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Old
12-24-2003, 01:05 PM
  #1
Axis
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Matthew Lombardi

He was once Oiler's property. Much like Stoll and the Flames we couldn't get him signed and he went back into the draft and became a Flame.

My question is would you rather have Lombardi or Stoll?

I really losing confidence in this management, are they really good at evaluating talent?

Look in this mornings Edmonton Journal and you'll see Zach Parise in the 10 players to watch for the world juniors. A player the Oilers traded down in the draft in order NOT to pick. Hmmm....

Plus, most of our really good late drafts from the last couple of years are no longer here, e.g. Markkanen, Pisa.

Any thoughts?

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12-24-2003, 01:14 PM
  #2
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we didn't need little forwards like lombardi and Parise because we already have smaillish ones in Horcoff, Reasoner, and York. Not to mention that at those times we still had Comrie.

Also, in the system is Dwight Helminen, Mike Bishai, Chad Hinz, Tony Salmelainen, Peter Sarno...

Why add another little guy?

Besides I wouldn't trade Pouliot and Jacques to Parise staright across would you?

Stoll is going to be a huge part of this team for as long as he is here. Lombardi is a small fast guy but we've got plenty of speed already. One reason he's looking so good in Cowgary is because his speed stands out down there. Here he would just be another Chimera, or York or Dvorak or...

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12-24-2003, 01:59 PM
  #3
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I think a similar question was posted a while back, when both both players were scoring, and I think the concensus was Stoll, with the recent scoring drought the Oilers have I'm going to jump ship and say lombardi...just kiddin .

Stoll will turn out to be a better player then Lombardi.

Lombardi currently has 16pts vs Stoll 7pts, but this is pretty decieving considering lombardi is on the powerplay and plays on the Flames top two lines (lack of talent in the flames roster, with injuries and all), where as Stoll has been placed more of a defensive specialist role playing on a line with not the sharpest shooters in the league. However when Stoll does get an opportunity to score he's going to burry his chances. It all goes back to when Lombardi was in the memorial cup a few years ago and I was excited to watch this guy perform coming off a 130pt season.... Against a tougher checking OHL and WHL team Lombardi didn't seem to be quite as effective...He did however still manage to put up decent points during the memorial cup finals. Lombardi did alright his 1st year in the AHL playing on a weaker StJohn's team and managed to put up 46pts but had a -15 in the plus minus category, Stoll finished w/ 54pts but an impressive +15 playing on the second line. Stoll always manages to find a way to contribute, if its not on the score sheet, it on the PK or checking roll. Lombardi may have a bigger offensive upside (not by much though) but really hasn't proven to be well rounded as Stoll. Stoll also played well in the 2 WJC he played in, and was a spirited leader.

So in short Lombardi will be a good offensive threat but Stoll will deliver a well rounded player who can score and play a defensively sound game as well.

As for Lowe et al. at the draft table... huge improvement over Sather et al. I actually believe Lowe has done quite well during his tenure...either through trade or draft look at the possible future if all the draftees pan out with their potentials:

Ninnimaki (02) - Hemsky (01) - Pouliot (03)
Stoll (02) - Mihkanov (00) - Brodziak (03)
Jakouv (03) - McDonald (03) - Salmelein (01)
Johanson (02) - Storini (03) - Jacques (03)

Lynch (01) - Woywitka (01)
Greene (01) - K.Smith (01)
Svensk (02) - Kolstov (02)

Drouin-Delaurier (02)

Not bad of a roster for prospects drafted/traded by Lowe et al. Now if could only get Ovechkin....

GXL

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Old
12-24-2003, 05:31 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillazXL
I think a similar question was posted a while back, when both both players were scoring, and I think the concensus was Stoll, with the recent scoring drought the Oilers have I'm going to jump ship and say lombardi...just kiddin .

Stoll will turn out to be a better player then Lombardi.

Lombardi currently has 16pts vs Stoll 7pts, but this is pretty decieving considering lombardi is on the powerplay and plays on the Flames top two lines (lack of talent in the flames roster, with injuries and all), where as Stoll has been placed more of a defensive specialist role playing on a line with not the sharpest shooters in the league. However when Stoll does get an opportunity to score he's going to burry his chances. It all goes back to when Lombardi was in the memorial cup a few years ago and I was excited to watch this guy perform coming off a 130pt season.... Against a tougher checking OHL and WHL team Lombardi didn't seem to be quite as effective...He did however still manage to put up decent points during the memorial cup finals. Lombardi did alright his 1st year in the AHL playing on a weaker StJohn's team and managed to put up 46pts but had a -15 in the plus minus category, Stoll finished w/ 54pts but an impressive +15 playing on the second line. Stoll always manages to find a way to contribute, if its not on the score sheet, it on the PK or checking roll. Lombardi may have a bigger offensive upside (not by much though) but really hasn't proven to be well rounded as Stoll. Stoll also played well in the 2 WJC he played in, and was a spirited leader.

So in short Lombardi will be a good offensive threat but Stoll will deliver a well rounded player who can score and play a defensively sound game as well.

As for Lowe et al. at the draft table... huge improvement over Sather et al. I actually believe Lowe has done quite well during his tenure...either through trade or draft look at the possible future if all the draftees pan out with their potentials:

Ninnimaki (02) - Hemsky (01) - Pouliot (03)
Stoll (02) - Mihkanov (00) - Brodziak (03)
Jakouv (03) - McDonald (03) - Salmelein (01)
Johanson (02) - Storini (03) - Jacques (03)

Lynch (01) - Woywitka (01)
Greene (01) - K.Smith (01)
Svensk (02) - Kolstov (02)

Drouin-Delaurier (02)

Not bad of a roster for prospects drafted/traded by Lowe et al. Now if could only get Ovechkin....

GXL
How do you figure Stoll will turn out to be the better player, Lombardi has already proven to be a better player then Stoll so far in the NHL. Take a look at Lombardi's +/- and tell me hes not already a good 2 way player. Lombardi started the year on the 4th line in Calgary and worked his way to where he is today on the top line. I think you underestimate Lombardi's defencive awarness and I would even argue that it's right up there near Stolls. Lombardi is a very usefull player to the Flames as he plays well on the pp, pk and even strength. Ive watched many Flame and Oiler games this year and Lombardi looks a lot more impressive then Stoll.

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Old
12-24-2003, 05:58 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surixon
How do you figure Stoll will turn out to be the better player, .
Because he's an Oilers fan.

Lombardi was not figured to make the team in training camp , he did.
He started on the 4th line and seized the opportunity when others slumped. He is now on the top lines and proving everyday that he can become a top 6 forward in the NHL.

Stoll, on the other hand, has not proven anything more than that he is a 3rd line checking calibre player, even on the slumping Oilers,


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Old
12-24-2003, 06:08 PM
  #6
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I think Stoll is much more of a typical Flames type and Lombardi is much more a typical Oiler type. Anyway, I think they will both turn out to be great players. In Stoll, you can't look at how many points he has compared to Lombardi. I think Lombardi will put up more points, but Stoll will probably be more valuable because of his all around game. In Calgary, we have lots of Stoll types anyway, we could use a few more Lombardi types. Vise Versa for the Oilers.

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Old
12-24-2003, 08:10 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan
Because he's an Oilers fan.

Lombardi was not figured to make the team in training camp , he did.
He started on the 4th line and seized the opportunity when others slumped. He is now on the top lines and proving everyday that he can become a top 6 forward in the NHL.

Stoll, on the other hand, has not proven anything more than that he is a 3rd line checking calibre player, even on the slumping Oilers,
Ryan Smyth hasn't proven anything this year beyond that he's pretty good five on five, so that's a poor argument... unless you think Lombardi is better than him too?

I think the real answer is wait and see where both players are in three or five years.

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12-24-2003, 08:31 PM
  #8
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Stoll or Lombardi... who would I rather have? Stoll, easily. Just like Flames fans will say Lombardi, easily. That's the way the teams went, and so far neither player has done anything to show who will be better.

So yeah, it's too early to tell.

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Old
12-24-2003, 10:04 PM
  #9
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Do you want a potential Mike York (Lombardi) or a potential Dave Scatchard (Stoll). Personally, I like York (Lombardi). Stoll is okay, but Lombardi just has those effortless offensive moves that the Oilers haven't had since Comrie's days before his injury last year.

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12-24-2003, 10:36 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Do you want a potential Mike York (Lombardi) or a potential Dave Scatchard (Stoll). Personally, I like York (Lombardi). Stoll is okay, but Lombardi just has those effortless offensive moves that the Oilers haven't had since Comrie's days before his injury last year.
The key word is potential there.. it is a lot easier for a player to become a capable checking line player (granted not Madden-like) than it is to become a dynamic offensive guy. I've seen Lombardi play and while he has shown quite a bit, I don't think he has "Comrie-like" natural ability.. in any event, we have no room in our lineup for a guy like Lombardi with Dvorak, York, Hemsky etc. already here. On the other hand, Stoll is our Marchant replacement and has looked like he might have future captain potential..

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12-24-2003, 11:20 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin Pad
I think Stoll is much more of a typical Flames type and Lombardi is much more a typical Oiler type. Anyway, I think they will both turn out to be great players. In Stoll, you can't look at how many points he has compared to Lombardi. I think Lombardi will put up more points, but Stoll will probably be more valuable because of his all around game. In Calgary, we have lots of Stoll types anyway, we could use a few more Lombardi types. Vise Versa for the Oilers.
I agree with this point.

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12-24-2003, 11:30 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan
Because he's an Oilers fan.
Thanks for erasing any credibility you may have had with that comment.

I admit I haven't seen much of Lombardi. From what I have seen and know of Lombardi, and what I've seen of Stoll, all stats aside, Stoll is expected to be a future Captain for the Oilers, and he has a terrific shot, while I think Lombardi will be at best a Chimera-type player for his NHL career.

Given a choice I would rather have Stoll, and no, it's not because I'm an Oiler fan.

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12-25-2003, 07:35 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigus
Ryan Smyth hasn't proven anything this year beyond that he's pretty good five on five, so that's a poor argument... unless you think Lombardi is better than him too?

.

Well, Ryan Smyth has several years in NHL experience for you to draw your conclusion on.

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12-25-2003, 07:43 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hemskyfan
Thanks for erasing any credibility you may have had with that comment.

.

How so? The comment was direct to the guy that said Stoll definitely will be better than Lombardi by throwing out some AHL and junior stats.
Many players were stars in the AHL or junior that had never made it to the NHL. Comparision in the NHL so far shows that Lombardi has higher offensive potential while Stoll hasn't shown any.

I would agree with most that it may be too early to tell. But if you want to make an arguement now, Lombardi has shown more this year IN THE NHL where it counts.

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12-25-2003, 07:54 AM
  #15
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Here's my take: as far back as the 2000 draft, I was hoping Jarrett Stoll would be an Oiler. When the Flames drafted him, I felt they got a steal.

When push came to shove, Stoll didn't sign with the Flames because of dollar differences.

Lombardi on the other hand was a late pick, and the Oilers chose not to sign him at all, and I doubt he was asking for first round money. From what has been said since, they simply passed on him.

Which at this point was clearly a mistake. No question about it. Whether Stoll is better than Lombardi isn't the question to ask imo.

The real question is this: Why on earth did Edmonton pass on Lombardi? Unless he was asking for first round money, it was a big mistake.

No matter what size he is.

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12-25-2003, 08:43 AM
  #16
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I will tell you why Lombardi is doing so well and Stoll is a 3rd line checking center, its because if and when MacT actually gives a rookie some ice time he does it for a couple of games and then plays him for 4 minutes a night or he sits in the press box. Other teams let rookies have a decent shot, look at Rita wasting away. There is no way he signs another two way contract after this rookie contract is finished and I would not blame him. Laracque continues to play with the big team, Pisani, although I do not want to criticize him is getting time yet we are starving for goals and the guys who we have in the system who can help and when goiven a chance have shown they can score sit in Toronto. To play on MacT's team you have to prove you can be trusted defensively so we end up with 9 forwards who can backcheck but cant forcheck or score goals and then wonder why Conklin has to have a shutout to give us a chance to tie. Other teams actually try and fit their rookies into the line up focusing on what they can bring to the game instead of turning them into MacT clones first. You gotta let your horses open it up. What can it hurt, we arent winning playing defensive hockey, lets really play run and gun. I can stand for conklins GAA above 3 if we are scoring 4 every night. Right now this team is an embarassment they way it treats its assets that it drafts. There are at least 3 good goal scorers sitting in TO when the likes of Laracque are playing and not doing their jobs.

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12-25-2003, 09:18 AM
  #17
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There is a definate arguement to MacTavish not playing Stoll all that much. But I think Lombardi's accomplishments are more than simple ice time and linemates. He is making plays and finishing them with Iginla & Reinprecht & other players, but more importantly, he is showing he belongs there. Stoll can look like he 'belongs' with Laraque and such on the bottom 6, but I don't think anybody would be so enamoured with him if he was being used as a #1 or #2 centre like Lombardi is being relied upon.

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12-25-2003, 09:21 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
The real question is this: Why on earth did Edmonton pass on Lombardi? Unless he was asking for first round money, it was a big mistake.

No matter what size he is.
I can't provide a source here, but I remember Lombardi saying in an interview that having Edmonton not try to sign him made him realize that he needed to work harder if he was going to make it to the NHL. It sounded like he realized that he wasn't good enough then, and that not signing gave him a kick in the pants, so I think there's a good chance that if Edmonton had signed him, he wouldn't be the player that he is today.

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12-25-2003, 09:40 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan
Well, Ryan Smyth has several years in NHL experience for you to draw your conclusion on.
Shake your head all you like, early in his career it wasn't obvious he'd ever be more than Sergei Berezin or Bryan Savage.

Thanks for proving my point though: we have several years of NHL experience to draw conclusions on about Smyth. We don't for Lombardi and Stoll.

And gee, you found an Oilers fan on... yup, it's still the Oilers boards. What a surprise. I bet if you keep looking, you'll find more.

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12-25-2003, 09:46 AM
  #20
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Personally I would like to have both, but given a choice based on the situation of both teams, I think they both have the player that works for them.

Edmonton needs a replacement for Marchant. Stoll is a very sound two way player. He's got some decent skills, but ecels on the other side of the puck. He's very strong away from the puck. He's a good fit for the Oilers.

Calgary needed a center that had some offensive flair. They had a defensive guy in Blair Betts, so Stoll was redundant. Lombardi provided a potential offensive player and was aguy the Flames thought would be a good pro based on his two way play in the Q. He was a solid fit for the Flames.

I think both teams should be happy. Who will be better? That's going to boil down to who performs best in the role which they cast for their respective team. To date that has been Lombardi. Stoll deserves time as the defensive game is all about learning and anticipation. Stoll has a bright future if his junior and minor league career show anything when it comes to the ability to learn and anticipate. Give it a few years and I think both teams could be happy, or both could be disappointed.

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12-25-2003, 09:53 AM
  #21
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Personally I would like to have both, but given a choice based on the situation of both teams, I think they both have the player that works for them.
agreed. My personal take is that both teams goofed because either one could have both of these guys.

LOWETIDE: I remember reading something earlier that Lombardi wanted 2nd round money, and EDM wasn't prepared to pay it. Turns out to be a mistake, I thought he'd have been asking for more though.

I guess I can't say I'm too mad at the Oilers cause at the time the decision didn't look too bad, but had I known he was asking for 2nd round money, I'd probably have given it to him if I were GM.

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12-25-2003, 10:54 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meanashell11
I will tell you why Lombardi is doing so well and Stoll is a 3rd line checking center, its because if and when MacT actually gives a rookie some ice time he does it for a couple of games and then plays him for 4 minutes a night or he sits in the press box. Other teams let rookies have a decent shot, look at Rita wasting away. There is no way he signs another two way contract after this rookie contract is finished and I would not blame him. Laracque continues to play with the big team, Pisani, although I do not want to criticize him is getting time yet we are starving for goals and the guys who we have in the system who can help and when goiven a chance have shown they can score sit in Toronto. To play on MacT's team you have to prove you can be trusted defensively so we end up with 9 forwards who can backcheck but cant forcheck or score goals and then wonder why Conklin has to have a shutout to give us a chance to tie. Other teams actually try and fit their rookies into the line up focusing on what they can bring to the game instead of turning them into MacT clones first. You gotta let your horses open it up. What can it hurt, we arent winning playing defensive hockey, lets really play run and gun. I can stand for conklins GAA above 3 if we are scoring 4 every night. Right now this team is an embarassment they way it treats its assets that it drafts. There are at least 3 good goal scorers sitting in TO when the likes of Laracque are playing and not doing their jobs.
You start using the enter key, i'll start reading your posts.

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12-25-2003, 11:37 AM
  #23
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Don't know who said it but someone summed up that both players are playing in situations that suit them best. Lombardi is playing on a team that was bereft of any goal scoring going into the season. He knew it, put together a good camp and made the team. Sutter had reason to be patient with the guy because he obviously works hard or he'd get the Robert Dome treatment. While he bided his time he got the confidence to play. Short of the injuries that have rocked the Flames, I don't think the opportunities he's been afforded would have been offered. He might have kicked it on the 4th line and become disinterested and demoted or just lost his confidence offensively and been demoted.

Lombardi may be good, he may put up numbers that are better than Stoll but I think Stoll is going to be a third line impact player championship teams need. Now all we need is a first line impact player and we can start dreaming.

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12-25-2003, 12:20 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco Grande
You start using the enter key, i'll start reading your posts.
I know there's a point in here somewhere. What is it?

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12-25-2003, 09:17 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meanashell11
I know there's a point in here somewhere. What is it?
I'm guessing it's because your post is ridiculously hard and annoying to read when you don't chop it up into paragraphs properly.

Just guessing though.

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