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M. Richards, J. Carter trade in retrospect

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Old
03-28-2013, 06:51 AM
  #251
blinds
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Originally Posted by hiptanaka View Post
Philly traded the face of their franchise alongside another key centerpiece. Once those 2 left town they helped their team win a cup, while the Flyers never looked the same without them.

The return Philly got for Richards and Carter barely fills the void they left.
O.o The return Philly got is also still incredibly young, and they lost arguably the best defenseman in the league. Of course they don't look the same. Give them at least 5 years to get NEAR the age Richards and Carter were when they left.

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03-28-2013, 07:13 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I feel Philly made a big mistake. But i can say that in hindsight because i lnow Pronger's injury.

Regardless of how the two guys did in LA, they had a Cup contending team. Trade JVR for a young goalie and they're running for the Cup. Now the teams ages are all out of sync and the way the Flyers play, they won't be in a Cup final again for who knows how long...Giroux may be UFA by that time.
Yep. I mean, look how long it took us to get to the Conference finals after the last time we missed the play-offs!

...

Seriously though. We're not a million miles away from being good again. One defenseman, a new coach and another year's development for the kids and we're sorted. A winger for Giroux (Ryan) would be a quicker fix.

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03-28-2013, 07:16 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by DyslexicTom View Post
I guess I don't understand the argument that the Carter and Richards trades made the Flyers a better team if what it did was to make them a younger team and possibly a better team in the future. They were contenders then, and they rebuilt on the fly only to become a team that will be good again in a couple of seasons? I think the Flyers were a better playoff team before the trades. Imagine this team with Richards and Carter along with Giroux, Hartnell, and Briere. They could have traded maybe one of them shrewdly for good defensemen or a good goaltender, but instead they just got younger versions of Carter and Richards that could be as good as they are a couple of seasons down the line.

It's pretty strange.
But we didn't get that at all. Voracek and Simmonds are only marginally worse than Carter and Richards combined, if at all. Voracek is far out-performing the pair of them alone. They're certainly out scoring them. Then we've got Couturier and Schenn on top with Cousins to come.

The reason the Flyers are struggling now is nothing to do with the two trades. We'd suck with C&R as we do without them, if not worse.

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03-28-2013, 07:24 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by hiptanaka View Post
Philly traded the face of their franchise alongside another key centerpiece. Once those 2 left town they helped their team win a cup, while the Flyers never looked the same without them.

The return Philly got for Richards and Carter barely fills the void they left.
You're so wrong it's hard to know where to start. Well, lets go with 'face of the franchise'. They dealt Richards because they had another, better franchise player in the wings. They got back a better player in the Carter deal than Carter will be and an 8th overall too.

As for filling the void, Simmonds and Voracek are out scoring Carter and Richards.

These deals will be looked at now like LA 'won' because they got the cup, but time will see Philadelphia as heavy winners for my money. So much talent back and so young too.

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03-28-2013, 07:34 AM
  #255
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This thread is comical to be honest. I love reading these opinions like..."LA won a cup so they won the trade".

I guess the other 18 guys on the ice have no influence in the outcome of the game. Just those two.

Or this..."Flyers are terrible now and would be in position to play for a cup w/Richards and Carter".

I guess those two would somehow fix the problems on the defensive transition game and leaky goaltending.

Very comical to say the least.

Geesh let's have opinions where people actually watch games.

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03-28-2013, 08:51 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by martz11 View Post
This thread is comical to be honest. I love reading these opinions like..."LA won a cup so they won the trade".

I guess the other 18 guys on the ice have no influence in the outcome of the game. Just those two.


Or this..."Flyers are terrible now and would be in position to play for a cup w/Richards and Carter".

I guess those two would somehow fix the problems on the defensive transition game and leaky goaltending.

Very comical to say the least.

Geesh let's have opinions where people actually watch games.
Simple fact is that LA doesn't win the cup, or likely make the playoffs without both of these players. The end goal is to win a championship. So the argument is valid.

Right now LA did win the trade(s). Years from now...things may or may not change.

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03-28-2013, 08:51 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
You're so wrong it's hard to know where to start. Well, lets go with 'face of the franchise'. They dealt Richards because they had another, better franchise player in the wings. They got back a better player in the Carter deal than Carter will be and an 8th overall too.

As for filling the void, Simmonds and Voracek are out scoring Carter and Richards.

These deals will be looked at now like LA 'won' because they got the cup, but time will see Philadelphia as heavy winners for my money. So much talent back and so young too.
That's cool and all, but what if the Flyers don't win the cup with this group? Will they then be considered as "heavy winners"?

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03-28-2013, 09:01 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
O.o The return Philly got is also still incredibly young, and they lost arguably the best defenseman in the league. Of course they don't look the same. Give them at least 5 years to get NEAR the age Richards and Carter were when they left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
You're so wrong it's hard to know where to start. Well, lets go with 'face of the franchise'. They dealt Richards because they had another, better franchise player in the wings. They got back a better player in the Carter deal than Carter will be and an 8th overall too.

As for filling the void, Simmonds and Voracek are out scoring Carter and Richards.

These deals will be looked at now like LA 'won' because they got the cup, but time will see Philadelphia as heavy winners for my money. So much talent back and so young too.
I didn't mean a void from a perspective of purely talent. More so referring to intangibles, leadership, heart & soul type attributes (at least for Richards), etc.

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03-28-2013, 09:04 AM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiptanaka View Post
Philly traded the face of their franchise alongside another key centerpiece. Once those 2 left town they helped their team win a cup, while the Flyers never looked the same without them.

The return Philly got for Richards and Carter barely fills the void they left.
The last year with Carter and Richards the Flyers ended up with 106 pts. The first year without them they ended up with 103 pts. And that was without Pronger for most of the season. I'd say the void was filled well enough.

As for not looking the same, that was kind of the point. Holmgren said, "I don't know if we will be better but we will be different". He was not looking for replacements for those two players, he was looking for a change in direction.

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03-28-2013, 09:33 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by TheSlovenian View Post
That's cool and all, but what if the Flyers don't win the cup with this group? Will they then be considered as "heavy winners"?
Who's to say we'd have won it with them? We'll be in a better position to win the cup in the next 5 years than we were before.

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03-28-2013, 09:35 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by hiptanaka View Post
I didn't mean a void from a perspective of purely talent. More so referring to intangibles, leadership, heart & soul type attributes (at least for Richards), etc.
Oh intangibles. The old HF classic. If only we had the heart and soul intangibles where someone would go out in an elimination game, knock the best player in the league out of the game and score all before his second shift.

Giroux has intangibles coming out of his ass.

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03-28-2013, 09:37 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by dabeechman View Post
Simple fact is that LA doesn't win the cup, or likely make the playoffs without both of these players. The end goal is to win a championship. So the argument is valid.

Right now LA did win the trade(s). Years from now...things may or may not change.
1) We only made 1 trade with LA.
2) there's a strong line of thought that the sheer act of a trade was enough to kick them into gear, not necessarily who they got.

If Richards or Carter finished >PPG or won an ward then fair enough, but they weren't stand-out by any means.

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03-28-2013, 09:43 AM
  #263
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Win-Win.

Philly failed multiple times to win a cup with Richards/Carter and got 4 good young forwards for them to rebuild their core

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03-28-2013, 10:02 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by caps4cup View Post
That would be a good argument if LA didn't have 9 more goals than Philly...
]

And the Kings also have allowed 19 goals less and are unhappy about their defensive game.

The Kings are playing a more defensive game, and still out scoring the Flyers, that probably gives a better view of the different directions of the teams.

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03-28-2013, 11:29 AM
  #265
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This thread is stupid. As a kings fan I would do this trade over and over again. Having finally gotten to witness what it feels like to win the cup is something I will never forget.

The flyers got some nice young talent to fill their needs and appear very happy with what they got.

Why does someone always have to argue who wins a trade? If both teams are happy with what they got, then its a win win situation.

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03-28-2013, 12:00 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
This thread is stupid. As a kings fan I would do this trade over and over again. Having finally gotten to witness what it feels like to win the cup is something I will never forget.

The flyers got some nice young talent to fill their needs and appear very happy with what they got.

Why does someone always have to argue who wins a trade? If both teams are happy with what they got, then its a win win situation.
11 pages later....

Are Kings fans happy? Yes.
Are Flyers fans happy? Yes.

Why is there a thread about this?

I know they got rid of ties in hockey... But not everything has to have a winner and loser.

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03-28-2013, 12:03 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
If Richards or Carter finished >PPG or won an ward then fair enough, but they weren't stand-out by any means.
Carter had four goals in the Stanley Cup Finals including the cup winning goal and an overtime winner, but like you said, he didn't stand out

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03-28-2013, 12:54 PM
  #268
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Maybe getting traded was the kick in the butt he needed to have his first good playoffs after five poor-to-mediocre playoff runs in Philly.

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03-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Maybe getting traded was the kick in the butt he needed to have his first good playoffs after five poor-to-mediocre playoff runs in Philly.
Maybe that's all any of Brind'Amour, Prospal, Pitkanen, Williams, Carter, Richards, Gagne, etc needed too.

The Flyers trade away future Cup winners like it's their job. Want to win a Cup? Get traded out of Philadelphia.

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03-28-2013, 01:02 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Maybe getting traded was the kick in the butt he needed to have his first good playoffs after five poor-to-mediocre playoff runs in Philly.
I'm sure it had nothing to do with him finally not being injured in the playoffs as well

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03-28-2013, 01:24 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
Maybe that's all any of Brind'Amour, Prospal, Pitkanen, Williams, Carter, Richards, Gagne, etc needed too.

The Flyers trade away future Cup winners like it's their job. Want to win a Cup? Get traded out of Philadelphia.
Pitkanen hasn't won a Stanley Cup and quietly admitted that he wanted to be traded. He was never cut out to play in a major market like Philadelphia or Edmonton.

Williams was never the player he was hyped to be while in Philadelphia. You can say the Flyers gave up to early on him, but he was traded for much needed defensive help for a playoff run that ended to the eventual Stanley Cup champion Lightning in the Eastern Conference Finals. Danny Markov was a very good player and would have likely been resigned if not for alleged personal issues.

Primeau for Brind'Amour wasn't a pure hockey move. There were alleged tensions between Lindros and Brindy. Obviously Lindros was going to be the one that was kept. It would have looked pretty even if Keith hadn't suffered a freak career ending concussion in the middle of his prime. He was the captain of the club and was noted for his huge playoff run in 2003-2004.

Prospal has been on a ton of teams and has never won the cup.

Same with Zubrus from the other thread where you brought this up.

Richards/Carter/Gagne is true, but it's also way to early to speculate that those trades have blown up in the Flyers face. If the group of Simmonds/Voracek/Couturier/Schenn go on to win a cup during their primes in Philadelphia, then the trades worked out for both clubs.

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03-28-2013, 01:25 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
Maybe that's all any of Brind'Amour, Prospal, Pitkanen, Williams, Carter, Richards, Gagne, etc needed too.

The Flyers trade away future Cup winners like it's their job. Want to win a Cup? Get traded out of Philadelphia.
As I said in the other thread, Prospal and Pitkanen never won Cups. Neither did Zubrus who you brought up there.

Maybe do some research next time before making false claims to try and prove a pretty ridiculous point. Traded players win Cups all the time, not just ones traded by the Flyers.

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03-28-2013, 01:36 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by TheSlovenian View Post
That's cool and all, but what if the Flyers don't win the cup with this group? Will they then be considered as "heavy winners"?
I guess Boston won the Kaberle trade with Toronto too right?

And again...PHILLY DIDN"T TRADE CARTER TO LA.

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03-28-2013, 01:44 PM
  #274
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I guess Boston won the Kaberle trade with Toronto too right?

And again...PHILLY DIDN"T TRADE CARTER TO LA.
Doesn't change the fact that he ended up in LA with Richards. Basically, Columbus traded Courterier and Vorachek to Philly and, thru no fault of the Flyers, got Jack Johnson in return.

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03-28-2013, 01:52 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
This has been proven wrong so many times in this thread. The Kings missed the playoffs those years, but they only had like three top ten picks in that time frame. Those picks amounted to Doughty, Hickey, and Schenn. Only one was on the roster last year, so that's not how they got to this level. They made some shrewd trades and and built slowly with a great developmental system that was able to groom some later picks into quality NHL players.
And at no time did I say get top end picks. In LA, missing the playoffs for 6 years while this build was happening is fine. In Philly, it would not be. Hell, just look at the outrage from this 1 shortened season. People quickly forget that Philly had:
103 points last year...good for 6th best and
got to the 2nd round...which put them in the top 8 for playoffs

That's how quickly people forget. Imagine if Philly decided to do a slow rebuild for 4 years. People would be jumping off of buildings.

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