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Old
03-11-2013, 01:07 PM
  #76
Alberta_OReilly_Fan
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Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
If obvious you don't understand how high our managment is on Ramo, Brossoit and Gillies. Gillies, especially... he's performing REALLY well thus far in his young career.

Subban is good, no doubt... but I don't think you see Iginla moved for a goaltending prospect. That simply will not be Calgary's focus when analyzing what needs to be returned in any hypothetical Iginla trade. Goaltenders, typically, do not hold as much value as players in other positions; I would wager that would hold true for goaltending prospects as well.

I may not speak for Flames management, but given my knowledge of this team and from what I know from other sources, I probably have a really good read on what to expect. So plug your opinion, I'm cool if you do that... I have mine and I know where it comes from.
i dont want to slag on Calgary and their goaltending issues cause my bruin's history is every bit as crazy and I dont like to throw bricks when i live in a glass house but that said

you talk awefully confident and happy for someone whose team has Trevor Kidd and Brent Krahn and Leland Irving in its history books. Living in Alberta all my life, I remember in the past when these guys were being inked into the lineups as the answer for the future.

I remember when Mikka Kiprusoff was picked up for a second round pick and no one batted an eye really cause who was he? And I remember when JS Gigure was sent packing and no one really shed a tear over that either cause again... who was he?

Trying to figure out what goalies actually will end up being the answer and which one's wont be is a real crap shoot most of the time.

My Bruins shipped out Bill Ranford at the start of his career cause they didnt feel he had what it took to be the starter for a winning team. We thought we were overloaded with good young goalie prospects when we had Toivonen at the AHL level and Raycroft taking up space at the NHL level.

It was very lucky for us that we took a flyer on Tim Thomas though and traded for a prospect named Tukka Rask when things went south with Raycroft.

Trying to figure out goalies... is really difficult. No one saw Dominek Hasek coming or Tim Thomas... and where did Victor Rask just come out of? Anaheim is a pretty interesting team to study for goalies too...

they had Gigure as their starter when they won their cup... but then Bryzalgov was getting quoted in the Russian papers saying that he was going to be their starter... Of course, he was too shaky so they waive him off to Phoenix... then Hillier comes along so its all good... but now he seems to be fading for them and they got the new guy. If Gigure had never gotten hurt he might still be their guy but their plans have like changed 3 times in like the past 6 years or so as to who their goalie of the future is.

All that said, Id have a hard time giving up one of my top players for a young unproven goalie too. I dont blame you as a fan for not wanting to do it. Young goalies are notorious for not having any trade value.

About the only 2 examples of a team giving up a ton of crap for a young unproven goalie is recently what Colorado did for Varlemov {how is that working out?} and in the past with what Philly did for Ken Wregget

you have to look quite hard to find other examples where young goalie prospects/kids fetched back more then a second rounder or some other very questionable return.

even the game's very best goalies at the prime of their career rarely fetch back much return. Roberto Louongo and Dominek Hasek and Patrick Roy were all dealt at the top of their careers and look what they fetched back.

I see the landscape littered with goalies like Subban dealt for second rounders... and so often the team that dealt the goalie lived to regret it. It's just a losing proposition to deal off goalies like this because you never get value for them.

let's you and I agree that you dont want your team relying on Subban to develop as a key to this deal and I dont want us giving him up if all we are getting back is a rental for him.

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03-11-2013, 01:18 PM
  #77
agreen23
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
No, not really. They may be your top prospects but neither are on the level of a Baertschi, and your first most certainly is no where close to being as valuable as ours currently is.
Spooner is scoring at a higher rate than Baertschi in the A over two times the sample size. And a supporting cast argument is not valid here because the PBs have been PATHETIC until this year. A lot of their success has to do with Spoons arrival.

Koko is scoring close to 2PPG since arriving back in Windsor with 21G and 26A in 26 games played. Koko has paced the same as Galchenyuk in the O this year (Galys first half versus Kokos second half) and better than all the leading scorers in the O. Scheifele is the only comparable PPG. He is producing at an outstanding rate on a pretty bad Spitfire team.

Dont see why neither of the prospects are on Sven's level. Zero of the 3 have proven anything at the NHL level and until one does, they all are on the same level. 'A' grade prospects with the offensive skill sets to be top 6 players and all have pretty similar size too.

I would be skeptical of trading either Spoons or Koko for an aging rental but would include either or both in a package for a young top 6 scorer or top 4 dman. Iginla's price is a little to steep.


Last edited by agreen23: 03-11-2013 at 01:27 PM.
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Old
03-11-2013, 01:30 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
The Penguins also got Dupuis who was the 2nd best player in that deal. Just about everyone thought Esposito was a bust, Colby Armstrong was a 4th liner with a ceiling of a 3rd liner and Chrostensen had a good wrist shot and absolutely nothing else. You can't just discount Dupuis in this deal. He was worth both Armstrong and Christensen by himself. You are also leaving out the other player recieved in the Kovalchuk deal and Bergfors is not a top 9 forward in the NHL. No prospects dealt in any of those deals was as good as Spooner or Khokhlachev are right now.

The Pronger deal was better but still did not have as good of a prospect as Spooner or Khokhlachev in it. That is the point, he would return plenty of pieces, but to convince any team to move their best prospects that they actually like a lot is going to be next to impossible.

Sure, Iginla will get a 1st, a prospect who will play in the NHL, maybe a useful but unspectacular NHL player in a package but you are not going to see any future stars or even very good 2nd liners coming in the deal unless they are drafted with whatever picks they get. Teams do not trade those kind of players for UFA's that are pure rentals. No team has done that in recent years anyway.

I am sure Boston would give up a 1st,
Tyler Rendell, Chris Bourque, Mark Goggin, Adam Morrison and more mediocre prospects or failed former high draft picks for Iginla because that still isn't worth as much as a 1st and Spooner or Koko.

Even in the deal that the Flames acquired Iginla, the only reason they got such a good player is because Nieuwendyk wanted a long term deal and could not come to terms with the Flames. When Dallas traded for him they knew he would be there for years not months.

We are talking about getting Iginla for what could be just a couple of months because there is no way Boston can re-sign him without restructuring their team and at his age Iginla is not someone to build around. That is one reason why older UFA's do not get the best prospects in return. Another is that the team trading for a player like that always gives up their 1st round pick or more and will not have any 1st round talent coming into the system for that year unless they get extremely lucky, giving up their best prospects takes several years of drafting away from them and they will reach the point where they do not have the players to restock with. It is bad business. Maybe you can do things like that if you are well below the cap or have other 1st round picks or the player you are trading for will be with your team and at his peak for the next 5 years but none of this describes the Iginla situation.

It is too late to trade Iginla for a mega return, he will just get a big return now. If the Flames re-signed him to a reasonable contract then he would have a different value.

That is my opinion anyway and I'll admit that I could be wrong and someone will overpay for Iginla in a desperation move but I doubt Boston gives their best prospects and a 1st or even one of those 2 in a deal for someone who will be lucky to play 20 regular season games.
Two things.
1. You can't use hindsight to set and evaluate value on prior trades
2. You clearly overrate Spooner/Khohklachev.

For example at the time of the trade Pascal Dupuis was 28 years old, and had 15 points in 62 games that season. He was NOT the player he is today, and wouldn't be had that deal never been made. In addition to that both Armstrong and Christensen were 5 years younger and were producing at a higher rate during that season. As I mentioned earlier Amrstrong was also a former first round pick. Pascal Dupuis was a throw in piece in a similar way that Blake Comeau or Lee Stempniak would be.

Angelo Esposito was NOT a bust either. He was still in Juniors at the time of the trade and was less than a year removed from being selected 20th overall.

At the time of the trade Niclas Bergfors was in fact a top nine forward in the NHL. He had 13 goals, and 27 points in 54 games that season in the NHL. Anssi Salmela was again another throw in piece (17 NHL games played at 25 years old) that never amounted to anything. Calgary would have no problems adding a similar piece, and in fact would probably prefer it.

Ryan Spooner and Alexander Khohklachev are good prospects, but far from elite. They are not guaranteed to be anything at all. Risks are taking from both teams in these trades. Boston would risk losing a top prospect in their system and a late first rounder for a single playoff run, while Calgary risks losing the face of their franchise for no NHL players.

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:37 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by agreen23 View Post
Spooner is scoring at a higher rate than Baertschi in the A over two times the sample size. And a supporting cast argument is not valid here because the PBs have been PATHETIC until this year. A lot of their success has to do with Spoons arrival.

Koko is scoring close to 2PPG since arriving back in Windsor with 21G and 26A in 26 games played. Koko has paced the same as Galchenyuk in the O this year (Galys first half versus Kokos second half) and better than all the leading scorers in the O. Scheifele is the only comparable PPG. He is producing at an outstanding rate on a pretty bad Spitfire team.

Dont see why neither of the prospects are on Sven's level. Zero of the 3 have proven anything at the NHL level and until one does, they all are on the same level. 'A' grade prospects with the offensive skill sets to be top 6 players and all have pretty similar size too.

I would be skeptical of trading either Spoons or Koko for an aging rental but would include either or both in a package for a young top 6 scorer or top 4 dman. Iginla's price is a little to steep.
Sven is a year younger and the Heat are the 2nd least offensive team in the league scoring at an amazing rate of 2.1 goals a game, in fact the team has been useless without Sven as with Sven they averaged 2.7 goals a game without him they average 1.8 goals a game. Stats aren't the entire story Sven is literally carrying the Heat.

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03-11-2013, 01:49 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by agreen23 View Post
Spooner is scoring at a higher rate than Baertschi in the A over two times the sample size. And a supporting cast argument is not valid here because the PBs have been PATHETIC until this year. A lot of their success has to do with Spoons arrival.

Koko is scoring close to 2PPG since arriving back in Windsor with 21G and 26A in 26 games played. Koko has paced the same as Galchenyuk in the O this year (Galys first half versus Kokos second half) and better than all the leading scorers in the O. Scheifele is the only comparable PPG. He is producing at an outstanding rate on a pretty bad Spitfire team.

Dont see why neither of the prospects are on Sven's level. Zero of the 3 have proven anything at the NHL level and until one does, they all are on the same level. 'A' grade prospects with the offensive skill sets to be top 6 players and all have pretty similar size too.

I would be skeptical of trading either Spoons or Koko for an aging rental but would include either or both in a package for a young top 6 scorer or top 4 dman. Iginla's price is a little to steep.
So what you're saying is Spooner + Koko + 1st for Bouwmeester, right?

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03-11-2013, 02:40 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Sven is a year younger and the Heat are the 2nd least offensive team in the league scoring at an amazing rate of 2.1 goals a game, in fact the team has been useless without Sven as with Sven they averaged 2.7 goals a game without him they average 1.8 goals a game. Stats aren't the entire story Sven is literally carrying the Heat.
Theyre both 92s. Spooner is ~8 months older.

Spooner is leading his team in assists, points, PPP, +/- (tied) and is second in SOG as a rookie.

Jamie Tardiff had a career high of 15 goals. Now he plays with Spoons and has had 26 goals in 50 games. Sounds like Spooner is doing a pretty good job at carrying his team's offense as well, don't it?

The PBs have been terrible for a few seasons and the injection of youth (Spoons, Krug, Trotman) is a big reason why we have turned it around this season.

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Old
03-11-2013, 02:53 PM
  #82
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Two things.
1. You can't use hindsight to set and evaluate value on prior trades
2. You clearly overrate Spooner/Khohklachev.

For example at the time of the trade Pascal Dupuis was 28 years old, and had 15 points in 62 games that season. He was NOT the player he is today, and wouldn't be had that deal never been made. In addition to that both Armstrong and Christensen were 5 years younger and were producing at a higher rate during that season. As I mentioned earlier Amrstrong was also a former first round pick. Pascal Dupuis was a throw in piece in a similar way that Blake Comeau or Lee Stempniak would be.

Angelo Esposito was NOT a bust either. He was still in Juniors at the time of the trade and was less than a year removed from being selected 20th overall.

At the time of the trade Niclas Bergfors was in fact a top nine forward in the NHL. He had 13 goals, and 27 points in 54 games that season in the NHL. Anssi Salmela was again another throw in piece (17 NHL games played at 25 years old) that never amounted to anything. Calgary would have no problems adding a similar piece, and in fact would probably prefer it.

Ryan Spooner and Alexander Khohklachev are good prospects, but far from elite. They are not guaranteed to be anything at all. Risks are taking from both teams in these trades. Boston would risk losing a top prospect in their system and a late first rounder for a single playoff run, while Calgary risks losing the face of their franchise for no NHL players.
Esposito dropped almost 20 spots from where he was rated at one point and there were people who said they would not have taken him in the second round either. Dupuis was a very good 3rd liner. Christensen had a great wrist shot and couldn't make it with Crosby as his center and Armstrong was clearly no more than a 3rd liner and although he was fan favorite in Pittsburgh, he was not a top 6 player and barely a top 9 player.

Whether I overrate anyone doesn't really matter, what matters is how the Bruins rate them and they have said that they rate them very highly and there has not been a deal where a team trades their best prospect and a 1st for an UFA to be at the trade deadline. It just has not happened. It might be different if they thought their top prospects were not very good, but they think these guys will be 1st or 2nd liners in the near future according to several interviews with management where they discussed prospects.

You talk about Calgary losing the face of their franchise, but really you should be saying losing the face of their franchise 20 games early.

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Old
03-11-2013, 03:07 PM
  #83
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Theyre both 92s. Spooner is ~8 months older.

Spooner is leading his team in assists, points, PPP, +/- (tied) and is second in SOG as a rookie.

Jamie Tardiff had a career high of 15 goals. Now he plays with Spoons and has had 26 goals in 50 games. Sounds like Spooner is doing a pretty good job at carrying his team's offense as well, don't it?

The PBs have been terrible for a few seasons and the injection of youth (Spoons, Krug, Trotman) is a big reason why we have turned it around this season.
I never said that Spooner is bad player in fact I think he is very good and would love to have him on the Flames, but the fact that there are other players on the B's that can help Spooner is why I don't value him as highly, the Heat simply can't score without Sven it maybe the same with out Spooner we don't know but Sven doing what he has with no help is more impressive to me.

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03-11-2013, 03:18 PM
  #84
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I wouldn't trade either Koko OR Spooner for Iginla. He is a pure rental, and has no business fetching opposing teams top prospect(s) in a trade. Maybe some team will over pay for him, but I can't imagine Chiarelli would. It's not his style.

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03-11-2013, 03:28 PM
  #85
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I wouldn't trade either Koko OR Spooner for Iginla. He is a pure rental, and has no business fetching opposing teams top prospect(s) in a trade. Maybe some team will over pay for him, but I can't imagine Chiarelli would. It's not his style.
Kaberle wasn't an overpayment?

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03-11-2013, 03:42 PM
  #86
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Kaberle wasn't an overpayment?
No. There was potential of him being re upped after the season but the teams decided to part ways. With Iginla the Bruins pretty much would have no other option but to walk away. That's the difference.

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03-11-2013, 03:51 PM
  #87
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No. There was potential of him being re upped after the season but the teams decided to part ways. With Iginla the Bruins pretty much would have no other option but to walk away. That's the difference.
That's fair, what if it was a sign and trade deal(I know they never happen) we sign Iginla to a 2 year 12 million deal and keep half of the cap hit then does Spoon come into play as Iginla would only cost you 3 million giving you a fair amount to sign Rask.

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03-11-2013, 03:59 PM
  #88
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If you guys are gonna scratch him, Mcquaid for Whitney?

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03-11-2013, 04:06 PM
  #89
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If you guys are gonna scratch him, Mcquaid for Whitney?
No. Quaider is young, physical, cheap and a good leader. We havent scratched him. If we do end up getting a top 4 dman at the deadline it will be Ference as the odd man out.

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03-11-2013, 04:13 PM
  #90
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That's fair, what if it was a sign and trade deal(I know they never happen) we sign Iginla to a 2 year 12 million deal and keep half of the cap hit then does Spoon come into play as Iginla would only cost you 3 million giving you a fair amount to sign Rask.
So essentially a $3m per year Iginla signed for the next 2 years? Yes, I'd include Spooner.

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03-11-2013, 04:18 PM
  #91
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So essentially a $3m per year Iginla signed for the next 2 years? Yes, I'd include Spooner.
Seems fair, it won't happen infact we won't ever trade Iginla so it really doesn't matter.

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Old
03-11-2013, 04:35 PM
  #92
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It would be interesting to see Calgary get a highly touted draft pick for iginla. IE. Niewendyk for Iginla

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03-11-2013, 04:38 PM
  #93
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Seems fair, it won't happen infact we won't ever trade Iginla so it really doesn't matter.
I really hope Iginla signs soon, it would be a little sad to see him leave the Flames.

The Flames have always been a team that I liked ever since they beat the Canadiens in the finals, I really want to see them do better than they have been doing. I am all for forgetting about any Iginla to Boston deal.

Now that the Flames have a few good propsects I could understand a full rebuild and trade of their older players, but I could understand trying to keep Iginla for the rest of his career.

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03-11-2013, 04:45 PM
  #94
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I really hope Iginla signs soon, it would be a little sad to see him leave the Flames.

The Flames have always been a team that I liked ever since they beat the Canadiens in the finals, I really want to see them do better than they have been doing. I am all for forgetting about any Iginla to Boston deal.

Now that the Flames have a few good propsects I could understand a full rebuild and trade of their older players, but I could understand trying to keep Iginla for the rest of his career.
Personally I think he walks at the end of the season, he doesn't want to be the bad guy and ask for a trade (nor should he have to) in the offseason a team like Pitts will offer him a deal to play on a top team and he will most likely take it, while it would sting it will be best for this franchise to face the cold hard fact that it sucks.

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03-27-2013, 09:22 PM
  #95
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Close....lol

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03-27-2013, 09:33 PM
  #96
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Oilers fans would like to see both of the OP's deals done. Win/Win

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