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Old
03-28-2013, 09:29 AM
  #26
moosehead81
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I like how you include the Richards & Carter trades as a reason, but leave out the much bigger reason of Pronger's career ending injury.
My sense is that Carter and Richards were let go because of Pronger (and likely Laviolette) and that was the decision that was made at the time. Of course, at that time, was Pronger somehow getting younger and just what is the shelf life of a coach like Laviolette? And letting Bobrovski go may have been the biggest mistake of all.

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03-28-2013, 09:30 AM
  #27
Curufinwe
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Agree about Bob.

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03-28-2013, 09:39 AM
  #28
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I hate thinking about Bob. I try to pretend he doesn't exist.

Who knows if he will be ever be a legit No. 1 'tender. But he would be more than capable if the dolts that run this team had any patience whatsoever.

And now we have the 50 million dollar dolt in net for 7 more years.

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03-28-2013, 09:43 AM
  #29
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Probably only one more season. Thank Bettman for the two amnesty buyouts.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:47 AM
  #30
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--. Whether it was Crosby breaking both of Giroux's wrists like a ***** or the head injury while he was in Europe, Giroux is not the same player with the puck. A lot of issues would have been resolved if he could will us to victory like before. We can't keep the puck in their zone or get the puck out of ours if Giroux isn't making fools of the opposing team.

--. We lost Carle, an important PMD, and replaced him with Schenn and Grossmann. Meszaros was hurt again a lot of the year as well. Gustafsson never really got started. It's not a good sign when three of your top four defensemen move the puck like an active grenade.

--. Injuries. My god were their injuries. Injuries among the wingers and injuries among the defensemen. So many injuries.

--. Bryzgalov was mediocre. While part of the problem was a lack of ability and communication between the defensemen and forwards on moving the puck out of the zone, Bryzgalov was not good this year outside of a small stretch. He was not a playoff caliber goaltender plain and simple; a non-playoff caliber goaltender is quickly a back-up in the NHL.

--. Lack of a real back-up goaltender. There was no one to really relieve Bryz when he started to struggle. Most goaltenders have a reliable back-up that the coach can go to when the starter hits a cold patch. Because of the Bob trade, Bryzgalov really did not have that.

--. Once we started losing consistency, complacency set in. There was no time to rally once the full team was healthy enough to get in the lineup. We were already in a deep hole, and our eyes sort of glazed over. It did not help much that a lot of the guys returning from injury, that were supposed to help us rebound, just completely sucked; Briere, Meszaros, and Hartnell to an extent.




People still blaming the coach, the system, and the GM are missing the big picture. It sounds like the rhetoric you hear from call-ins on 97.5.


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03-28-2013, 09:52 AM
  #31
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No, the coach's system of overly aggressive forechecking and pinching has led to a ridiculous amount of odd man rushes being conceded, while the team struggles terribly to get the puck out of it's own zone and transition to offense. He's done a very poor job with better talent available to him than a team like Ottawa. They have had a lot worse luck with injuries than Philly in 2013.

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Old
03-28-2013, 09:55 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
No, the coach's system of overly aggressive forechecking and pinching has led to a ridiculous amount of odd man rushes being conceded, while the team struggles terribly to get the puck out of it's own zone and transition to offense. He's done a very poor job with better talent available to him than a team like Ottawa.
An exceedingly young team, in a half season, with the wrong personnel, where he was told to change his system, in a year when almost all of his veterans were out for a lengthy period of time...

This is Philadelphia so insert a coach or manager here and blame him for everything.

You know, if you're more intelligent than that you're allowed to show it.

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03-28-2013, 10:00 AM
  #33
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Ed Snider is what happened

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03-28-2013, 10:04 AM
  #34
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A lot of the mistakes from years past by our GM have finally culminated into a turd of a season.

And there could likely be more just like it in the near future.

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03-28-2013, 10:20 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
--. --. Bryzgalov was mediocre. While part of the problem was a lack of ability and communication between the defensemen and forwards on moving the puck out of the zone, Bryzgalov was not good this year outside of a small stretch. He was not a playoff caliber goaltender plain and simple; a non-playoff caliber goaltender is quickly a back-up in the NHL.

--. Lack of a real back-up goaltender. There was no one to really relieve Bryz when he started to struggle. Most goaltenders have a reliable back-up that the coach can go to when the starter hits a cold patch. Because of the Bob trade, Bryzgalov really did not have that.
.
It seems these two statements are in direct relation to each other. I dont think you can just say Bryz has been medicore, when its very likely he has just appeared medicore because there was no one around to relieve him as you said. (Actually you CAN say that, everyone has their own opinions )

Its more likely Bryz would have looked much better if someone had played when he obviously needed rest. Those "small stretched" would have been a more consistent stretch with a compotent back up.

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03-28-2013, 10:25 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Mkoll View Post
It seems these two statements are in direct relation to each other. I dont think you can just say Bryz has been medicore, when its very likely he has just appeared medicore because there was no one around to relieve him as you said. (Actually you CAN say that, everyone has their own opinions )

Its more likely Bryz would have looked much better if someone had played when he obviously needed rest. Those "small stretched" would have been a more consistent stretch with a compotent back up.
That's pretty much what I was going for.

However, Bryz is getting paid enough to not really need those stretches.

I put some of the blame in not having a trust-worthy back-up, but Bryz needs to seriously not suck so hard. Even some decent play would be welcome from him. He's been atrocious.

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03-28-2013, 10:41 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
An exceedingly young team, in a half season, with the wrong personnel, where he was told to change his system, in a year when almost all of his veterans were out for a lengthy period of time...

This is Philadelphia so insert a coach or manager here and blame him for everything.

You know, if you're more intelligent than that you're allowed to show it.
The system has barely changed from last year when the New Jersey Devils embarrassed the Flyers in the playoffs and they lost every single game to the Rangers.

Hartnell and Mezaros were the only veterans out for a lengthy period of time until Briere's concussion. Ignoring the obviously poor job done by the coach is bad, but exaggerating the injuries the team has faced is just sad. There's no comparison to what Ottawa has faced, and they are still firmly in the playoffs.

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:14 AM
  #38
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lol 38 years out without a cup and the homers are still blaming things on "bad luck" and "injuries"

no need to fire the coach, no need to fire the gm.

everything is fine!!!




this team is a hot mess. they can't compete with the boston's and new york's in our conference.
the defense and goaltending are atrocious, the offense is very talented but very young.
Lavy had a good run, but his time has run it's course.


Homer didn't know wtf he wanted to do with this team. was it a rebuild? was it a retool?

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Old
03-28-2013, 11:40 AM
  #39
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In my opinion, 2 main things

1. Lack of truly developing our own players is coming back to bite us hard. We are letting too many players develop at the NHL level. We don't have any mid level players stepping in that can be effective now on cheap contracts.

2. Players in the primes/veterans not living up to their contracts. In my opinion, this is both a cause and a result of point 1. We've traded away the youth and picks we needed to develop for players in or after their primes, which CAN be OK. But we've got little to show for that. Carle walked, Pronger got injured, Mezsaros is always injured and/or is not that good. We re-signed Coburn and Hartnell and they are not performing to their pay.

Then you move onto the UFA signings like Briere and Bryzgalov. In my opinion the monster contracts like these need to never be signed again unless it's a total no brainer. Even talbot to an extent, big length and probably a number against the cap higher than what he brings.

The UFA market has burned us and swallowed up dead cap space. I think a much better strategy is to use the UFA market to augment holes in your lineup with mid level guys. The demand pressures and fact that these guys are all in or exiting their primes mean these are generally bad value.

Building a good team under the cap is all about allocating your resources (cap space) approriately not only by position and age but also to retain flexibility when things go wrong. And the they will. It's simply not worth having good Briere for 4 years and then bad Briere for 4 more, as an example. This is something that paul holmgren has failed at. I don't know if the cause is really #1 or #2, but when you do good at #1 you aren't pressured to screw up in #2.

In retrospect, theres alot of signings and trades that really did not have a long term view in mind.

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03-28-2013, 12:03 PM
  #40
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I think I've agreed with every reason given here. There isn't disagreement, there's just agreeing to a lesser extent.

So basically...everything has happened. Every damned thing that could happen, did happen. You've got large scale GM and owner stuff finally coming to a head, down to individual players having whatever issues they're having. Coaching issues. Coach and GM not on same page. Weak goaltending, no backup. Sophomore slumps. A bizarre schedule after no training camp. All of the injuries. No cap space or assets worth trading to fix things. A terrible offseason that brought change without any immediate improvement for the 3rd year in a row. A GM without any semblance of a long term plan, or hell..any plan at all.

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03-28-2013, 12:04 PM
  #41
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I still think that this team is doomed by it's own success from last season. Everyone, including the flyers front office, was expecting a season of growing pains with ups and downs, which never came.

We see those ups and downs with most of the players this season. Almost every player has had a stretch or two (3-5 games in a row) were they played very well this season. But the consistency just isnt there yet, which happens with a young team. Too often only a few players were playing well at a given time. Good teams get everyone playing their top level at the same time. This is were veteran leadership from players like pronger and jagr is sorely missed.

I just want the flyers to give these players a chance to develop. I am tired of them giving up on young players who under achieving in managment's eyes get traded for next to nothing...

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03-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #42
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Also, there is an issue in the room. Kimmo and Simmonds both ripped the players the other day and said players aren't prepared. Who are they talking about? That is the question.

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03-28-2013, 01:12 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
In my opinion, 2 main things

1. Lack of truly developing our own players is coming back to bite us hard. We are letting too many players develop at the NHL level. We don't have any mid level players stepping in that can be effective now on cheap contracts.

2. Players in the primes/veterans not living up to their contracts. In my opinion, this is both a cause and a result of point 1. We've traded away the youth and picks we needed to develop for players in or after their primes, which CAN be OK. But we've got little to show for that. Carle walked, Pronger got injured, Mezsaros is always injured and/or is not that good. We re-signed Coburn and Hartnell and they are not performing to their pay.

Then you move onto the UFA signings like Briere and Bryzgalov. In my opinion the monster contracts like these need to never be signed again unless it's a total no brainer. Even talbot to an extent, big length and probably a number against the cap higher than what he brings.

The UFA market has burned us and swallowed up dead cap space. I think a much better strategy is to use the UFA market to augment holes in your lineup with mid level guys. The demand pressures and fact that these guys are all in or exiting their primes mean these are generally bad value.

Building a good team under the cap is all about allocating your resources (cap space) approriately not only by position and age but also to retain flexibility when things go wrong. And the they will. It's simply not worth having good Briere for 4 years and then bad Briere for 4 more, as an example. This is something that paul holmgren has failed at. I don't know if the cause is really #1 or #2, but when you do good at #1 you aren't pressured to screw up in #2.

In retrospect, theres alot of signings and trades that really did not have a long term view in mind.
The signing of guys to monster contracts like that, especially Bryz goes hand in hand with not developing talent well enough. Especially in terms of goalies and defenseman. Since we can't bring out own along we don't get young developing players on decent contracts, and we have to sign guys to huge contracts to get them to fill holes that the team is unable to fill trough drafting and development.

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03-28-2013, 01:20 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatthef View Post
The signing of guys to monster contracts like that, especially Bryz goes hand in hand with not developing talent well enough. Especially in terms of goalies and defenseman. Since we can't bring out own along we don't get young developing players on decent contracts, and we have to sign guys to huge contracts to get them to fill holes that the team is unable to fill trough drafting and development.
Then, when you run out of cap space and still have holes to fill, but no players in the system to call up, you have to start trading major pieces.

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03-28-2013, 01:50 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
In my opinion, 2 main things

1. Lack of truly developing our own players is coming back to bite us hard. We are letting too many players develop at the NHL level. We don't have any mid level players stepping in that can be effective now on cheap contracts.

2. Players in the primes/veterans not living up to their contracts. In my opinion, this is both a cause and a result of point 1. We've traded away the youth and picks we needed to develop for players in or after their primes, which CAN be OK. But we've got little to show for that. Carle walked, Pronger got injured, Mezsaros is always injured and/or is not that good. We re-signed Coburn and Hartnell and they are not performing to their pay.

Then you move onto the UFA signings like Briere and Bryzgalov. In my opinion the monster contracts like these need to never be signed again unless it's a total no brainer. Even talbot to an extent, big length and probably a number against the cap higher than what he brings.

The UFA market has burned us and swallowed up dead cap space. I think a much better strategy is to use the UFA market to augment holes in your lineup with mid level guys. The demand pressures and fact that these guys are all in or exiting their primes mean these are generally bad value.

Building a good team under the cap is all about allocating your resources (cap space) approriately not only by position and age but also to retain flexibility when things go wrong. And the they will. It's simply not worth having good Briere for 4 years and then bad Briere for 4 more, as an example. This is something that paul holmgren has failed at. I don't know if the cause is really #1 or #2, but when you do good at #1 you aren't pressured to screw up in #2.

In retrospect, theres alot of signings and trades that really did not have a long term view in mind.
Well put and essentially what I've been saying- no forward thinking in the way of a long term plan. Draft well and then get rid of them because......? And don't for one minute think the 4 assets received for Carter and Richards will still be here in, oh maybe 2 years time.

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03-28-2013, 02:12 PM
  #46
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Grossman, Voracek, B Schenn, Simmonds and Couturier will all be traded two years from now?

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03-28-2013, 02:30 PM
  #47
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Grossman, Voracek, B Schenn, Simmonds and Couturier will all be traded two years from now?
Yeah, people are getting way too carried away based on the Richards and Carter trades. It's not like those guys were here for 6 seasons or anything. Homer trades everyone immediately!!!!!

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:31 PM
  #48
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Grossman, Voracek, B Schenn, Simmonds and Couturier will all be traded two years from now?
Not all. But I expect Grossmann to be gone two years from now and probably at least one of the others. I doubt all of them will be gone though.

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03-28-2013, 03:33 PM
  #49
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Agree with the previous posters who mentioned the Carter and Richards trades and general reshaping of the roster. Pronger got hurt, Briere and Kimmo have gotten older, some guys who enjoyed career years last year are returning to their norms, the personnel isn't a great fit for the coach's system.

Management continues to show little to no patience, which lead to trading Bob and bringing in Bryz, but they really have no choice but to be patient now since they traded a couple all-star caliber players in their primes for teenagers and other young forwards. The future could be bright if they develop their young players and add some things to the mix, and that's where we have to look to- the future.

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03-28-2013, 03:36 PM
  #50
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Yeah, people are getting way too carried away based on the Richards and Carter trades. It's not like those guys were here for 6 seasons or anything. Homer trades everyone immediately!!!!!
Richards and Carter were once part of a young, promising core similar to the one we have now- it wasn't just them. Remember Upshall, Lupul, and Umberger? Our roster is going to continue to have turnover because that's what Holmgren does. He won't leave it alone for long.

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