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Old
03-28-2013, 02:03 PM
  #76
uiCk
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Originally Posted by andy28 View Post
There has got to be some middle ground between standing pat and mortgaging the future. I would not want to go all in right now on a big trade, but there must be something we can do to help improve this squad right now and fill some holes. Guys like Gallagher are fighting hard and management should give them something.
yea the middle ground is ryder trade, picking up halpern and most likely MB will get some *veteran* D depth (trading a 2nd type scenario).

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:20 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Yes. 2007-08, aka the Kovalev was a monster, the PP was ridiculous and we had incredible health year.

And Waddell explained how it all went down with the Hossa trade that day: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3946240
That hurts.

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:27 PM
  #78
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
We definetly had a shot that year. Did the team have flaws absolutely but you don't have to be perfect to win. All it takes is a certain level of talent (Which we had) and then getting hot/lucky at the right time(s).
Getting lucky is not something you can plan for. "Serious damage" in the playoffs means zero unless you win a cup as far as giving up prospects is concerned. Hossa was a pure rental so I would've been super pissed off giving up any of those three without winning a cup. And I don't think Hossa would've given us one. He didn't manage to win one even with Crosby at his side.

What do you mean by serious damage? Is it a 2nd round or 3rd round exit? Is it losing in the finals? Seriously man, if you don't win a cup then the move is brutal.
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Also we ended up losing one of those 3 top prospects anyways for little return, it hasn't crippled us. Had we given McDo up to get a Hossa or Sundin and then done serious damage in the playoffs it's hard to say we would've regretted it.
It's easy to say this now because we wasted McD elsewhere. What if it had been PK or Max? Would it have been worth it?

No.

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:40 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Getting lucky is not something you can plan for. "Serious damage" in the playoffs means zero unless you win a cup as far as giving up prospects is concerned. Hossa was a pure rental so I would've been super pissed off giving up any of those three without winning a cup. And I don't think Hossa would've given us one. He didn't manage to win one even with Crosby at his side.

What do you mean by serious damage? Is it a 2nd round or 3rd round exit? Is it losing in the finals? Seriously man, if you don't win a cup then the move is brutal.

It's easy to say this now because we wasted McD elsewhere. What if it had been PK or Max? Would it have been worth it?

No.
You can't plan on luck but every team that wins the cup needs it. All you can do as GM is build a team that can take advantage of that luck when it happens to win it all. We had a lot of things going right that year, a little boost here or there could've turned that into a cup.

How you can claim playoff experience has no value.

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:42 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
yea the middle ground is ryder trade, picking up halpern and most likely MB will get some *veteran* D depth (trading a 2nd type scenario).
I would be happy if we could pick up a reliable, tough d-man who could clear the crease. And maybe a good third or fourth liner.

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:52 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
You can't plan on luck but every team that wins the cup needs it. All you can do as GM is build a team that can take advantage of that luck when it happens to win it all. We had a lot of things going right that year, a little boost here or there could've turned that into a cup.

How you can claim playoff experience has no value.
It has value. I just wouldn't have wanted to pay PK Subban or Max to get it.

Teams would want Beaulieu or Tinordi now... I don't think it makes sense to give those guys up. I also wouldn't want to give up picks in this draft. If anything I'd rather that we try to move up with our extra 2nds.

Unlike that 08 team this club is on the upside. This isn't our "one shot" and we shouldn't approach this deadline like it is. Let the team play, see how we do at the draft and come back next year. If we do well again next season then we can look at being buyers if there's something worthwhile going after. Besides the team has good chemistry now, what's wrong with leaving it alone?

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:53 PM
  #82
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I think what we're seeing is a transformation in the very nature of fandom where the intrigue and fascination for the team doesn't just lie with following the team, cheering them with friends, and being happy when they win. These days, part of the enjoyment derives from being proxy general managers -- anticipating trades, analyzing draft picks, following the farm team, and basically following the "process" of the team as much as the fact of winning.

I've been a fan for thirty years now and I can say that when trades happened in the past, they were kind of out of the blue, and the criteria for assessing them was far different. There wasn't this media apparatus that exists today that's pretty much seamlessly integrated with fan writing or journalism. There's wasn't as much analysis of statistics as a source of enjoyment, at least as much as there was in baseball. Granted, the salary cap changed the nature of following the team.

All this to say, that twenty years ago, if the Habs were in the position they're in now, there would be no question about the objective for this year. It would be the Stanley Cup or bust. And everything would be mobilized accordingly. We're number two in the conference folks. There's hardly ever a "right time" to win the cup. This windows opens and closes in ways that are difficult to predict.

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:53 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by andy28 View Post
I would be happy if we could pick up a reliable, tough d-man who could clear the crease. And maybe a good third or fourth liner.
Sure, something cheap that isn't going to cost much. A depth player or something. The Halpern move was great... cost us nothing.

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:55 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
I think what we're seeing is a transformation in the very nature of fandom where the intrigue and fascination for the team doesn't just lie with following the team, cheering them with friends, and being happy when they win. These days, part of the enjoyment derives from being proxy general managers -- anticipating trades, analyzing draft picks, following the farm team, and basically following the "process" of the team as much as the fact of winning.

I've been a fan for thirty years now and I can say that when trades happened in the past, they were kind of out of the blue, and the criteria for assessing them was far different. There wasn't this media apparatus that exists today that's pretty much seamlessly integrated with fan writing or journalism. There's wasn't as much analysis of statistics as a source of enjoyment, at least as much as there was in baseball. Granted, the salary cap changed the nature of following the team.

All this to say, that twenty years ago, if the Habs were in the position they're in now, there would be no question about the objective for this year. It would be the Stanley Cup or bust. And everything would be mobilized accordingly. We're number two in the conference folks. There's hardly ever a "right time" to win the cup. This windows open and close in ways that are difficult to predict.
We weren't a big deadline type deal team back then either. We were always conservative about things. We had a big move on Chelios and we regretted that one (though we won a cup so it wasn't that horrible) and that's about it.

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:56 PM
  #85
SouthernHab
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Two trades is all this team needs

Eller and Cole's 3rd round pick for Clowe.

Pateryn and a 2nd rounder for Smid.

Pleks line stays the same.
Desharnais line stays the same.
Halpern centers Chuckie and Prust (would be a fantastic shutdown line with high potential to score)
Dumont centers Clowe and Moen/Armstrong.

Smid sends Tinordi to press box.

Skill, size and toughness increase and the future is not mortgaged as we make a deep run for the Cup.

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:59 PM
  #86
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And to not offend the Eller fans, Dumont could be offered with a 2nd for Clowe and move Halpern down to the 4th

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:01 PM
  #87
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Eller is three times the player Clowe is the guy hasn't scored a goal yet this year, get real

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:03 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Two trades is all this team needs

Eller and Cole's 3rd round pick for Clowe.

Pateryn and a 2nd rounder for Smid.

Pleks line stays the same.
Desharnais line stays the same.
Halpern centers Chuckie and Prust (would be a fantastic shutdown line with high potential to score)
Dumont centers Clowe and Moen/Armstrong.

Smid sends Tinordi to press box.

Skill, size and toughness increase and the future is not mortgaged as we make a deep run for the Cup.
Have you even seen Clowe play this year? I would never give up Eller for a guy like Clowe right now. Not only does Eller have more points and goals than Clowe for WAY cheaper, Eller looks like he's becoming a very decent nhler.

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:04 PM
  #89
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Two trades is all this team needs

Eller and Cole's 3rd round pick for Clowe.

Pateryn and a 2nd rounder for Smid.

Pleks line stays the same.
Desharnais line stays the same.
Halpern centers Chuckie and Prust (would be a fantastic shutdown line with high potential to score)
Dumont centers Clowe and Moen/Armstrong.

Smid sends Tinordi to press box.

Skill, size and toughness increase and the future is not mortgaged as we make a deep run for the Cup.
No thanks, if we're going to deal Eller I'd prefer it be for somebody who's scored a goal this year.

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:07 PM
  #90
xposbrad
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
No thanks, if we're going to deal Eller I'd prefer it be for somebody who's scored a goal this year.
Why, with Clowe's current pace, he's on track for how many, after 26gp?

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:08 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by The Doors View Post
Eller is three times the player Clowe is the guy hasn't scored a goal yet this year, get real
Don't think that San Jose would agree with that assessment. But we could offer a straight up deal.

We have a nice surplus of centers and Chuckie should be ready next year on the 3rd and Dumont has shown he could handle things on the 4th. And we could keep the cheap Halpern around for one more season.

Chuckie isn't potting goals with Eller as C. We need his offensive output. Prust will help that and either Eller or Dumont can be expendable this season and easily replaced moving forward

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:09 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by xposbrad View Post
Have you even seen Clowe play this year? I would never give up Eller for a guy like Clowe right now. Not only does Eller have more points and goals than Clowe for WAY cheaper, Eller looks like he's becoming a very decent nhler.
Clowe brings an element sorely missing on this team. He would not be the go to guy when it comes to scoring goals.

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:11 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Two trades is all this team needs

Eller and Cole's 3rd round pick for Clowe.

Pateryn and a 2nd rounder for Smid.

Pleks line stays the same.
Desharnais line stays the same.
Halpern centers Chuckie and Prust (would be a fantastic shutdown line with high potential to score)
Dumont centers Clowe and Moen/Armstrong.

Smid sends Tinordi to press box.

Skill, size and toughness increase and the future is not mortgaged as we make a deep run for the Cup.
Trade Eller for a rental? You obviously have no idea what you a talking about.

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:11 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Two trades is all this team needs

Eller and Cole's 3rd round pick for Clowe.

Pateryn and a 2nd rounder for Smid.

Pleks line stays the same.
Desharnais line stays the same.
Halpern centers Chuckie and Prust (would be a fantastic shutdown line with high potential to score)
Dumont centers Clowe and Moen/Armstrong.

Smid sends Tinordi to press box.

Skill, size and toughness increase and the future is not mortgaged as we make a deep run for the Cup.
Eller for Clowe, are you F...ing serious???

That's a horrible trade. Eller has made nice strides the last 2 years, big center with skill and an edge. I'm sure we can get a lot more thgan a rental with 0 goals for him. Brutal!

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:13 PM
  #95
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Eller has way more value than Clowe does IMO.

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:14 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Two trades is all this team needs

Eller and Cole's 3rd round pick for Clowe.

Pateryn and a 2nd rounder for Smid.

Pleks line stays the same.
Desharnais line stays the same.
Halpern centers Chuckie and Prust (would be a fantastic shutdown line with high potential to score)
Dumont centers Clowe and Moen/Armstrong.

Smid sends Tinordi to press box.

Skill, size and toughness increase and the future is not mortgaged as we make a deep run for the Cup.
I guess trolling Flames fans that Clowe can fetch better returns than Iginla is the #1 priority. Galchenyuk for Thornton too while we're at it?

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:21 PM
  #97
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If Clowe was on our team, playing as crappy as he was, we would have wanted him traded for anything. Yet, some of our fans, would give up a high ceiling player like Eller for him? lol

Physical play helps, but it's not really going to win you many games. You swap Clowe for Eller, then this team is weaker up front scoring wise. Last I checked, you had to put the puck in the net to win games.

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:23 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It has value. I just wouldn't have wanted to pay PK Subban or Max to get it.

Teams would want Beaulieu or Tinordi now... I don't think it makes sense to give those guys up. I also wouldn't want to give up picks in this draft. If anything I'd rather that we try to move up with our extra 2nds.

Unlike that 08 team this club is on the upside. This isn't our "one shot" and we shouldn't approach this deadline like it is. Let the team play, see how we do at the draft and come back next year. If we do well again next season then we can look at being buyers if there's something worthwhile going after. Besides the team has good chemistry now, what's wrong with leaving it alone?
In 08 we had a 24 year old Plekanec who just broke out with 69 points and was a great 2-way player. Kostitsyn had his first full season and at 22 put up 53pts. Higgins was 24 and had 52pts and was great 2-way player. Komisarek was 25 and was looking like one of if not the best shutdown D in the league. We had a couple of 20 year olds in Latendresse and S. Kostitsyn that looked like future top-6 players. Not too mention some great looking up and coming role players like Lapierre, Chipchura, O'Byrne. Oh and Price was the next Roy/Broduer and Markov was in his prime.

The only important older players were Kovalev(34), Koivu(32), Hamrlik(33).

We were considered a great young team that was going to be contending for a while. Maybe if we had gone deep, the young players would have learnt what it takes to win and not fizzled out like they did. There's no way to know for sure, but that's the OPs point, the future was rosy back then but in the end we only had the one year where we had a good chance. The same could happen again now.

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Old
03-28-2013, 03:34 PM
  #99
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Lets be realistic

I've been reading these threads of ppl saying this the year lets give up prospects and over pay for guys like clowe, lets be honest here do I think clowe can help this team sure I do and so does 90 percent of habs fan but to give more than a 2 rounder for him is way overpriced and I'm even pushing it with a second.hell play the 4 line and maybe move up to the third with injuries because I think prust is the third liner with chucky and Eller do u guys really want to give a second rounder or more for a fourth liner I don't think so not to mention he plays on a pretty talented team and how many times has he found the back of net.I agree Bergervin will make a trade or two maybe a defenseman and a another depth forward maybe but don't expect all these names everyone's talking about.
And if we really want a Ryan clowe player y not go get a guy like Ott who actual scores some goals plays physical and is not afraid to drop them. I personally think Ott would be a better pick up than clowe.

And just to clear things I do think Ott will have the same asking price as clowe but I just think Ott would be a better fit but were going to over pay for both. Clowe is worth a third rounder nothing more but I'm willing to leave with a second but unthinkable more same for Ott.

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03-28-2013, 04:01 PM
  #100
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I've never seen a guy score with his gloves and stick on the ice.

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