HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bouwmeester?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-28-2013, 02:11 PM
  #126
Heaton
#disapointment
 
Heaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rochester, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 16,960
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Heaton
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Jbow is not good defensively and neither is Kronwall. If you want to argue he'd be BETTER defensively with the Wings I'll give you that. I'd even concede he might be a slight upgrade defensively on Kronwall playing on the Wings roster (that would be close IMO though)

Someone who is good defensively doesn't need Selke caliber forwards to be a + player.

Bouwmeester is consistently in the - and routinely is among the league leaders in goals against while on the ice.
He plays a lot and he's played on Calgary for a long time now, a non-playoff team with bad players will always make those around them worse.

Heaton is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:11 PM
  #127
Ozy_Flame
Registered User
 
Ozy_Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,087
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
Roger Millions ‏@RogMillions 3 min
#Flames Jay Bouwmeester admits he and team have talked about possibility of a trade. Hearing as many as 6 teams interested in him.

Re-tweeted by Kuklas korner. Not sure how reliable.
Roger Millions is our Sportsnet man on the ground at the 'Dome. If he says this, it's definitely true. Roger even visits CalgaryPuck regularly and is well known to be one of the first guys to talk to Flames players as things happen.

Ozy_Flame is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:16 PM
  #128
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
LA got Scuderi how?
Are you comparing Scuderi to a fourth line grinder?

Dude signed a 4 year, $3,5M contract.

How many guys like that do you get on waivers? How many fourth liners earn those kinds of deals?

RedWingsNow* is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:16 PM
  #129
Detroit Sports
NMC aka LOL -Jimmy H
 
Detroit Sports's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,867
vCash: 500
i hope he goes to Pittsburgh lol i dont want him

Detroit Sports is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:16 PM
  #130
FlashyG
Registered User
 
FlashyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
He plays a lot and he's played on Calgary for a long time now, a non-playoff team with bad players will always make those around them worse.
Maybe its a coincidence, maybe not, but the Flames were a playoff team for 5 years straight before Bouwmeester got there. They haven't made them since.

In his first year there I believe he was also the only regular defenceman who finished with a -.

FlashyG is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:19 PM
  #131
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Are you comparing Scuderi to a fourth line grinder?

Dude signed a 4 year, $3,5M contract.

How many guys like that do you get on waivers? How many fourth liners earn those kinds of deals?
no not at all, what I am saying is he is a bottom pairing stay at home type dman, the exact type of player teams find through free agency and/or the waiver wire, a type of player/role that is much easier to find/address as oppossed to a top pairing 30 minute a night dman

that is all

Zetterberg4Captain is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:27 PM
  #132
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Jbow is not good defensively and neither is Kronwall. If you want to argue he'd be BETTER defensively with the Wings I'll give you that. I'd even concede he might be a slight upgrade defensively on Kronwall playing on the Wings roster (that would be close IMO though)

Someone who is good defensively doesn't need Selke caliber forwards to be a + player.

Bouwmeester is consistently in the - and routinely is among the league leaders in goals against while on the ice.
i believe thats what plus/minus means but i wonder how this works,

-kronwall is a minus 5 on a team that is plus 7
-bouwmeester is a minus 7 on a team that is minus 19

bouwmeester has played more minutes and more minutes per game than kronwall, against tougher opponets and yet is a plus 12 better then his team whereas kronwall who plays less minutes, lines up less often against the othe teams top forwards and yet is a minus 12 worse then his team

plus/minus is only useful in this context

Zetterberg4Captain is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:29 PM
  #133
Vladdy84
L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
i believe thats what plus/minus means but i wonder how this works,

-kronwall is a minus 5 on a team that is plus 7
-bouwmeester is a minus 7 on a team that is minus 19

bouwmeester has played more minutes and more minutes per game than kronwall, against tougher opponets and yet is a plus 12 better then his team whereas kronwall who plays less minutes, lines up less often against the othe teams top forwards and yet is a minus 12 worse then his team

plus/minus is only useful in this context
Kronwall is a soft, mediocre defensively turnover machine. Jay Bo ain't much better.

Vladdy84 is online now  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:29 PM
  #134
kuick
Tatar Sauce
 
kuick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grand Rapids
Country: United States
Posts: 2,702
vCash: 500
When did we start using statistics alone to judge a player? I know many of us don't go out of our way to watch Calgary often (I picked up a discounted Game Center this year so I've been able to watch a handful of games when I'm not doing anything), but JBo is a pretty solid player. Comparing him to Kronwall defensively this season is an insult, but Kronner is definitely the superior offensive guy. Overall, it's pretty close.

+/- is only a useful stat in the right situation. This is not one of those times.

I also enjoy those who criticize Holland for never ever making moves or adding roster players that improve this team but still loathe the idea of adding a guy who would probably be an upgrade over anyone else we can currently ice and is still under 30. Obviously, it's dependent on the price we pay.

kuick is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:30 PM
  #135
DarkReign
Registered User
 
DarkReign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,584
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Neither are good defensively so their offensive production is really all you can compare them by.
What?! What planet...what galaxy is Kronwall better or even with JayBo at actual defense?

What?! Just...what?

Are we watching the same league? JayBo is a fr more proven #1 dman than Kronwall. I like/love Kronwall, seriously. He is signed the a great deal, took the much talked about hometown discount for real and he brings a wonderful element to the lineup on a nightly basis. I can't say it enough, I really really really like Kronwall's game, his leadership and his contract.

But JayBo is better and unfortunately, in some people's eyes, he is paid like it.

DarkReign is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:31 PM
  #136
BinCookin
Registered User
 
BinCookin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: London, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendricks433 View Post
I think we have enough offense on our D-line. We could use a really solid, physical RH defenseman. $11 million tied up between Kronwall and J-bo would be rough.
Or it is exactly what should be expected:

Forwards (39mil)
1PPG = 6million x3 (Top line = 18mil)
0.5-0.75PPG = 4million x3 (2nd line = 12mil)
0.2-0.35PPG = 2million x 3 (3rd line = 6mil)
0.1-0.2PPG = 0.8-1million x3 (4th line = 3mil)

Defense (20mil)
Top 2 = 5-6 mil (Top 2 = 12 Mil)
3/4 = 2-3 mil (x2 = 6 mil)
5/6 = 1 mil (x2 = 2 mil)

Goalie (5 mil)

Total (39+20+5=65Mil)

These are your "ROUGH" salary cap numbers. If you want anyone with a higher salary, you have to cut salary from another position. This is my go to Salary system.

BinCookin is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:34 PM
  #137
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladdy84 View Post
Kronwall is a soft, mediocre defensively turnover machine. Jay Bo ain't much better.
uh huh

Zetterberg4Captain is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:34 PM
  #138
BinCookin
Registered User
 
BinCookin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: London, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
i believe thats what plus/minus means but i wonder how this works,

-kronwall is a minus 5 on a team that is plus 7
-bouwmeester is a minus 7 on a team that is minus 19

bouwmeester has played more minutes and more minutes per game than kronwall, against tougher opponets and yet is a plus 12 better then his team whereas kronwall who plays less minutes, lines up less often against the othe teams top forwards and yet is a minus 12 worse then his team

plus/minus is only useful in this context
This is the perfect use of plus minus.

Comparison vs the Team you are on.

By this definition JBo is much better defensively than Kronwall.

I think this is the best way to read plus/minus stats. - IN CONTEXT.

BinCookin is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:38 PM
  #139
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
This is the perfect use of plus minus.

Comparison vs the Team you are on.

By this definition JBo is much better defensively than Kronwall.

I think this is the best way to read plus/minus stats. - IN CONTEXT.
absolutely

their is no point comparing a blackhawk(a team that is plus 39 and therefore NO player should be a minus) to a panther(a team that is -39 and therefore most likely no player is a plus player)

jaybo has been on the ice for 12 more goals for then against vs his team despite the fact he plays for a terrible team and is on the ice for that terrible team more often

kronwall on the other hand has been on the ice for 12 more goals against then for vs his team despite the fact he plays for a good team

jaybo is in fact a plus 24 better then kronwall(um thats HUGE) and this is the only way GM's and coachs actually judge player vs player in terms of plus/minus

Zetterberg4Captain is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 02:56 PM
  #140
Crymson
Fire Holland
 
Crymson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,296
vCash: 500
I'll say it again: Bouwmeester is worth neither assets nor his cap hit. But if thinking that the grass is greener makes you feel better, then have at thee. You'll be disappointed, either way, because there's no way that Bouwmeester is coming to the Red Wings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricelund View Post
Whatever Filppula ends up getting from Detroit, he'll be worth it according to Crymson. The Red Wings infallible and if you disagree you're not a true fan.
Man, you truly find me threatening somehow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBauerly97 View Post
Agreed. That's like saying LeBron sucked at basketball when he played in Cleveland just because he didn't win it all there. You can be a good player on a crappy team.
And comparing LeBron James to Jay Bouwmeester is beyond stupid, no matter the context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
He plays a lot and he's played on Calgary for a long time now, a non-playoff team with bad players will always make those around them worse.
The Panthers teams on which he played were roughly equal in capacity to the Flames teams on which he has played. His numbers have nevertheless declined substantially from one to the next. He was a premiere defenseman with the Panthers, but he has not been one with the Flames. He is not what he once was, as the Flames have found out to their chagrin over the past three seasons.


Last edited by Crymson: 03-28-2013 at 03:02 PM.
Crymson is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:08 PM
  #141
SoupNazi
Global Moderator
No Soup for You!!!
 
SoupNazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kramerica Industries
Country: Argentina
Posts: 16,822
vCash: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
their is no point comparing a blackhawk(a team that is plus 39 and therefore NO player should be a minus) to a panther(a team that is -39 and therefore most likely no player is a plus player)
And yet, Blackhawks have minus players and Panthers have plus players.

SoupNazi is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:09 PM
  #142
FlashyG
Registered User
 
FlashyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
This is the perfect use of plus minus.

Comparison vs the Team you are on.

By this definition JBo is much better defensively than Kronwall.

I think this is the best way to read plus/minus stats. - IN CONTEXT.
Its actually a very misleading way to use +/-.

you can only really use it to compare players on the same team and even then its not terribly accurate.

A more accurate way to compare players (defensively) on opposite teams is straight goals against vs team goals against.

Kronwall has been on the ice for 25 goals against of Detroits total 83 or 30%
Bouwmeester has been on the ice for 36 goals against of Calgary's total 108 or 33%

Both are bad defensive players, Bouwmeester might be slightly better defensively, but he isn't enough better that he'd take the #1 minutes from Kronwall and he doesnt' warrant his cap hit at all.

He is the exact opposite of the kind of Defenceman the Wings need right now.

FlashyG is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:18 PM
  #143
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 8,201
vCash: 500
Wings need to avoid this guy like the plague. Wings have enough bums who can't play defense.

27 minutes of mediocre defense isn't gonna cut it. We have Kronwall in that role already.

WingedWheel1987 is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:19 PM
  #144
Hendricks433
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 678
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Or it is exactly what should be expected:

Forwards (39mil)
1PPG = 6million x3 (Top line = 18mil)
0.5-0.75PPG = 4million x3 (2nd line = 12mil)
0.2-0.35PPG = 2million x 3 (3rd line = 6mil)
0.1-0.2PPG = 0.8-1million x3 (4th line = 3mil)

Defense (20mil)
Top 2 = 5-6 mil (Top 2 = 12 Mil)
3/4 = 2-3 mil (x2 = 6 mil)
5/6 = 1 mil (x2 = 2 mil)

Goalie (5 mil)

Total (39+20+5=65Mil)

These are your "ROUGH" salary cap numbers. If you want anyone with a higher salary, you have to cut salary from another position. This is my go to Salary system.
Sorry, I meant for those specific 2 players. I dont think J-bo and Kronner are a great combo for a top line for what they get paid.

Hendricks433 is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:21 PM
  #145
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Its actually a very misleading way to use +/-.

you can only really use it to compare players on the same team and even then its not terribly accurate.

A more accurate way to compare players (defensively) on opposite teams is straight goals against vs team goals against.

Kronwall has been on the ice for 25 goals against of Detroits total 83 or 30%
Bouwmeester has been on the ice for 36 goals against of Calgary's total 108 or 33%

Both are bad defensive players, Bouwmeester might be slightly better defensively, but he isn't enough better that he'd take the #1 minutes from Kronwall and he doesnt' warrant his cap hit at all.

He is the exact opposite of the kind of Defenceman the Wings need right now.

as a former hockey coach yes you're right as well but we do tend to look at a players plus/minus vs his teams plus/minus more closely because typically guys who play alot on teams which are bad(bad teams usually give up more goals hence why they're bad) are more likely to be on the ice for more goals against, common sense tells you that.

however if a player plays for a good team that scores more then it gives up and yet that said player is on the ice for more goals against then goals for then that to us was always an strong indicator of a player who wasnt very good in his own zone

Zetterberg4Captain is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:25 PM
  #146
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
And yet, Blackhawks have minus players and Panthers have plus players.
bolland is the only player of note who is a minus player for the hawks

mathias is the only player of note who is a plus player for the panthers

the rule stands

Zetterberg4Captain is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:27 PM
  #147
SoupNazi
Global Moderator
No Soup for You!!!
 
SoupNazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kramerica Industries
Country: Argentina
Posts: 16,822
vCash: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
bolland is the only player of note who is a minus player for the hawks

mathias is the only player of note who is a plus player for the panthers

the rule stands
But you'd be amazed how speaking in generalities isn't a good idea.

SoupNazi is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:34 PM
  #148
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
But you'd be amazed how speaking in generalities isn't a good idea.
hahaha fair enough, the rule though is ALMOST always universally correct(i suppose not always) and its why no coach, no GM, and no scout has ever compared two players on two vastly different teams in terms of overall plus/minus but rather looked at each players plus/minus in regards to his teams overall plus/minus as a more definitive source for comparission

Zetterberg4Captain is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:45 PM
  #149
TatarTangle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Detroit
Country: United States
Posts: 2,013
vCash: 500
You guys know that movie How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days? They have been secretly shooting a movie within the DRW organization called How to Lose an Entire Fan Base in 10 Days.

I hope everyone is ready to see one of Sproul or Ouellet and Tatar or Nyquist and a 1st round draft pick leave town.

What happens on the 10th day? We all buy Chicago Blackhawk jerseys

TatarTangle is offline  
Old
03-28-2013, 03:47 PM
  #150
Vladdy84
L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDrake View Post
You guys know that movie How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days? They have been secretly shooting a movie within the DRW organization called How to Lose an Entire Fan Base in 10 Days.

I hope everyone is ready to see one of Sproul or Ouellet and Tatar or Nyquist and a 1st round draft pick leave town.

What happens on the 10th day? We all buy Chicago Blackhawk jerseys
Yeah right. WE LIKE OUR TEAM. HELM IS COMING BACK SOMEDAY!

Vladdy84 is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:33 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.