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Old
03-27-2013, 11:27 AM
  #451
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Saying the team doesn't give full effort is just an easy excuse for Muller to blame on his subpar coaching and him getting outcoached every game.

Sure, effort could be a problem, but it's likely because they're tuning out their overmatched coach who's in over his head. Muller might have shorter self-life than Laviolette as a coach.

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03-27-2013, 11:33 AM
  #452
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Originally Posted by visor wearing goon View Post
Saying the team doesn't give full effort is just an easy excuse for Muller to blame on his subpar coaching and him getting outcoached every game.

Sure, effort could be a problem, but it's likely because they're tuning out their overmatched coach who's in over his head. Muller might have shorter self-life than Laviolette as a coach.
x10 and one can only hope. It is the bench that the booing should be directed towards.

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03-27-2013, 11:39 AM
  #453
Boom Boom Anton
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So a group of the same players have now tuned out Laviollette, Maurice and Muller?

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone (including Muller) deserves his share of the blame for the way the team is performing now, but it's up the the players to give effort on the ice.

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03-27-2013, 11:45 AM
  #454
Finlandia WOAT
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Remember, Muller didn't have a training camp, and he still went with a brand new system in place of Mo's. I would guess that it was simple enough to the point that teams easily solved it within 20 game and a lot of tape sessions.

If he comes back with a more complex/effective system next year, a lot of our problems would be solved. But it's still up to the players to play it, and not ditch it when things don't work out every single time.

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03-27-2013, 12:11 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
So a group of the same players have now tuned out Laviollette, Maurice and Muller?

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone (including Muller) deserves his share of the blame for the way the team is performing now, but it's up the the players to give effort on the ice.
I agree with that, but I think the things people pick out of this burning pile of rubbish and label "lazy" are misguided. To me, the effort missing from this team has nothing to do with failing to move their feet fast enough or having a nice positive attitude toward the refs.

It's a matter of not having anyone (other than occasionally Tlusty) in front of the crease taking the punishment necessary to score on rebounds and tip-ins; or going softly into a corner, hoping to poke the puck loose and have a nice easy scoring opportunity, instead of putting a shoulder into some *******'s chin and working it to a teammate; or bringing the puck over the blue line, fading away to the outside of the faceoff circle, and trying to make a saucer pass all the way across to some other guy weakly hanging around the perimeter because he's ALSO not willing to just drive directly to the net.


To me, those things are the kinds of effort that win hockey games. This team has done nothing the last 6 games but float on the perimeter and look for easy chances. They don't put themselves in a position to get lucky, and I swear last night was the first time in weeks that I've seen one of our players knock the opposing net off its pegs on a rush.

This team needs two things:

1) A major injection of grit and physicality, and I don't mean the kind that you get from a LaRose or Dwyer. We need a Lucic, Bertuzzi, Pronger type of "**** you" attitude that knocks players down instead of making drive-by poke-checks. Right now we are a team that other teams love to play against, and it's not because we don't have talent. It's because after 60 minutes, the opponent got a nice workout and no sacrifices. We need to be a team that other teams HATE to play. That's how NHL teams win, and it always has been.

2) A coach who will demand that kind of play on a shift-by-shift basis. I think Muller is that kind of coach at heart, and I haven't given up on him, but not for one second do I believe that these players are making a collective decision to intentionally play this way. Instead of bag skating them or giving them days off or whatever the hell he's doing in between games, Muller needs to instill a culture change in terms of what he demands of the players during their 60 minutes on the ice. We need a proper breakout system, even if that means having all 5 guys come back and help out. We need a man in front of the net -- if he can't get it done, we need two men in front of the net. And damnit, we need to play the game in straight lines. GO TO THE NET. Period. It's mite-level hockey sense. Stop protecting your damn face and GO TO THE NET.

Hopefully the Jussi waiver was a signal that a significant culture change is about to take place. I would like to see JR give Muller a significant upgrade in physicality, and then re-evaluate whether his coaching style has a prayer of being effective with this group.

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03-27-2013, 12:23 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I agree with that, but I think the things people pick out of this burning pile of rubbish and label "lazy" are misguided. To me, the effort missing from this team has nothing to do with failing to move their feet fast enough or having a nice positive attitude toward the refs.

It's a matter of not having anyone (other than occasionally Tlusty) in front of the crease taking the punishment necessary to score on rebounds and tip-ins; or going softly into a corner, hoping to poke the puck loose and have a nice easy scoring opportunity, instead of putting a shoulder into some *******'s chin and working it to a teammate; or bringing the puck over the blue line, fading away to the outside of the faceoff circle, and trying to make a saucer pass all the way across to some other guy weakly hanging around the perimeter because he's ALSO not willing to just drive directly to the net.
No argument there, and that's the type of effort I as referring to. A lot of them don't seem to want to win the battles they need to win (in front of the net, in the corners, etc...). That's also what I was referring to.

Look at the first goal against last night. While McBain made a bad pinch and Peters probably wanted to have it back, it started with E. Staal making a very soft attempt on Kane. I realize Eric Staal will never be a "banger", but he's got to win that battle or at least slow Kane up enough so that he can't just take off.

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03-27-2013, 12:23 PM
  #457
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You're right Tarheel. I think Staal does need Cole.

Seriously, I agree with everything you have said. The problem is, where is that money going to come from? Maybe the year after next, if the cap skyrockets again and we'll get lucky in FA, but right now, money is too tight to get anyone significant out of FA.

So we either need to draft someone who will do that (with a high pick, which we won't get this year) or we need to trade, of which, the only thing I can think of is a JJ for Clowe swap. And Clowe is an at best reclamation project at this point. Our best forward prospects are Rask, PDG and Dalpe, and none of them scream "grit" or "intangibles" or whatever we need. Defense looks a bit better with Levi, Lowe and Biega (any news on him btw?), but how are we going to get this interjection of talent?

We may have to give up someone we really don't want to give up after finally acquiring a talented crop of forwards just to improve it even further.

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03-27-2013, 12:31 PM
  #458
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Sorry, but I want JR to avoid anyone that he might consider "physical".

Because frankly, we've been down that road before. It's what netted us such key players like Melichar, Brookbank, Stewart, and Westgarth. As great as it would be to find a Lucic-type player, it's all the more likely JR will **** it up and we'll have another useless 4th liner.

Another thing that JR's missed on is that "All Out" guy. How many players have we grabbed or called up that supposedly love to block shots, provide hits, fight, etc? Then they come here and it's like they're neutered.

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03-27-2013, 12:50 PM
  #459
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Despite the result, I believe they did improve to some degree since the last game. 39 SOG and better pressure hemming them in at times, forcing turnovers off the forechecks instead of token hits because of the extra step and support, and players showing up in the crease to exploit the kind of bouncing junk that worked against us on one of thiers. There actually were 2nd and 3rd efforts by some players that had good results. There were more heads-up moments in the O-zone, and less disfunction. Pavelec was on and gave up few rebounds..he earned his money, even if he didn't have to really stand on his head he was solid.

Muller's coaching has nothing to do with, say, Skinner on the crease whiffing the feed by Brent(?) from behind the net, but something was working enough for that set-up to happen in the first place. Those types of opportunities have been absent with any regularity for quite a few games but I saw more in this one.

And it's up to the players to execute the PP, move the puck, exhibit the poise, and not telegraph everything when trying to pick thier spot. Same thing again this year, it's been atrocious under 2 different coaches now.

Anyway I saw a lot more lack of finishing than lack of opportunity, a lot more were created ES than in recent games.

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03-27-2013, 12:58 PM
  #460
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This team was controlling periods earlier in the season...against the likes of the Devils, Montreal (granted, only one period, but what a period that was), the Caps...they even man-handled the since-undefeated Pittsburgh Fuggin Penguins. They didn't need a Milan Lucic then, so I'm not following this being their #1 current problem. I understand it if you're saying that the lack of physicality of the current roster is a problem, but I'm not sure that a new player is needed.

EDIT: And on that note, with apologies for not having followed the Wallace waivers thread, this recognized lack of physicality sure doesn't mix well with jettisoning Tim Wallace. Now I'm completely unsure as to what Muller is looking for in a physical 4th line. Tim Brent???

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03-27-2013, 12:59 PM
  #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStar4Canes View Post
Despite the result, I believe they did improve to some degree since the last game. 39 SOG and better pressure hemming them in at times, forcing turnovers off the forechecks instead of token hits because of the extra step and support, and players showing up in the crease to exploit the kind of bouncing junk that worked against us on one of thiers. There actually were 2nd and 3rd efforts by some players that had good results. There were more heads-up moments in the O-zone, and less disfunction. Pavelec was on and gave up few rebounds..he earned his money, even if he didn't have to really stand on his head he was solid.

Muller's coaching has nothing to do with, say, Skinner on the crease whiffing the feed by Brent(?) from behind the net, but something was working enough for that set-up to happen in the first place. Those types of opportunities have been absent with any regularity for quite a few games but I saw more in this one.

And it's up to the players to execute the PP, move the puck, exhibit the poise, and not telegraph everything when trying to pick thier spot. Same thing again this year, it's been atrocious under 2 different coaches now.

Anyway I saw a lot more lack of finishing than lack of opportunity, a lot more were created ES than in recent games.
One of the few times I agree with you.

The reason I was so pissed was that, after Pavelec stood on his head and Peters didn't make any outstanding saves, the team mailed it in. But we were playing with them in the first and half of the second.

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03-27-2013, 01:41 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Another thing that JR's missed on is that "All Out" guy. How many players have we grabbed or called up that supposedly love to block shots, provide hits, fight, etc? Then they come here and it's like they're neutered.
Role confusion. I think that's the biggest problem with the teams we've seen recently. I love the idea of a meritocracy, but when you tell grinders they can play on the first unit of the powerplay on the point they start trying to get cute. Tim Brent is an entirely different player here than he was in Toronto. He was a faceoff beast, insane penalty killer, and occasional shorthanded threat. Here, he's soft at 5 on 5, shows no physical ability, doesn't block shots, and just plays effort free minutes trying to score goals with two stone hands. Same thing with Andreas Nodl. He was moved up and down offensive lines to the point where he got the interpretation that his offensive game was what was going to make him stand out and it didn't happen. Same with Anthony Stewart playing on a line with Eric Staal. You can't just throw these grinders out of their game and then expect them to fully embrace the grind when they get demoted. A lot of these guys were just happy to have NHL contracts, similar to Wallace, before we started screwing with their game. Hell, it even happened with Wallace. We moved him up a line or two and he stopped doing what made him effective and tried to be an offensive contributor instead of taking what caused his promotion and trying to do it at the next level. We're seeing the same thing with Patrick Dwyer. It's an epidemic of line shuffling that is causing confusion for these guys about what their roles are supposed to be. That comes from the top down because Muller doesn't have the players to fill out a decent Top 9 and he has to take his guys that are effective elsewhere and plug holes.

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03-27-2013, 02:12 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Role confusion. I think that's the biggest problem with the teams we've seen recently. I love the idea of a meritocracy, but when you tell grinders they can play on the first unit of the powerplay on the point they start trying to get cute. Tim Brent is an entirely different player here than he was in Toronto. He was a faceoff beast, insane penalty killer, and occasional shorthanded threat. Here, he's soft at 5 on 5, shows no physical ability, doesn't block shots, and just plays effort free minutes trying to score goals with two stone hands. Same thing with Andreas Nodl. He was moved up and down offensive lines to the point where he got the interpretation that his offensive game was what was going to make him stand out and it didn't happen. Same with Anthony Stewart playing on a line with Eric Staal. You can't just throw these grinders out of their game and then expect them to fully embrace the grind when they get demoted. A lot of these guys were just happy to have NHL contracts, similar to Wallace, before we started screwing with their game. Hell, it even happened with Wallace. We moved him up a line or two and he stopped doing what made him effective and tried to be an offensive contributor instead of taking what caused his promotion and trying to do it at the next level. We're seeing the same thing with Patrick Dwyer. It's an epidemic of line shuffling that is causing confusion for these guys about what their roles are supposed to be. That comes from the top down because Muller doesn't have the players to fill out a decent Top 9 and he has to take his guys that are effective elsewhere and plug holes.
I agree 100%. One of the biggest reasons I'm willing to withhold judgment on Muller is that he's still working with the vestiges of a weak team. And while JR has made some nice splashes in the talent pool, that doesn't fix the over-abundance of spare parts that are left over from the old roster.

Even as much as I pin a lot of the short-term issues on him, I'm willing to give Muller some time to actually work with a customized roster, which I assume won't happen for at least another offseason.

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03-27-2013, 03:08 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Role confusion. I think that's the biggest problem with the teams we've seen recently. I love the idea of a meritocracy, but when you tell grinders they can play on the first unit of the powerplay on the point they start trying to get cute. Tim Brent is an entirely different player here than he was in Toronto. He was a faceoff beast, insane penalty killer, and occasional shorthanded threat. Here, he's soft at 5 on 5, shows no physical ability, doesn't block shots, and just plays effort free minutes trying to score goals with two stone hands. Same thing with Andreas Nodl. He was moved up and down offensive lines to the point where he got the interpretation that his offensive game was what was going to make him stand out and it didn't happen. Same with Anthony Stewart playing on a line with Eric Staal. You can't just throw these grinders out of their game and then expect them to fully embrace the grind when they get demoted. A lot of these guys were just happy to have NHL contracts, similar to Wallace, before we started screwing with their game. Hell, it even happened with Wallace. We moved him up a line or two and he stopped doing what made him effective and tried to be an offensive contributor instead of taking what caused his promotion and trying to do it at the next level. We're seeing the same thing with Patrick Dwyer. It's an epidemic of line shuffling that is causing confusion for these guys about what their roles are supposed to be. That comes from the top down because Muller doesn't have the players to fill out a decent Top 9 and he has to take his guys that are effective elsewhere and plug holes.
This post needs to be sent to Muller and/or JR. Because it is the briefest but most accurate narrative of EXACTLY what our problems are. Well done Vagrant.

And unlike Tim Brent's hands of stone, this role confusion is a problem that can actually be fixed. Keep the damn player where he most belongs.

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03-27-2013, 03:15 PM
  #465
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Kaiton was on that radio a few minutes ago, and said that LaRose did not travel with the team today, but Faulk and Ellis did. Said both may play this weekend. He thinks tomorrow is highly unlikely, but Saturday is not.

He also kinda hinted that LaRose has the flu, but thinks he might still be having concussion issues.

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03-27-2013, 05:08 PM
  #466
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This team was controlling periods earlier in the season...against the likes of the Devils, Montreal (granted, only one period, but what a period that was), the Caps...they even man-handled the since-undefeated Pittsburgh Fuggin Penguins. They didn't need a Milan Lucic then, so I'm not following this being their #1 current problem. I understand it if you're saying that the lack of physicality of the current roster is a problem, but I'm not sure that a new player is needed.

EDIT: And on that note, with apologies for not having followed the Wallace waivers thread, this recognized lack of physicality sure doesn't mix well with jettisoning Tim Wallace. Now I'm completely unsure as to what Muller is looking for in a physical 4th line. Tim Brent???
Yes this is true. This is the same team that played awesome. The injury bug did hit but that's par for the course for any team. So, where does that leave them? Obviously the other teams figured out how to very effectively shut this team down. Basically two glaring problems (more but these seem to be the biggies). 1 - Muller and coaching staff not knowing how to counter and what to do at all. If anything, what he has accomplished and what a couple of others have suggested, is that he had confused the players. 2 - The players are not playing with intensity and effort. In response to #1, Muller just simply has been outcoached and really isn't a good NHL caliber bench boss (he is not working in isolation by himself. Do none of the other members of the coaching staff have any answers)? Or, are the players not listening to him? If so, why? For #2, Why would they be dogging it so? These guys are professional athletes that fully understand that hustling and hard work are an integral part of the game in order to be successful. Again, they know this. I can see a team playing like this once in a while/time to time. Why are they playing this way constantly now?

We can speculate all we want but we will likely never know what's going on behind the scenes and in their heads. Something/s happened. There are problems with this team and organization. It's not just the fact that they are losing. You can see it in their faces, their attitude. There are some deep issues. They all know it. We don't. We see Muller, the team dogging it and losing. These are results or effects of what's really going on for this hockey team. Iffin ya get my meanin.


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03-27-2013, 07:46 PM
  #467
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No. I'm not getting it. I don't feel the conspiracy. I don't feel some unknown darkness gnawing at organization.

I think they're on a bad stretch of a shortened mess of a season. I think they aren't as good as wed like them to be at this point. Most painful thing to admit? Jets are a better team than us right now. Just a more cohesive team. I don't blame muller for it at all, he's doing the best with what he has. The big moves were to make us competitive again. We are. Just not consistent, with a lack of chemistry. Our d is still soft.

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03-28-2013, 09:26 AM
  #468
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Obviously the other teams figured out how to very effectively shut this team down.
You keep posting this as if there was some newfangled scheme Muller was using and teams adjusted to it. Hardly, and it's nothing like how teams adjusted to the '05-06 Lavi schemes. Muller's scheme is as basic as it gets, centered on aggressive forechecking and puck possession.

How hard is it for teams to figure out that the Canes have one scoring line. You shut it down and without secondary scoring, you have an advantage, especially when you face back-ups in the net every night. Even taking into account that the 2nd line is in a scoring drought too the overall F corps lacks depth, period. That's a personnel issue more than a coaching issue but I doubt you can see that through your lens of Muller is the problem.

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03-28-2013, 09:58 AM
  #469
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You keep posting this as if there was some newfangled scheme Muller was using and teams adjusted to it.
It's pretty clear that our opponents have completely solved our breakout and power play systems. No amount of slumping or bad attitudes can account for players simply not being open for passes, not being in step with each other as they cross the neutral zone, etc. The fact that it's an issue for all four lines and all three defensive pairings, regardless of the combinations, is a pretty clear signal that individual player performance is only a small factor in why those aspects of our game are so awful right now.

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How hard is it for teams to figure out that the Canes have one scoring line. You shut it down and without secondary scoring, you have an advantage, especially when you face back-ups in the net every night. Even taking into account that the 2nd line is in a scoring drought too the overall F corps lacks depth, period. That's a personnel issue more than a coaching issue but I doubt you can see that through your lens of Muller is the problem.
And why should this team not have secondary scoring? We have almost $100M invested in the second line and the third line is not bad at at all. A year or two ago the "we have only one line" excuse would fly, but not any more. We have better depth of forward talent than any of the teams that have kicked our ***** this month.

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03-28-2013, 09:59 AM
  #470
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That's a personnel issue more than a coaching issue but I doubt you can see that through your lens of Muller is the problem.
The inability to effectively move the puck through the neutral zone is a defensive system dominating an offensive system, is it not? Sure, players throwing passes into skates instead of sticks has some bearing on that effectiveness, but not to the overwhelming degree we've witnessed.

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03-28-2013, 10:21 AM
  #471
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And why should this team not have secondary scoring? We have almost $100M invested in the second line and the third line is not bad at at all. A year or two ago the "we have only one line" excuse would fly, but not any more. We have better depth of forward talent than any of the teams that have kicked our ***** this month.
Agreed they should but they don't. On the second line, there is no playmaker. None. Staal is average at best, Skinner is reluctant and Ruutu certainly isn't above average. The third line is simply below par offensviely regardless of who you put out there.

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The inability to effectively move the puck through the neutral zone is a defensive system dominating an offensive system, is it not? Sure, players throwing passes into skates instead of sticks has some bearing on that effectiveness, but not to the overwhelming degree we've witnessed.
Clogging the neutral zone is the calling card of a number of teams, like Boston, Tampa, NJ, Florida, etc. It's hardly a case of a scheme designed to figure out or stop what the Canes are doing, as they're doing the same thing everyone else is. Trying to move through the neutral zone with speed.

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03-28-2013, 10:42 AM
  #472
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It's pretty clear that our opponents have completely solved our breakout and power play systems. No amount of slumping or bad attitudes can account for players simply not being open for passes, not being in step with each other as they cross the neutral zone, etc. The fact that it's an issue for all four lines and all three defensive pairings, regardless of the combinations, is a pretty clear signal that individual player performance is only a small factor in why those aspects of our game are so awful right now.
I don't know that I'd say they know how to shut down the system itself. Honestly I don't know that we've ever really even had a chance to see the system in action. They know how to shut us down, obviously, but I think it's more the players they know how to shut down on the PP.

Let them keep over-passing the puck around until they turn it over, putting pressure on certain players who have a tendency to cough the puck up without a fight. Let them take the occasional weak shot from the point, and all while not having to worry about anyone going to the net to knock in a rebound.

They just let the Canes kill off their own PP.

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03-28-2013, 10:55 AM
  #473
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Maybe the problem with moving the puck has to do with having one defenseman who is good at moving the puck in the lineup at the present moment?

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03-28-2013, 10:57 AM
  #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Clogging the neutral zone is the calling card of a number of teams, like Boston, Tampa, NJ, Florida, etc. It's hardly a case of a scheme designed to figure out or stop what the Canes are doing, as they're doing the same thing everyone else is. Trying to move through the neutral zone with speed.
Still, the coaching staff must have an effective counter-strategy, *especially* given that this defense is as common as you say it is. Now, whether or not they have put one in place and the players are simply not executing it is an open question, but not a known that anyone here is privy to.

Hell, one of the least talented teams (01-02) executed Maurice's system (that everyone loved to **** on) all the way to the SCF. If you are indeed correctly identifying the root cause of their problems, then I disagree that the talent level has anything to do with it, but could see that the player's brain activity (or lack thereof) might be a factor.

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03-28-2013, 11:02 AM
  #475
geehaad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post
Maybe the problem with moving the puck has to do with having one defenseman who is good at moving the puck in the lineup at the present moment?
Who is that? Honestly, I don't see that any one of them is effectively moving the puck.

I've been most disappointed in Pitkanen, given that I'm generally a fan of his, because he appears to be *so* out of sync with the 3 forwards since his return. Too often, he seems to be pushing ahead before the forwards have set themselves up. On other occasions, like maybe during a line-change, he seems to be attempting to start a push while he and McBain are standing flat-footed near the faceoff dots. Just out of sync.

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