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Old
03-28-2013, 01:08 PM
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i say the cap hit has no bearing on whether or not a shot that goes in is a "bad goal"

as in: "a goalie getting paid xxx has to shop that stop" [meaning it was stoppable.

but: "it's ok he let in that same goal, he only makes 200,000 a year"

no, it doesn't work like that when i access why a goal is scored.

i only go by the "on the ice" aspect. i don't say "it's ok for a low paid goalie to let that it, but not a highly paid goalie"
because hes getting paid to be the no. 1 goalie. He is expected to make a save when asked to. Its just like with Danny Briere. Hes getting paid 6 money but this year hes playing like a 4th line winger. Neither is good enough.
So yes the cap hit on any position on the team does matter. You are getting paid to do a job. Is everything Bryzgalov's fault this year? nope. But hes been part of the problem this year looking at the big picture. I am not going to get into certain parts of the season where he was really good and others when he hasn't been.
Like many players on this team he hasn't played good enough.

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03-28-2013, 01:13 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
because hes getting paid to be the no. 1 goalie. He is expected to make a save when asked to. Its just like with Danny Briere. Hes getting paid 6 money but this year hes playing like a 4th line winger. Neither is good enough.
So yes the cap hit on any position on the team does matter. You are getting paid to do a job. Is everything Bryzgalov's fault this year? nope. But hes been part of the problem this year looking at the big picture. I am not going to get into certain parts of the season where he was really good and others when he hasn't been.
Like many players on this team he hasn't played good enough.
And (obviously) it matters to his teammates. If the team's best paid forwards (paid what they are because how they performed in the past) are not playing well, it brings everyone on the team's confidence down that they can win and affects their game. Is that any different with a goalie? Of course not. This thread is getting so old. It is like arguing 2+2=4 to someone convinced it equals 5.

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03-28-2013, 01:23 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
It is like arguing 2+2=4 to someone convinced it equals 5.
Tell Barry Hanrahan that...


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03-28-2013, 01:40 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So you divorce yourself from reality to ignore the impact he has on the team with his contract compared to actual performance.

Because otherwise, the sheer amount of goals he lets in compared to his cap hit would be inconvenient and make him look bad, I guess.
its alright to have an opinion of the cap hit as a side note to whether the team's deficiencies in other areas are being sacrificed due to it. but yes, you should always judge a goalies performance based on what you perceive the difficulty of the shot allowed is. if he let in shot after shot from the blue line, that would suck.

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03-28-2013, 04:42 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
So yes the cap hit on any position on the team does matter.
it does not come into play when I determine who is a fault when a puck goes in our net.

i don't have a varying scale of "bad goal, not the goalie's fault" based on dollar bills.

you can if you like, i respect your right do.

as you should respect my right not to.

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03-28-2013, 04:43 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
if he let in shot after shot from the blue line, that would suck.
unless he has a VERY low cap hit, then it would be ok

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03-28-2013, 04:50 PM
  #607
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Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull 18s
#Flyers have allowed fifth-most goals per game in NHL (3.1) despite allowing the 8th-fewest shots per game (27.5).

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03-28-2013, 04:53 PM
  #608
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I brought up Brodeur as an example of a great goaltender. But I get tired of hearing about NJ great defensive scheme. Brodeur IS the defensive scheme, the way he handles the puck, passes it, stops it behind the net, and passes it forward. He makes his defense look like all stars. He's had so many defense men in front of him change over the years yet they all end up looking great. My point was that Bryz makes his defensemen look inept.

Guys are saying even if we are going to dump him let him continue to play until we find someone different. Big mistake, he is ruining the players around him.

Maybe I'm Old Time but I don't believe we should tank the season for a couple of reasons. It sends a bad message to the players, we probably won't get the number 1 pick overall (remember JVR?) and I think we should pull Bryz now and get ready for life after Bryz.

If were going to get a young goalie to bring in or bring up we are still going to need a veteran presence. Let's warm someone up to the task.

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03-28-2013, 04:54 PM
  #609
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My two cents:

I am a fan of Bryz as a person and his personality. I like the guy and I want him to succeed, whether its in Philly or anywhere else. I'm not gonna sit here and defer blame away from the guy cause he hasn't played well at all, but just watching this team and the way they play, I don't think there are many goalies, if any at all, that can play well behind this current flyers team. This team struggles so bad when it comes to even the simple things like clearing the puck, getting it through the neutral zone, not turning it over constantly. I don't know whether it's the system, the players, or they are just tryin to play a system that doesn't play into their strengths and glares their weaknesses (most likely the latter). The system lavy employed consisting of a hard aggressive forcheck and active d-men is gone. They have no viable PMDs other than an aging Kimmo and to an extent an inexperienced Gus. Bryz isn't the one who's turning it over constantly, giving opponents prime scoring chances. This team gives up WAY too many good, prime scoring chances. They give up too many odd man rushes and break aways also, and that has nothin to do with bryz. Now I'm not trying to make excuses for him because he has played poorly on his end and I don't know how anyone can deny that. I'm just saying I think too many people think a different goalie will result in less goals allowed and better defense. Hate to break it to you but it won't.

I like the guy and I want him to succeed here, but I just don't think it can happen. I think bryz can be more successful on another team that he fits in better. He needs a team that is built to mask his weaknesses, and unless we completely gut the roster inside out I don't think that team is the flyers. I think he can be a serviceable goalie if he had a decent contract, but think about the later years in his contract. I don't a 36-39 year old bryz and a 5.7 cap hit is reasonable at all, in fact I think it's a detriment to a cup contending team in the salary cap world. I think flyers should part ways with an amnesty in the 2014 offseason. He's just not working out for this team, which is unfortunate cause I really like the guy. If that is what ends up happening I hope he's successful wherever he ends up, except if he goes to Pittsburgh

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03-28-2013, 05:00 PM
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
.... despite allowing the 8th-fewest shots per game (27.5).
a shot from the opponent's blue line on net = 1 SOG

a breakaway, or the slam dunk NYR pulled off 2 nights ago by undressing our Team so-called "D" = 1 SOG


this team needs to
1. hustle for 60 minutes every game
2. play more sound defensively

regardless of who is in net.

anybody denying that is delusional.

period.

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03-28-2013, 05:08 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Bleed orange View Post

I don't think there are many goalies, if any at all, that can play well behind this current flyers team. This team struggles so bad when it comes to even the simple things like clearing the puck, getting it through the neutral zone, not turning it over constantly. I don't know whether it's the system, the players, or they are just tryin to play a system that doesn't play into their strengths and glares their weaknesses (most likely the latter). The system lavy employed consisting of a hard aggressive forcheck and active d-men is gone. They have no viable PMDs other than an aging Kimmo and to an extent an inexperienced Gus. Bryz isn't the one who's turning it over constantly, giving opponents prime scoring chances. This team gives up WAY too many good, prime scoring chances. They give up too many odd man rushes and break aways also, and that has nothin to do with bryz.

I'm just saying I think too many people think a different goalie will result in less goals allowed and better defense. Hate to break it to you but it won't.
all of the above are reasons to change the system / play tighter D like they did vs Pitt 2 games ago, not get another goalie. [especially the parts in red]

they CAN play better D, without gutting the roster.
i saw it last March, when we were winning & i saw it vs Pitt in a 2-1 loss.

Bryz looked just fine in March & vs Pitt. NO reason the Flyers curently on the roster can't be more responsible defensively & HUSTLE for a FULL frickin 60 minutes !!!

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03-28-2013, 05:15 PM
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
a shot from the opponent's blue line on net = 1 SOG

a breakaway, or the slam dunk NYR pulled off 2 nights ago by undressing our Team so-called "D" = 1 SOG


this team needs to
1. hustle for 60 minutes every game
2. play more sound defensively

regardless of who is in net.

anybody denying that is delusional.

period.
Nobody is denying that



Are there people saying they should play 30 minutes and be worse defensively?

Here's a simple fact you repeatedly fail to address, likely because you have no rebuttal. Edmonton is far worse defensively than the Flyers. They're awful. Dubnyk's stats blow Bryz out of the water.

How do you account for that?

Bryzgalov's save percentage is miserable. It's not like every single shot on goal is one of those slam dunk plays, like you referred to. He's just not been good at stopping the puck. That's all there is to it. He routinely fails to make saves other goalies do make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
all of the above are reasons to change the system / play tighter D like they did vs Pitt 2 games ago, not get another goalie. [especially the parts in red]

they CAN play better D, without gutting the roster.
i saw it last March, when we were winning & i saw it vs Pitt in a 2-1 loss.

Bryz looked just fine in March & vs Pitt. NO reason the Flyers curently on the roster can't be more responsible defensively & HUSTLE for a FULL frickin 60 minutes !!!
They CAN play better D, but they don't have the skill to generate offense as well in the process. They just get trapped in their own end. These aren't two way players like we used to have. Gagne has returned but he's nowhere near what he once was. Richards and Carter are gone. Giroux, and Voracek just aren't as good in that respect.

You can keep pretending that doesn't matter, but it does. They can't just magically be better at defense, no more than Bryz can magically be better at stopping pucks. Putting this team in a defensive shell like they did against Pitt and NYR did nothing but trap them even deeper in their own end because they weren't pushing as hard to generate offense.

The team looked worse in those two games than they did when they were trying to play to their strengths. It kinda shoots your theory down.

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03-28-2013, 05:16 PM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
a shot from the opponent's blue line on net = 1 SOG

a breakaway, or the slam dunk NYR pulled off 2 nights ago by undressing our Team so-called "D" = 1 SOG


this team needs to
1. hustle for 60 minutes every game
2. play more sound defensively

regardless of who is in net.

anybody denying that is delusional.

period.
Bryz has let his fair share of them into the back of the net too.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 03-28-2013 at 05:24 PM.
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03-28-2013, 05:19 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Nobody is denying that



Are there people saying they should play 30 minutes and be worse defensively?

Here's a simple fact you repeatedly fail to address, likely because you have no rebuttal. Edmonton is far worse defensively than the Flyers. They're awful. Dubnyk's stats blow Bryz out of the water.

How do you account for that?

Bryzgalov's save percentage is miserable. It's not like every single shot on goal is one of those slam dunk plays, like you referred to. He's just not been good at stopping the puck. That's all there is to it. He routinely fails to make saves other goalies do make.



They CAN play better D, but they don't have the skill to generate offense as well in the process. They just get trapped in their own end. These aren't two way players like we used to have. Gagne has returned but he's nowhere near what he once was. Richards and Carter are gone. Giroux, and Voracek just aren't as good in that respect.

You can keep pretending that doesn't matter, but it does. Putting this team in a defensive shell like they did against Pitt and NYR did nothing but trap them even deeper in their own end because they weren't pushing as hard to generate offense.

The team looked worse in those two games than they did when they were trying to play to their strengths. It kinda shoots your theory down.
The inability to get out of our zone cleanly has a lot more to do with the defense than it does the forwards. The other team knows that they can just collapse down on our wingers because the defenseman don't have the ability to adjust and beat their aggressiveness, or skate the puck out of the zone.

The forwards have not had much trouble getting through the neutral zone if the defense can get it out of the d zone cleanly.

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03-28-2013, 05:25 PM
  #615
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The inability to get out of our zone cleanly has a lot more to do with the defense than it does the forwards. The other team knows that they can just collapse down on our wingers because the defenseman don't have the ability to adjust and beat their aggressiveness, or skate the puck out of the zone.
The forwards often make un-pressured mistakes or simply skate directly into opposing players as well, though. Our forwards were pressured in the past as well, but they didn't crumble like they have this year. For one thing, none of them are supporting each other...it's often one man against two or three while a couple Flyers watch and see where the puck will go.

Even when the defense gives them the puck and they have space, the second they make that second pass to someone in the neutral zone it's almost always the same thing...they give it to someone along the boards who has nowhere to go. They haven't adjusted to that or changed anything all year. I don't see how adding Carle or some other PMD would change that. They'd make the pass, and then the problems with the offense would just continue. They'd still be predictable and easy to defend.

Even on defensive plays near the blue line where the defensemen aren't involved, it's generally pretty likely the fowards will struggle all on their own getting it clear or getting through the neutral zone.

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03-28-2013, 05:26 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
all of the above are reasons to change the system / play tighter D like they did vs Pitt 2 games ago, not get another goalie. [especially the parts in red]

they CAN play better D, without gutting the roster.
i saw it last March, when we were winning & i saw it vs Pitt in a 2-1 loss.

Bryz looked just fine in March & vs Pitt. NO reason the Flyers curently on the roster can't be more responsible defensively & HUSTLE for a FULL frickin 60 minutes !!!
That's the thing, they played well enough that 1 game the other night, but I don't think they can play that style for an entire season and have success, or even consistency for that matter. The forwards not the d men on this team are built to play a rangers type system

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03-28-2013, 05:34 PM
  #617
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The forwards often make un-pressured mistakes or simply skate directly into opposing players as well, though. Our forwards were pressured in the past as well, but they didn't crumble like they have this year. For one thing, none of them are supporting each other...it's often one man against two or three while a couple Flyers watch and see where the puck will go.

Even when the defense gives them the puck and they have space, the second they make that second pass to someone in the neutral zone it's almost always the same thing...they give it to someone along the boards who has nowhere to go. They haven't adjusted to that or changed anything all year. I don't see how adding Carle or some other PMD would change that. They'd make the pass, and then the problems with the offense would just continue. They'd still be predictable and easy to defend.

Even on defensive plays near the blue line where the defensemen aren't involved, it's generally pretty likely the fowards will struggle all on their own getting it clear or getting through the neutral zone.
I'll have to pay closer attention to it, but I don't think the forwards are that bad. The wingers on the wall are almost always put in a no-win situation because the defense can only make that pass. Because of that, the other team knows to collapse on those spots and take that time away. If the defense could find a way to occasionally skate it out or find the cutting center behind the collapsing players, the wingers on the wall would have more time to work with because the opposing team would be forced to play less aggressive.

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03-28-2013, 05:36 PM
  #618
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This team is in limbo. They can't play Lavi's forechecking, puck control system because the defensemen mostly don't have what it takes to be active or aggressive offensively. The goalie isn't good enough to cover for this, so goals go in.

On the other hand, the forwards aren't suited for an NYR type system at all. They get abused, the goalie isn't good enough to cover for it, so pucks go in.

The team as it's constructed doesn't make sense.

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03-28-2013, 05:39 PM
  #619
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I'll have to pay closer attention to it, but I don't think the forwards are that bad. The wingers on the wall are almost always put in a no-win situation because the defense can only make that pass. Because of that, the other team knows to collapse on those spots and take that time away. If the defense could find a way to occasionally skate it out or find the cutting center behind the collapsing players, the wingers on the wall would have more time to work with because the opposing team would be forced to play less aggressive.
Yeah, check it out. Don't get me wrong, this defense isn't incredible at moving the puck themselves, but the forward group shares a whole lot of blame. The defense often gets them the puck without issue, and then their choices afterwards are usually fruitless. It probably comes down to the coach for not finding a different way to do business.

In general, their play along the boards in all 3 zones sucks.

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03-28-2013, 05:43 PM
  #620
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That's the thing, they played well enough that 1 game the other night, but I don't think they can play that style for an entire season and have success, or even consistency for that matter. The forwards not the d men on this team are built to play a rangers type system
well, seeing you say "I don't think there are many goalies, if any at all, that can play well behind this current flyers team" tells me that another goalie [the 20th in 22 years ??] isn't gonna make the difference.

dump Danny & use the money to get a better Defenseman & pick up forwards / D men who are better at team D

Bryz showed what he can do when we play better team D, like most of the successful teams in the NHL do ... so, lets start changing the team to play the style that most successful teams in the NHL do

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03-28-2013, 05:49 PM
  #621
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well, seeing you say "I don't think there are many goalies, if any at all, that can play well behind this current flyers team" tells me that another goalie [the 20th in 22 years ??] isn't gonna make the difference.
This is because you refuse to understand that the salary cap is amazingly important. If Bryz can't succeed, get someone cheaper who is at least equal or better (not a hard feat, considering his performance the last two seasons), and use that money to strengthen the team elsewhere. Since Bryz can't cover the mistakes of an imperfect team, use his cap hit to try and make the team stronger for whoever comes in next.

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03-28-2013, 05:50 PM
  #622
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well, seeing you say "I don't think there are many goalies, if any at all, that can play well behind this current flyers team" tells me that another goalie [the 20th in 22 years ??] isn't gonna make the difference.

dump Danny & use the money to get a better Defenseman & pick up forwards / D men who are better at team D

Bryz showed what he can do when we play better team D, like most of the successful teams in the NHL do ... so, lets start changing the team to play the style that most successful teams in the NHL do
Obviously I'm exaggerating, there are goalies who could at least have respectable numbers behind this team, I just don't think bryz is that goalie. He's not very athletic, nor is he shifty from post to post. He's a goalie who relies on positioning and his size, and even his positioning at times has been shaky. I don't think it's just as easy as a snap of the fingers to just say poof, play better D and it's done... You need good forwards who are smart an responsible defensively, and we don't have many of those... To play a NYR system you also need good forwards in addition to good and smart D that take away shooting lanes and limit the number of quality chances

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03-28-2013, 05:51 PM
  #623
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Yeah, check it out. Don't get me wrong, this defense isn't incredible at moving the puck themselves, but the forward group shares a whole lot of blame. The defense often gets them the puck without issue, and then their choices afterwards are usually fruitless. It probably comes down to the coach for not finding a different way to do business.

In general, their play along the boards in all 3 zones sucks.
Oh I agree to a certain extent about the coaching. Lavy has to find a way to change things up.

I'm not here to completely crap all over the defense either. They're not a bad unit at purely defending. Take for example the penalty kill. We have a top ten unit because these guys don't have to make many decisions once they get the puck on the pk. They can just simply clear it and be done with it. But if you force them to pick their heads up and make a decision with the puck like it is 5 on 5, they struggle and you see turnovers.

I do think the forwards should take some of the blame in the sense that they often get frustrated and stop trying to work the puck out of the zone as a five man unit though. When the breakout starts to breakdown, they'll often just fly the zone and hope for a stretch pass into the neutral zone which only compounds the puck moving issue. There aren't a lot of guys in the league that can consistently make 75-100 foot passes all game, let alone guys like Schenn, Coburn, and Grossman.

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03-28-2013, 05:58 PM
  #624
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He's not very athletic, nor is he shifty from post to post.
i usually watch JUST the goalie on many occasions in a game.

i do not agree with you at all.

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03-28-2013, 06:00 PM
  #625
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i usually watch JUST the goalie on many occasions in a game.

i do not agree with you at all.
Maybe you should watch other goalies for comparison, then.

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