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M. Richards, J. Carter trade in retrospect

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Old
03-27-2013, 08:21 PM
  #226
SensontheRush
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It was either Richards + Carter, or Pronger (if the rumored cultural diversity is pertinent). They proved last season they are winners and that they shouldve been kept.

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03-27-2013, 08:23 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
I think it's fair to say that the offensive production of the Kings this year (top ten in the league) is directly attributed to having two stellar lines that can score on any given shift, which is directly due to Richards and Carter on the second line. They cause opponents nightmares in matchup decisions which opens up room for the other three lines. Say what you want about Simmonds and Voracek out scoring Richards and Carter individually this season, but the Kings are a superior offensive and defensive squad and Richards and Carter are key components of that.
ok....so then we should just ignore Couturier, Schenn and the picks that turned into Grossmann and Cousins? How hard is it for LA fans to just say the Flyers made 2 good trades that will help them for many years. And LA made 2 trades to make a run at the playoffs that ended up with a Cup win. This is a win-win deal here.

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03-27-2013, 08:27 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
The Kings are actually averaging more goals per game and have a significantly better production level at 5 on 5. The system talk was relevant last year, but I don't buy it this year, especially since the Flyers only have Timonen who contributes towards a transition game. Simmonds and Voracek are producing more because the Flyers powerplay is the only good thing that they have going right now. They also happen to be two of the biggest reasons why the powerplay is so successful.

Look, you can make an argument that Richards and Carter are still more valuable to the Kings, but you can't just simply discount Voracek and Simmond's production because of the system. It's not even really true, and it's also 100 percent unfair to two players who have been relative bright spots on a horrible team this year.
So the Flyers don't play a mainly offensive system? Kings have improved on offense but they still have a more balanced system. Voracek and Simmonds are not the two way minded forwards Carter and Richards are. I'm not going to discount their production entirely, but I don't believe that they would have close to the same numbers on the Kings. I just don't think it's fair to compare both players point productions on two completely different systems and then say that the player with more points is better.

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03-27-2013, 08:27 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Better how exactly? Points? The Flyers play a purely offensive focused system, Kings focus more on defense. Despite Voracek scoring 34 points in 32 games he's still a -8. Carter has 18 goals without the benefit of an offensive system. How is Voracek better? Richards had a bad start but he's still more valuable than Simmonds. You put Simmonds back on the Kings and his production would be cut in half. The system is what is giving these guys more points. A system that is not working as can be seen by the fact that the Flyers are at the bottom of the Eastern Conference. Scoring points is not the end all, be all. Richards and Carter may not have the best stats in the league but they are providing more than just numbers.
I think it's fair to say that from the perspective of most Flyers fans, Voracek is playing better for the Flyers now than Carter did then. In fact, Voracek is playing the way everyone wished Carter played when he was a Flyer. He making things happen virtually every shift, he drives the net, uses his size and speed better than Carter did, works harder in the gritty places, just in general he is more involved on a consistent basis than Carter was. I liked Carter a lot and wouldn't at all mind having him on the Flyers now (cap issues aside) but I wouldn't trade Voracek for him.

Richards and Simmonds play different roles, but they bring a lot of the same thing- gritty play, on ice leadership, and toughness. Richards is probably a more valuable player overall, but you'd have a hard time finding a Flyers fan who is dissatisfied with Simmonds.

As has been said several times already, the whole thing was win-win for everyone, except CBJ.

Edit: I also don't think you can really attribute the numbers Voracek and Simmonds are putting up to Lavi's system. Because quite frankly, that system isn't working very well this year (see Giroux, Briere, Hartnell...)

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03-27-2013, 08:34 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by SensontheRush View Post
It was either Richards + Carter, or Pronger (if the rumored cultural diversity is pertinent). They proved last season they are winners and that they shouldve been kept.
They really didn't.

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03-27-2013, 08:40 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
So the Flyers don't play a mainly offensive system? Kings have improved on offense but they still have a more balanced system. Voracek and Simmonds are not the two way minded forwards Carter and Richards are. I'm not going to discount their production entirely, but I don't believe that they would have close to the same numbers on the Kings. I just don't think it's fair to compare both players point productions on two completely different systems and then say that the player with more points is better.
No they don't. The Flyer forwards try to play that uptempo game like they did last year, but they simply don't have the transition game from the defense to make it work. Doughty, Voynov, Martinez, and Scuderi are much more capable of pushing the play than everyone on the Flyers defense outside of Timonen. It's part of the reason why the Kings are one of the best 5 on 5 offenses and the Flyers are one of the worst.

So why are the Flyer's players producing more? Their powerplay is one of the best in the league, and they both are key cogs as to why. It's also not a coincidence that the only defenseman that plays on their unit is Timonen.

Richards and Carter are very good players, but they're also in much better positions to succeed offensively. The Flyers aren't bad because of Simmonds/Voracek. They're bad because they have no transition game out of their own zone, the defense isn't good in their own zone, the goaltending has been average at best, and most importantly, they don't even have the right pieces to play Lavy's system.

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03-27-2013, 08:40 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Better how exactly? Points? The Flyers play a purely offensive focused system, Kings focus more on defense. Despite Voracek scoring 34 points in 32 games he's still a -8. Carter has 18 goals without the benefit of an offensive system. How is Voracek better? Richards had a bad start but he's still more valuable than Simmonds. You put Simmonds back on the Kings and his production would be cut in half. The system is what is giving these guys more points. A system that is not working as can be seen by the fact that the Flyers are at the bottom of the Eastern Conference. Scoring points is not the end all, be all. Richards and Carter may not have the best stats in the league but they are providing more than just numbers.
That would be a good argument if LA didn't have 9 more goals than Philly...

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03-27-2013, 08:44 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
ok....so then we should just ignore Couturier, Schenn and the picks that turned into Grossmann and Cousins? How hard is it for LA fans to just say the Flyers made 2 good trades that will help them for many years. And LA made 2 trades to make a run at the playoffs that ended up with a Cup win. This is a win-win deal here.
Because the moves you made did not make you better, just younger. Explain how all those players have put you in a better position to win a cup? I'm not talking if they get more defensive help or fix the goaltending, how did these moves in particular help the Flyers to improve?

You replaced Carter and Richards with more offense. Grossman is the only player acquired that helped the defensive liability. The Flyers have had a defense and goaltending problem for over 20 years. You have a chance to change the makeup of the team by trading franchise players for young talent and you get more of the same thing.

Great offensive talent. Aging, big, subpar defense. Terrible goaltending = the Flyers from early 1990s to present and no stanley cups. This is what I've seen from watching the flyers over those 20 years. It's not going to get any better until the team changes the way it builds a team.

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03-27-2013, 08:46 PM
  #234
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It's also worth noting that the trades are impossible to gauge right now. Richards and Carter are in the midst or their primes. They're playing the best hockey now that you'll probably see them play on a cup competitor with a lot of other great pieces around them.

The core of Schenn/Couturier/Simmonds/Voracek hasn't even come close to starting their primes. In fact, only Simmonds and Voracek have started to really break out. If the Flyers are cup competitors in 3-5 years when Richards and Carter are at the tail ends of their primes, then you can say the trades were even, especially if those four guys are a big reason for the team's success.

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03-27-2013, 08:50 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Because the moves you made did not make you better, just younger. Explain how all those players have put you in a better position to win a cup? I'm not talking if they get more defensive help or fix the goaltending, how did these moves in particular help the Flyers to improve?

You replaced Carter and Richards with more offense. Grossman is the only player acquired that helped the defensive liability. The Flyers have had a defense and goaltending problem for over 20 years. You have a chance to change the makeup of the team by trading franchise players for young talent and you get more of the same thing.

Great offensive talent. Aging, big, subpar defense. Terrible goaltending = the Flyers from early 1990s to present and no stanley cups. This is what I've seen from watching the flyers over those 20 years. It's not going to get any better until the team changes the way it builds a team.
So you can discount those players because of other flaws on the team that they have no control over? None of those guys can step in and improve the defensive unit, and they certainly can't make Bryz pull his head out of his ass. All they can do is try and score and do the right things in their positions, which they have incredibly well. They're both two of only a few reasons why the Flyers aren't in last place in the entire league. They both even scored last night in what was an embarrassing display by the defense and goaltending.

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03-27-2013, 08:53 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Because the moves you made did not make you better, just younger. Explain how all those players have put you in a better position to win a cup? I'm not talking if they get more defensive help or fix the goaltending, how did these moves in particular help the Flyers to improve?

You replaced Carter and Richards with more offense. Grossman is the only player acquired that helped the defensive liability. The Flyers have had a defense and goaltending problem for over 20 years. You have a chance to change the makeup of the team by trading franchise players for young talent and you get more of the same thing.
Great offensive talent. Aging, big, subpar defense. Terrible goaltending = the Flyers from early 1990s to present and no stanley cups. This is what I've seen from watching the flyers over those 20 years. It's not going to get any better until the team changes the way it builds a team.
Remember that when those trades were made, they still had Pronger. BUT, I do agree that 1 out of the 4 main assest should have been a young D-man.

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03-27-2013, 09:08 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Because the moves you made did not make you better, just younger. Explain how all those players have put you in a better position to win a cup? I'm not talking if they get more defensive help or fix the goaltending, how did these moves in particular help the Flyers to improve?

You replaced Carter and Richards with more offense. Grossman is the only player acquired that helped the defensive liability. The Flyers have had a defense and goaltending problem for over 20 years. You have a chance to change the makeup of the team by trading franchise players for young talent and you get more of the same thing.

Great offensive talent. Aging, big, subpar defense. Terrible goaltending = the Flyers from early 1990s to present and no stanley cups. This is what I've seen from watching the flyers over those 20 years. It's not going to get any better until the team changes the way it builds a team.
This is certainly not true, as I would say that Couturier is already the best defensive forward of all the players involved. If he isn't now he will be.

I really don't understand why people who are fans of other teams feel the need to prove to Flyers fans that the Flyers made a bad trade. As if fans of other teams could be anywhere near as critical of Flyers management as Flyers fans are. Trust me, if these were bad trades for the Flyers, Flyers fans would be the first to say so.

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03-27-2013, 09:15 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
So you can discount those players because of other flaws on the team that they have no control over? None of those guys can step in and improve the defensive unit, and they certainly can't make Bryz pull his head out of his ass. All they can do is try and score and do the right things in their positions, which they have incredibly well. They're both two of only a few reasons why the Flyers aren't in last place in the entire league. They both even scored last night in what was an embarrassing display by the defense and goaltending.
You keep saying that I'm calling those players bad but I'm not. I'm saying they are on the exact same path as Richards and Carter or Gagne or Lindros or whatever other big offensive leader the Flyers have had over the past 20 years. They are good, even great but they can't win because they have no defensive assistance. I keep hearing the word better thrown around but if you took those guys out and plugged in Richards, Carter, Lupul, Umburger, etc. from 2007 it would be the same thing. Even if you want to make the argument that this version is better than the last one 5/6 years ago, that still does not put them any closer to a Stanley Cup.

They get close to a cup, they lose because ****** defense and goaltending, they start over again with new offense. They are wasting this talent like they have done before with those guys I mentioned because Ed Snider refuses to change the same system he's had since forever.

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03-27-2013, 09:23 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
You keep saying that I'm calling those players bad but I'm not. I'm saying they are on the exact same path as Richards and Carter or Gagne or Lindros or whatever other big offensive leader the Flyers have had over the past 20 years. They are good, even great but they can't win because they have no defensive assistance. I keep hearing the word better thrown around but if you took those guys out and plugged in Richards, Carter, Lupul, Umburger, etc. from 2007 it would be the same thing. Even if you want to make the argument that this version is better than the last one 5/6 years ago, that still does not put them any closer to a Stanley Cup.

They get close to a cup, they lose because ****** defense and goaltending, they start over again with new offense. They are wasting this talent like they have done before with those guys I mentioned because Ed Snider refuses to change the same system he's had since forever.
And what can those guys do about the defense and goaltending? If that's you're beef with management and how they build a team, then fine. I agree with that completely. I've been screaming for a more defensive team for 2 years now, and for better goaltending for as long as I can remember.

But you started this whole thing by saying the forwards acquired weren't as good as Richards and Carter, and they're only producing more because of the system. So what is it? What are your arguing exactly?

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03-27-2013, 09:37 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
You keep saying that I'm calling those players bad but I'm not. I'm saying they are on the exact same path as Richards and Carter or Gagne or Lindros or whatever other big offensive leader the Flyers have had over the past 20 years. They are good, even great but they can't win because they have no defensive assistance. I keep hearing the word better thrown around but if you took those guys out and plugged in Richards, Carter, Lupul, Umburger, etc. from 2007 it would be the same thing. Even if you want to make the argument that this version is better than the last one 5/6 years ago, that still does not put them any closer to a Stanley Cup.

They get close to a cup, they lose because ****** defense and goaltending, they start over again with new offense. They are wasting this talent like they have done before with those guys I mentioned because Ed Snider refuses to change the same system he's had since forever.
WOW...I guess you are right. Philly should 100% follow LA's blueprint to win a cup. MISS THE PLAYOFFS FOR 6 STRAIGHT YEARS AND STOCKPILE PICS AND YOUNG PLAYERS. Then make an offseason trade for a #2 C. Then make a trade midseason to try and get into the playoffs. Then rely on an elite performace from your goalie to win a Cup 9 years after the first time you missed the playoffs.

I guess we will see in 9 years how this all works out.

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03-27-2013, 09:47 PM
  #241
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I feel Philly made a big mistake. But i can say that in hindsight because i lnow Pronger's injury.

Regardless of how the two guys did in LA, they had a Cup contending team. Trade JVR for a young goalie and they're running for the Cup. Now the teams ages are all out of sync and the way the Flyers play, they won't be in a Cup final again for who knows how long...Giroux may be UFA by that time.

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03-27-2013, 09:47 PM
  #242
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WOW...I guess you are right. Philly should 100% follow LA's blueprint to win a cup. MISS THE PLAYOFFS FOR 6 STRAIGHT YEARS AND STOCKPILE PICS AND YOUNG PLAYERS. Then make an offseason trade for a #2 C. Then make a trade midseason to try and get into the playoffs. Then rely on an elite performace from your goalie to win a Cup 9 years after the first time you missed the playoffs.

I guess we will see in 9 years how this all works out.
This has been proven wrong so many times in this thread. The Kings missed the playoffs those years, but they only had like three top ten picks in that time frame. Those picks amounted to Doughty, Hickey, and Schenn. Only one was on the roster last year, so that's not how they got to this level. They made some shrewd trades and and built slowly with a great developmental system that was able to groom some later picks into quality NHL players.

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03-27-2013, 09:53 PM
  #243
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As a Flyer fan, I do those trades over and over again...the guys we got are only going to get better over the years!
And what makes you think any of those players will be here for'years"? Other than Gagne, nobody in recent history has been on the team longer than 6 years. Ed Snider is not a patient man and now that he's hitting 80, what lilttle rationality he has is fading fast.
He's shown in the past several years that he believes you buy a championship, you don't build one. That swinging for the fences mentality gets you more strikeouts than home runs.
This is a business to him and if he thinks that trading any of those 4 players or any other Flyer will get that Cup (at least in hismind) he'll trade them in a heartbeat. As much as it's nice to envision this group remainiung together for the amount of 'years' some Flyers fan feel it will take for them to grow , mature and develop, odds are not in your favor, not based on history.
They need goaltending and a #1 defensemen. And since the Flyers have horrid Cap Managment skills and have very liittle blue chip prospects to trade, in order to fit those players, the ones Snider will targer when this team fails to make the playoffs and embarasses him again (as he was when the Bruins knocked them out) he'll have to trade one of the core players to afford it.
Buying out Briere and Bryz won't do that, not with them at 70 mill and the Cap at 64 with other players to resign.
And then there is hte $$ contract that Giroux will get (rumnored to be 8 yrs/ 72 mill) next year, same as the years B Schenn anbd Coutuier are due for new contracts, among other players.
I'd like to think this team will remain intact, but it's not likely.

Dean Lombardi has put together a very good team with it's key players, it's core IQuick, Kopi, Richards, Carter, Doughty) all signed long term and Brown wil lbe taken care of next year. Having what he identified as his 'four foundations' (positionally) in place (a stud goalie, an elite defensement and 2 stud 2 way centers) creates a team that can compete for a Cup for years.
Adding Richards (espeically) and Carter got them that Cup and their contracts, will provide staiblity for the Kings. That's a big tip on the scale in the favor of the Kings for the trade for Richards. I just can' see how the Flyers can retain the core of the team given their needs and financial constraints


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03-27-2013, 09:54 PM
  #244
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I guess I don't understand the argument that the Carter and Richards trades made the Flyers a better team if what it did was to make them a younger team and possibly a better team in the future. They were contenders then, and they rebuilt on the fly only to become a team that will be good again in a couple of seasons? I think the Flyers were a better playoff team before the trades. Imagine this team with Richards and Carter along with Giroux, Hartnell, and Briere. They could have traded maybe one of them shrewdly for good defensemen or a good goaltender, but instead they just got younger versions of Carter and Richards that could be as good as they are a couple of seasons down the line.

It's pretty strange.

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03-27-2013, 10:13 PM
  #245
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I think it was win win for both. LA gets gritty experience and a cup. Philly is happy with their young guys.

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03-27-2013, 10:42 PM
  #246
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As a Flyer fan, I do those trades over and over again...the guys we got are only going to get better over the years!

The crappiness that is the Flyers this year is not the fault of those 4 players....
As a King fan I agree. I think log term, this is a great trade fro the Flyers. We may look back on this in 5 years and think the Flyers made out like bandits. As a King fan, I am hopeful that we have a couple of Stanley Cups on the shelf to ease the pain. Time will tell on all of this

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03-27-2013, 10:44 PM
  #247
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These trades killed Philidelphia's hopes for a cup run.

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03-27-2013, 11:00 PM
  #248
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These trades killed Philidelphia's hopes for a cup run.
No, that was Pronger going down. Cup contenders don't get swept.

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03-27-2013, 11:11 PM
  #249
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Kings fans are happy with their return.

Flyers fans are happy with their return.

Jackets fans are happy with their return.

We all win, especially these two.


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03-28-2013, 06:45 AM
  #250
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Still too soon to tell. Also, people need to remember that Carter wasn't traded from the Flyers to the Kings. Some people seem to think the Flyers plopped them together in LA and they never looked back on the way to a Cup.

Either way, the debates on the Flyers board have stopped about why they were traded...because no one truly knows. The front office is never honest or forthcoming about their decisions, aside from the "we decided we couldn't win with those guys" Clarke threw out there, which seems like total BS.

I feel like the Flyers have won both trades, landing Voracek (leading scorer), Simmonds (3rd in points), Brayden Schenn who's certainly coming around (4th in points), an 8th round pick (Couturier), a 2nd round pick (traded for Grossmann), and a 3rd round pick (Nick Cousins)

Despite LA acquiring Carter and reaping a Stanley Cup, and the Flyers current spot in the standings, I feel like these moves set the Flyers up fairly well for many years to come, whereas I question the longevity of Mike Richards, as his style of play doesn't suit his body type well, and past injuries prove that.

I, as well as most Flyers fans didn't bat an eyelash when Carter was dealt, but were completely shocked when Richards was traded 30 mins later. But I'd do both trades again, no question.
Philly traded the face of their franchise alongside another key centerpiece. Once those 2 left town they helped their team win a cup, while the Flyers never looked the same without them.

The return Philly got for Richards and Carter barely fills the void they left.

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