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Trade Rumors Thread Part 5: NYR Interested in Boyle, Gaborik Available (MOD: READ OP)

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:02 AM
  #976
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Just because you don't agree with it... doesn't mean that it's not how others see it. Including, most definitely, fans of other teams.

They see us land Richards and trade for Nash, the two biggest names available in past two years and see us in and out of a play-off spot and feel nothing has changed. some would argue that they're right.

Knowledagble fans know we don't get high draft pics, we don't tank, the NHL wouldn't rig a lottery for us... we have to poach free agent talent in order to compete.
i consider posters like Trxjw knowledgeable, that's why I've questioned him on his viewpoint.

I'm not on the main board questioning a Canucks fan...

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03-28-2013, 11:07 AM
  #977
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You'd say this team was not disappointing after making proactive costly moves with lofty preseason expectations ? IN THAT SENSE, not much has changed.
yes, but i understand the reasons for this years struggles as opposed to the futility of past failures..
this years struggles are largely due to both our turnover compounded by the lockout. We've also had to deal with some injuries.

It's frustrating, but that doesn't mean i have to moaning and whining about Sather and 1998, Neved and Kamensky....

i don't see the correlation...

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03-28-2013, 11:12 AM
  #978
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Lev, one pessimistic post would not kill you. Between you and Pizza, I don't think there's one negative post about this team between you two. That's really the only reason I respond, at least you two have seniority over the others who just defend the team at EVERY stop.
Usually I leave the boards when I get too pissed off instead of ranting about it

I also kind of like to have some solutions or at least idea of how to fix things and I don't really know what to do about this current team. Seems like the mix of players hasn't been right and Gaborik has inexplicably been terrible which has hurt them a lot. If it was just Richards who struggled this year it'd be one thing, but him and Gaborik is killing them.

Beyond that, do they need a new coach? New scouting staff? Find a way to absolutely tank and get a top pick? I don't really know. I'm not sure how far away they are from returning to being one of the top teams in the east and what it'd take to get there...

I've also posted plenty of general criticisms about the team and some of their drafting and stuff like that, lest you forget I was a big proponent of Tarasenko and to this day say that the Rangers should have drafted him

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03-28-2013, 11:12 AM
  #979
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yes, but i understand the reasons for this years struggles as opposed to the futility of past failures..
this years struggles are largely due to both our turnover compounded by the lockout. We've also had to deal with some injuries.

It's frustrating, but that doesn't mean i have to moaning and whining about Sather and 1998, Neved and Kamensky....

i don't see the correlation...
Agreed, the team is in a completely different place and is run very differently. Surprisingly, the restraint from the cap actually turned this team around. It was then that our front office had to start using their brains instead of their wallets to build teams.

Our young players and prospects alone should make you feel confident. No longer do we have former stars filling our bottom lines. We have young, hungry and most importantly, talented players throughout our lineup.

Maybe we aren't great this year (I'm still convinced we can make noise in the playoffs) but the future is bright. Every team, especially one that never gets high draft picks, will always have items that need to be addressed. But when i look at this team i see so many positives. Positives that were only a dream in the black era.

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:16 AM
  #980
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Gaborik and Richards are just two of a laundry list of UFA signings that have either "struggled" in NY or have outright failed. What makes Calgary so different from us? They've relied heavily on an elite goaltender for years and the Phaneuf trade wasn't the signalling of a "rebuild" it was a "retooling"; Which is exactly what we've been doing over and over every year since the 2004 fire-sale.

I don't think "mismatched UFAs" is any different than "poor UFA acquisitions." You can use whatever terminology you like, but Calgary's refusal to rebuild their team isn't all that much different than how this team continues to shuffle the deck chairs each year. The only real difference is that we throw far more money at players than Calgary does.
I think the moves we've made over the past few years have been a lot more purposeful than what Calgary has done. I don't think we're a trade or two away from being full on rebuild either...

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03-28-2013, 11:19 AM
  #981
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
yes, but i understand the reasons for this years struggles as opposed to the futility of past failures..
this years struggles are largely due to both our turnover compounded by the lockout. We've also had to deal with some injuries.

It's frustrating, but that doesn't mean i have to moaning and whining about Sather and 1998, Neved and Kamensky....

i don't see the correlation...
1998 is not 10 years ago.

And again, every team has had to contend with the lockout and injuries, those are more excuses.


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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Usually I leave the boards when I get too pissed off instead of ranting about it

I also kind of like to have some solutions or at least idea of how to fix things and I don't really know what to do about this current team. Seems like the mix of players hasn't been right and Gaborik has inexplicably been terrible which has hurt them a lot. If it was just Richards who struggled this year it'd be one thing, but him and Gaborik is killing them.

Beyond that, do they need a new coach? New scouting staff? Find a way to absolutely tank and get a top pick? I don't really know. I'm not sure how far away they are from returning to being one of the top teams in the east and what it'd take to get there...

I've also posted plenty of general criticisms about the team and some of their drafting and stuff like that, lest you forget I was a big proponent of Tarasenko and to this day say that the Rangers should have drafted him
Fair points. Resolutions to fix things? We'd be here all day, bottom line is the one constant has been the GM and ownership. They still have not gotten the job done.

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03-28-2013, 11:23 AM
  #982
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Agreed, the team is in a completely different place and is run very differently. Surprisingly, the restraint from the cap actually turned this team around. It was then that our front office had to start using their brains instead of their wallets to build teams.

Our young players and prospects alone should make you feel confident. No longer do we have former stars filling our bottom lines. We have young, hungry and most importantly, talented players throughout our lineup.

Maybe we aren't great this year (I'm still convinced we can make noise in the playoffs) but the future is bright. Every team, especially one that never gets high draft picks, will always have items that need to be addressed. But when i look at this team i see so many positives. Positives that were only a dream in the black era.
100% agree. I consider myself a realist, and i've been following this team for over 20yrs. If some can't see the difference with the type of struggles this team is having currently, than with the struggles after Messier's 2nd arrival, i don't know what to say. I have no interest trying to convince anyone who's been following this team for a while either.

My only fault is that Sather still sometimes changes too much, but again, the lockout only compounded the turnover. It's just too much to ask in a shortened season, which by the way is not over yet!! Despite the struggles of some players, there is alot to look forward to in our future.

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:33 AM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
1998 is not 10 years ago.

And again, every team has had to contend with the lockout and injuries, those are more excuses.




Fair points. Resolutions to fix things? We'd be here all day, bottom line is the one constant has been the GM and ownership. They still have not gotten the job done.
Truth be told I can't really be assed to worry or complain about ownership. It's not going to change anytime soon barring Dolan going bankrupt out of nowhere. I'm not personally giving them any money myself so there's that I guess.

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03-28-2013, 11:46 AM
  #984
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I think the moves we've made over the past few years have been a lot more purposeful than what Calgary has done. I don't think we're a trade or two away from being full on rebuild either...
Both teams addressed their needs through major trades or UFA acquisitions instead of building those assets internally. The real difference is that we landed bigger names.

It's safe to say that we're in a slightly better position than Calgary because we've been fortunate in developing a younger core of players, but that doesn't change the fact that we still haven't been able to make much progress in the right direction. We've gone from missing the playoffs regularly to regularly being bounced out of the playoffs in the first or second round. That's fine for a few years, but it's been 8 years since the last lockout and we're still struggling to claw our way into the playoffs. Calgary is in a similar situation. Two teams that refuse to take a few steps back in order to take many steps forward.

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03-28-2013, 11:54 AM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Two teams that refuse to take a few steps back in order to take many steps forward.
And lets not call that tanking, tanking is bottoming out on purpose. These two teams have tried to stay competitive, in doing so they have gone against the cards they were given. Instead of just playing those cards and taking some temporary lumps, they tried to proactively build a winner with PAST performers, instead of focusing on the future. We've tried to do both, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

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03-28-2013, 12:06 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
And lets not call that tanking, tanking is bottoming out on purpose. These two teams have tried to stay competitive, in doing so they have gone against the cards they were given. Instead of just playing those cards and taking some temporary lumps, they tried to proactively build a winner with PAST performers, instead of focusing on the future. We've tried to do both, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Right. Honestly, my real fear is that the Rangers become a team even more similar to the Flames as the years go by and our players get older. I look at how long Kipper has been carrying that team in net, and it worries me that Hank will have the same fate.

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03-28-2013, 12:10 PM
  #987
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Right. Honestly, my real fear is that the Rangers become a team even more similar to the Flames as the years go by and our players get older. I look at how long Kipper has been carrying that team in net, and it worries me that Hank will have the same fate.
The main difference between the Rangers and Flames: Derek Stepan.

Calgary hasn't developed a player like Stepan in eons. They haven't a top line center in like 15 years. The Rangers also have their top-3 D corp set and still young in MDZ, Staal, and McDonagh.

The young pieces are in place. The Rangers need to start making smaller moves to compliment the core, not add another huge piece. I feel pretty confident building around Stepan, Nash, McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, and Kreider.

We DO need another young 2nd line C - hopefully Miller can ease his way into that role, I like how he's looked at center this season.

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03-28-2013, 12:12 PM
  #988
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Right. Honestly, my real fear is that the Rangers become a team even more similar to the Flames as the years go by and our players get older. I look at how long Kipper has been carrying that team in net, and it worries me that Hank will have the same fate.
That's easily the worst thing I can think of. I will always love Hank, the way my Dad loved Giacomin, just don't want to be at the Garden chanting 'Henrik, Henrik' as he comes in for first game as a Red Wing in 2020

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03-28-2013, 12:14 PM
  #989
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The main difference between the Rangers and Flames: Derek Stepan.

Calgary hasn't developed a player like Stepan in eons. They haven't a top line center in like 15 years. The Rangers also have their top-3 D corp set and still young in MDZ, Staal, and McDonagh.

The young pieces are in place. The Rangers need to start making smaller moves to compliment the core, not add another huge piece. I feel pretty confident building around Stepan, Nash, McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, and Kreider.

We DO need another young 2nd line C - hopefully Miller can ease his way into that role, I like how he's looked at center this season.
I look at this post, and I then I look at our team on the ice, and it just doesn't make sense...

I love what Torts preaches, but if his system continues to fail next year, he's gotta go.

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03-28-2013, 12:15 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
The main difference between the Rangers and Flames: Derek Stepan.

Calgary hasn't developed a player like Stepan in eons. They haven't a top line center in like 15 years. The Rangers also have their top-3 D corp set and still young in MDZ, Staal, and McDonagh.

The young pieces are in place. The Rangers need to start making smaller moves to compliment the core, not add another huge piece. I feel pretty confident building around Stepan, Nash, McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, and Kreider.

We DO need another young 2nd line C - hopefully Miller can ease his way into that role, I like how he's looked at center this season.
Up until they've reminded me of the Rangers 1998-2003 so much.

-Aching for a rebuild, but keep reloading
-Middling around 9-11 in the conference consistently.
-An abundance of retreads.

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03-28-2013, 12:26 PM
  #991
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
The main difference between the Rangers and Flames: Derek Stepan.

Calgary hasn't developed a player like Stepan in eons. They haven't a top line center in like 15 years. The Rangers also have their top-3 D corp set and still young in MDZ, Staal, and McDonagh.

The young pieces are in place. The Rangers need to start making smaller moves to compliment the core, not add another huge piece. I feel pretty confident building around Stepan, Nash, McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, and Kreider.

We DO need another young 2nd line C - hopefully Miller can ease his way into that role, I like how he's looked at center this season.
Look, I've been Steps cheerleader since he was drafted, but it's far too early to definitively say he's a top-line center. He's had a phenomenal 15 or 20 game stretch, but it's going to take more than that to show he can be a #1C in this league.

4 or 5 years ago, Calgary was the current NYR. They had a long drought of no playoff appearances, then a string of post season showings followed up by summers of "retooling" to fill holes exposed from early playoff exits, and now they're spinning their wheels again. Were their rosters as good on papers as ours? Not quite, but the results were very similar.

I like our youth, but each year we wait for a young guy to fill a hole is another year Lundqvist loses. Another year of wear and tear Cally and Girardi. Another year Richards looks older and slower. Another year of Nash's prime wasted. There's a very big difference between building around those very young players, and looking for those players to fill the holes we need to compete while our real stars are in their prime.

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03-28-2013, 01:29 PM
  #992
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Look, I've been Steps cheerleader since he was drafted, but it's far too early to definitively say he's a top-line center. He's had a phenomenal 15 or 20 game stretch, but it's going to take more than that to show he can be a #1C in this league.

4 or 5 years ago, Calgary was the current NYR. They had a long drought of no playoff appearances, then a string of post season showings followed up by summers of "retooling" to fill holes exposed from early playoff exits, and now they're spinning their wheels again. Were their rosters as good on papers as ours? Not quite, but the results were very similar.

I like our youth, but each year we wait for a young guy to fill a hole is another year Lundqvist loses. Another year of wear and tear Cally and Girardi. Another year Richards looks older and slower. Another year of Nash's prime wasted. There's a very big difference between building around those very young players, and looking for those players to fill the holes we need to compete while our real stars are in their prime.
Good points.

When you look at the overall picture the holes have always been there. We have too many 'scorers', we don't have enough scoring!, we have too many grunts, we don't have any toughness!, Our coach is too safe, our coach does not 'let them loose!'. And every year it changes and every year we lose a sprint instead of trying to win the long distance marathon.

It amazes me how FA contracts from the past 10 years still haunt this team, along with the 2003 draft

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03-28-2013, 01:40 PM
  #993
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Roger Millions ‏@RogMillions 1m
#Flames Jay Bouwmeester admits he and team have talked about possibility of a trade. Hearing as many as 6 teams interested in him.
JBo is next

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03-28-2013, 01:44 PM
  #994
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Good points.

When you look at the overall picture the holes have always been there. We have too many 'scorers', we don't have enough scoring!, we have too many grunts, we don't have any toughness!, Our coach is too safe, our coach does not 'let them loose!'. And every year it changes and every year we lose a sprint instead of trying to win the long distance marathon.

It amazes me how FA contracts from the past 10 years still haunt this team, along with the 2003 draft
I don't know if the powers that be have a grasp on the overall picture. They want to fill holes in the roster by drafting support players, but those players take years to develop; So by the time your supporting cast is ready, your group of stars are on the wrong side of 30 and are being dangled as trade bait or are in jeopardy of being bought out.

I don't think it's a coincidence that our most successful season in years came when we were comprised primarily of young, home-grown players. The problem was the timing and that we had developed too many tractors and not enough Ferrari's.

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03-28-2013, 01:59 PM
  #995
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JBo is next
Yes! Firesale in Calgary.

Detroit has to be the frontrunner.

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03-28-2013, 02:03 PM
  #996
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Both teams addressed their needs through major trades or UFA acquisitions instead of building those assets internally. The real difference is that we landed bigger names.

It's safe to say that we're in a slightly better position than Calgary because we've been fortunate in developing a younger core of players, but that doesn't change the fact that we still haven't been able to make much progress in the right direction. We've gone from missing the playoffs regularly to regularly being bounced out of the playoffs in the first or second round. That's fine for a few years, but it's been 8 years since the last lockout and we're still struggling to claw our way into the playoffs. Calgary is in a similar situation. Two teams that refuse to take a few steps back in order to take many steps forward.
Completely agree 100%. This team is in a state of mediocrity. Not bad enough for good draft picks and not good enough to be contenders. The next few years and the inevitable decline of Hank will be tough to swallow.

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03-28-2013, 02:04 PM
  #997
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Yes! Firesale in Calgary.

Detroit has to be the frontrunner.
If I'm Detroit, why would I go after JBo when I could go after Gaborik?

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03-28-2013, 02:09 PM
  #998
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Ive been making these arguments for years, and they were usually met with scorn.

The first mistake was trading for Jagr and surrounding him with his posse. That was a total waste. Hardly anyone from those teams is still here. Those were stopgap teams, except the stop gaps are supposed to hold you over in years where you get high picks. We didn't do that.

The second mistake was trying to surround those aging players with terrible free agent signings instead of realizing that those teams were miserably flawed and needed to be scrapped.

Mistake three was signing Gaborik instead of dismantling and getting high picks, or at least being patient and getting a legit dynamic multi talent like Kovalchuk.

Chance after chance to rebuild and get a high draft pick to develop a great top line forward was passed over.

You don't go anywhere in this league without some homegrown franchise forwards anchoring your top line (even te year the Bruins won the Cup, Crosby was out). Not only did the Rangers refuse to go through a natural rebuild, but the one chance they had where a top line prospect fell into their laps, they drafted a role player defenseman.

This team does everything backwards, and what you get in they case is what we have now: not bad, but certainly not good enough.

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03-28-2013, 02:09 PM
  #999
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Both teams addressed their needs through major trades or UFA acquisitions instead of building those assets internally. The real difference is that we landed bigger names.

It's safe to say that we're in a slightly better position than Calgary because we've been fortunate in developing a younger core of players, but that doesn't change the fact that we still haven't been able to make much progress in the right direction. We've gone from missing the playoffs regularly to regularly being bounced out of the playoffs in the first or second round. That's fine for a few years, but it's been 8 years since the last lockout and we're still struggling to claw our way into the playoffs. Calgary is in a similar situation. Two teams that refuse to take a few steps back in order to take many steps forward.
The time to take a few steps back IMO, was immediately after the firesale prior the lockout. We canít be delusional either. We follow a NYC hockey team, where there is big $ involved. There is just no way we could be the Islanders of Manhattan.
We signed Jagr and his Czech mates and hockey was fun in NY again. There are many fans that wouldnít trade those days for anything, even some that insist we should have went the Nylander/Jagr route a lot longer.

The fact is though, the Jagr era set us back at least 2 years at least. Letís not forget the loss of Cherepanov and we would have had another 30g + scorer in the lineup (RIP). Add in a couple of horrific draft blunders. Here we sit with an all world goalie, some good core youth, and handful of top 3 forwards, some of which are underperforming horribly. The real key IMO lies in players like Krieder, Miller, and hopefully McIlrath becoming what we envision them to be. Iím not happy things have taken this long, but thatís the way it goes sometimes in this sport. It looks like SJís window might be closing, after being dominant for a very long time, with nothing to show for it. Look at the Islanders, the Oilers who are still waiting for their lumps to pay off despite the amount of talent. Despite some problems, I think weíre nearly there.

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03-28-2013, 02:09 PM
  #1000
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If I'm Detroit, why would I go after JBo when I could go after Gaborik?
Think they need Bouwmeester more. He's having an outstanding year.

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