but this is more the exception, and very few goaltenders can do this consistently over their careers.

Brodeur was mentioned further on as an example; he's definitely an HoF goalie, but look at the system around him. He largely has the luxury of reducing his concentration to the shooter and stopping that first shot. Please note the word "largely"; I know you can show me a dozen YouTube videos contrary to this, but I'm trying to give a broader scope. Few things are worse for a goaltender (in my limited experience) than trying to be ready for a shot and a pass at the same time, and to feel the need to not just stop shots but to corral them all the time. The Devils have historically done an excellent job of reducing the shot quality (keeping shooters outside), clogging up passing lanes, closely checking (interfering with ) teammates near the net, and clearing rebounds.

A defense doesn't have to block every shot, but they can minimize passing that improves the shot quality and can grab the puck after the first save. At least one D should be within a stick length of the goal crease when defending in their zone, and the forwards should be aware of their positioning and where the opposition players are. I don't see the latter with the current Flyers "system". I'd wager that any goaltender playing for the Flyers has his efficiency reduced – this is, of course, relative to his efficiency in and of itself – by regularly trying to defend against the shooter and his teammate standing unguarded beside the opposite post, as well as the other teammate floating into the high slot for a one-timer.
completely agreed. if these Flyers were the Devs Cup winning teams, I'd be completely happy with Bryz.

put Bryz on the 2010 team & we'd have a CUP. even Emery would have been ok.

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03-28-2013, 12:48 PM
  #597
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completely agreed. if these Flyers were the Devs Cup winning teams, I'd be completely happy with Bryz.

put Bryz on the 2010 team & we'd have a CUP. even Emery would have been ok.
You're still failing to justify keeping him for this cap hit until he's 39 years old.

"Put him behind a truly amazing defense, and he's good!" Well, that's true of a lot of goalies...goalies who can be had for cheaper, making it easier to afford more of those solid defensive players.

Someone with a 5.6 million dollar cap hit needs to be self-sufficient at times, and Bryz hasn't proven he can do that with any reliability. That 5.6 million dollar cap hit cuts into the funds that can be used for building that defense, so the goalie needs to have a semblance of an ability to make up for some defensive deficiencies. That's been a rarity for Bryz.

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03-28-2013, 12:52 PM
  #598
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So some folks get mad when Bryzgalov's cap hit gets mentioned. "It shouldnt matter they say" or something to that affect.
So the cap hit only matters to the skaters but not to the most important position in the game.
Makes perfect sense to me

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03-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #599
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So some folks get mad when Bryzgalov's cap hit gets mentioned. "It shouldnt matter they say" or something to that affect.
i say the cap hit has no bearing on whether or not a shot that goes in is a "bad goal"

as in: "a goalie getting paid xxx has to shop that stop" [suggesting it was stoppable, based on dollars paid to him]

do we then say: "it's ok he let in that same goal, he only makes 200,000 a year"

no, it doesn't work like that when i judge why a goal is scored.

i only go by the "on the ice" aspect". i don't say "it's ok for a low paid goalie to let that it, but not a highly paid goalie"

i pay to play hockey, even so, that doesn't change my standards. a bad goal is a bad goal. it has nothing to do with dollars bills.


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03-28-2013, 01:02 PM
  #600
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i say the cap hit has no bearing on whether or not a shot that goes in is a "bad goal"

as in: "a goalie getting paid xxx has to shop that stop" [meaning it was stoppable.

but: "it's ok he let in that same goal, he only makes 200,000 a year"

no, it doesn't work like that when i access why a goal is scored.

i only go by the "on the ice" aspect. i don't say "it's ok for a low paid goalie to let that it, but not a highly paid goalie"
So you divorce yourself from reality to ignore the impact he has on the team with his contract compared to actual performance.

Because otherwise, the sheer amount of goals he lets in compared to his cap hit would be inconvenient and make him look bad, I guess.

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