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Is Mario Lemieux a bit overrated?

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03-28-2013, 02:29 PM
  #101
66871
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Originally Posted by Dangler99* View Post
199 points? Ye overated.
Given who he was playing with that year, I think there's a strong argument that Lemieux's 199 is the greatest offensive season by any player. Not saying 66>99. But in terms of a single season, I would be inclined to go with 199 > 215.

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03-28-2013, 03:11 PM
  #102
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Lemieux is the reason I grew up cheering for the Pens, Leafs #1 but the Pens always held a special spot in my heart.

I remember reading stories, of fellow Pens had to tie his skates for him because his back. I always had respect for him for that, I mean think about it, he couldn't tie his skates by himself, yet he made the greatest players in the world look like boys.

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03-28-2013, 03:33 PM
  #103
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Think about it this way. Take the very best attributes from the two best players in the game today (Crosby and Malkin) and you have an absolute beast with every tool you need to succeed in hockey. Crosby's hockey IQ, tenacity, vision, decision and playmaking, snapshot and backhand, skating ability, reflexes, hand-eye, strength and general athleticism, and adaptability. Combined with Malkin's stickhandling, wrist and slap shot, reach, and size.

There's nothing more you can ask more from a combination of Crosby and Malkin. And yet, Lemieux is hands down better than that hybrid in nearly every single aspect.

It's impossible to overrate someone like that.

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03-28-2013, 04:14 PM
  #104
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I put Lemieux squarely on Gretzky's level.

Gretzky was a better playmaker, Mario was a better skill player.

Mario is what happens when Wayne Gretzky decides to get physical.

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03-28-2013, 04:36 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23* View Post
In his 1995-96 and 2000-01 Stats - close to 50% of his total Goals and Assists came from the POWERPLAY - not that impressive when you look at the whole picture.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=4011



If you look in the top ES Goal Scoring Seasons - Lemieux is not even in the top 10.


In fact he has only led the league ONCE in ES GOALS!
I am sure it has been mentioned already but I can't let this comment stand. Of the 11 players that have scored more EV goals the closest to Mario in number of games played is Kurri with 1251 that is 336 more games than Mario or slightly over 4 complete NHL seasons.

If you adjust this list an account for games played I suspect you will find Mario at or near the top of the list. The only ones I took the time to compare were Getz and Hull because they were all dominate at the same time.

Lemieux - .442 EV / game
Gretzky - .414 EV / game
Hull - .359 EV / game

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03-28-2013, 05:28 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
I am sure it has been mentioned already but I can't let this comment stand. Of the 11 players that have scored more EV goals the closest to Mario in number of games played is Kurri with 1251 that is 336 more games than Mario or slightly over 4 complete NHL seasons.

If you adjust this list an account for games played I suspect you will find Mario at or near the top of the list. The only ones I took the time to compare were Getz and Hull because they were all dominate at the same time.

Lemieux - .442 EV / game
Gretzky - .414 EV / game
Hull - .359 EV / game
He meant single season, not career. Lemieux never hit 50 ES goals and since there are ten players with 50 ESG seasons, he's not in the top 10.

He relied on the PP more than other top guys did.

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Old
03-28-2013, 05:32 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by 66871 View Post
Given who he was playing with that year, I think there's a strong argument that Lemieux's 199 is the greatest offensive season by any player. Not saying 66>99. But in terms of a single season, I would be inclined to go with 199 > 215.
Lemieux had Paul Coffey in his 199 point season, just like Gretzky did in his 215 point season. Yes, Gretzky had better forward linemates, but I'm not at all convinced they made much of a difference, when Gretzky broke 200 points in the early 80s before those linemates had developed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
I put Lemieux squarely on Gretzky's level.

Gretzky was a better playmaker, Mario was a better skill player.

Mario is what happens when Wayne Gretzky decides to get physical.
Huh? Mario was a much larger player than Gretzky, but he was not a physical hockey player.

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03-28-2013, 05:48 PM
  #108
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Haven't read the thread, but just popped in to say, to question whether Mario Lemieux was ever overrated is a little like asking, is Jupiter really that big? It just seems misplaced.

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03-28-2013, 05:48 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lemieux had Paul Coffey in his 199 point season, just like Gretzky did in his 215 point season. Yes, Gretzky had better forward linemates, but I'm not at all convinced they made much of a difference, when Gretzky broke 200 points in the early 80s before those linemates had developed.
I have less of a problem with 212 > 199 than I do with 215>199. 212 is great because it was don't with a lot of young/undeveloped talent on the team. 199 was done with very little talent elsewhere in the team (Coffey excluded). I would still argue that 199 is greater simply because there other than Lemieux and Coffey, that roster was pretty barren.

By the way, I was a big fan of both players. Don't let the Pens avatar fool you. I spent a lot of school nights staying up late watching the Oilers with my Dad. And Gretzky was a real treat to watch.

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03-28-2013, 06:03 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by typicryptic View Post
Think about it this way. Take the very best attributes from the two best players in the game today (Crosby and Malkin) and you have an absolute beast with every tool you need to succeed in hockey. Crosby's hockey IQ, tenacity, vision, decision and playmaking, snapshot and backhand, skating ability, reflexes, hand-eye, strength and general athleticism, and adaptability. Combined with Malkin's stickhandling, wrist and slap shot, reach, and size.

There's nothing more you can ask more from a combination of Crosby and Malkin. And yet, Lemieux is hands down better than that hybrid in nearly every single aspect.

It's impossible to overrate someone like that.
Seriously. There's a four way tie for best player of all time. Mario, Wayne, Bobby, Gordie. Anyone saying otherwise is smoking something.

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03-28-2013, 06:06 PM
  #111
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I was going to chime in and respond how ridiculous a topic this is...

But the OP brings up some very interesting points.

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03-28-2013, 06:10 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by IComeInPeace View Post
I was going to chime in and respond how ridiculous a topic this is...

But the OP brings up some very interesting points.
Being deadly on the powerplay, which is an integral part of hockey, is hardly a knock against the guy.

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03-28-2013, 07:27 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Stars23* View Post
In his 1995-96 and 2000-01 Stats - close to 50% of his total Goals and Assists came from the POWERPLAY - not that impressive when you look at the whole picture.
So if you subtract his PP goals from his ES goals he almost has nothing! My God he was barely better than I was...I could have scored nothing

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03-28-2013, 08:02 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by StoneColdFlower View Post
Underrated. His performance in 92 - 93 of 160 points in 60 games AFTER RECOVERING FROM CANCER is the greatest accomplishment in NHL history. Gretzky and his record breaking season is only number two. In terms of career value value though, Gretzky is clearly the GOAT.
Which "record breaking season" are you referring to exactly? You have about 10 to choose from...

PS. Gretzky scored 175 points in his first 60 games in 83-84. And I would say his 153 points during the first 51 (consecutive) games of that season are also more impressive (exactly 3 points per game).

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03-28-2013, 08:04 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by tntkid View Post
Mario Lemieux is better than any of today's top superstars.

If not for the health & back problems he would have surpassed Gretzky.
Not really

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Old
03-28-2013, 08:08 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by 66871 View Post
Given who he was playing with that year, I think there's a strong argument that Lemieux's 199 is the greatest offensive season by any player. Not saying 66>99. But in terms of a single season, I would be inclined to go with 199 > 215.
If you're going to go with who they were playing with as your barometer, why don't you go with Gretzky's 212 points in 81-82 when Wayne more than doubled anyone else on his team and beat his 2nd place teammate (Anderson) by 15 points with his assists alone? Think about that for a second: Gretzky scores a record 92 goals, but if you remove every single one of those record 92 goals, he still demolishes everyone else's point total with his assists alone. Mario has never done anything like that.

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03-28-2013, 09:00 PM
  #117
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I'm not against challenging canon ideas , but Lemieux wasn't and isn't overrated at all.He was a deeply talented offensive player.Nobody compares today.

Lemieux was the real deal.He toyed with n1 or n6 defensemen with the same easiness.That's the difference between Lemieux and 99% of the other stars and that's why he was unstoppable.He was also as great a playmaker as he was a scorer.

Few players , if any , ever stood out as much as Lemieux did when you watched an NHL game.


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Old
03-28-2013, 10:18 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
I'm not against challenging canon ideas , but Lemieux wasn't and isn't overrated at all.He was a deeply talented offensive player.Nobody compares today.

Lemieux was the real deal.He toyed with n1 or n6 defensemen with the same easiness.That's the difference between Lemieux and 99% of the other stars and that's why he was unstoppable.He was also as great a playmaker as he was a scorer.

Few players , if any , ever stood out as much as Lemieux did when you watched an NHL game.
Totally agree. The guy was a very special player. He had that certain quality that only Orr, Gretzky, and Howe had. It's debatable as to who had more of it than who, but they all had "it".

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03-28-2013, 10:43 PM
  #119
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He was better than Gretzky.
No and No.

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Old
03-29-2013, 12:11 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
I'm not against challenging canon ideas , but Lemieux wasn't and isn't overrated at all.He was a deeply talented offensive player.Nobody compares today.

Lemieux was the real deal.He toyed with n1 or n6 defensemen with the same easiness.That's the difference between Lemieux and 99% of the other stars and that's why he was unstoppable.He was also as great a playmaker as he was a scorer.

Few players , if any , ever stood out as much as Lemieux did when you watched an NHL game.
More or less my view.

He separated himself from the pack (which is why there's a "big 4"), but there's virtually no argument for him over Gretzky.

At least there's an interesting debate against Howe and Orr, dunno why all the Mario supporters have such a bone to pick with Gretzky.

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03-29-2013, 12:35 AM
  #121
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Seriously. There's a four way tie for best player of all time. Mario, Wayne, Bobby, Gordie. Anyone saying otherwise is smoking something.
You are the 1st eprson ever to say there is a 4 way tie for 1st,

I've never ehard this before.

I'm a huge career guya nd think that helping your team win and 2 way play is more important than scoring 5 goals 5 different ways in a hockey game.

Mario was a fantasy stud and an excellent offensive NHL player and talent but injuries and really no defensive game to speak of are often unspoken and need to be taken into account.

As a career guy I could see Mario slip out of the top 4 Centers on my list in the upcoming top centers project.

Jean and Stan are good bets to make my top 5 although after Wayne it just gets really crowded with great centers.

Taylor needs to get thrown into the mix somewhere as well.

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03-29-2013, 12:38 AM
  #122
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It is a bit of a cop-out to say that it's a four-way tie for first.

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03-29-2013, 12:57 AM
  #123
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You are the 1st eprson ever to say there is a 4 way tie for 1st,

I've never ehard this before.

I'm a huge career guya nd think that helping your team win and 2 way play is more important than scoring 5 goals 5 different ways in a hockey game.

Mario was a fantasy stud and an excellent offensive NHL player and talent but injuries and really no defensive game to speak of are often unspoken and need to be taken into account.

As a career guy I could see Mario slip out of the top 4 Centers on my list in the upcoming top centers project.

Jean and Stan are good bets to make my top 5 although after Wayne it just gets really crowded with great centers.

Taylor needs to get thrown into the mix somewhere as well.
I think he was going for the thing that all those four have arguments for being #1. I have never seen a reasonable argument for any other than Howe, Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux.

Mario is funny in that way that he is basically the only one that i have seen someone to drop from the "Big 4". He is definitely the one player that divides the opinions most.

For some he is the best ever and for some (like you, maybe) he is not even slam dunk 4th best.

That said, i don't think he is overrated.

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Old
03-29-2013, 01:49 AM
  #124
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Just saying to most poster here (and most people in the world don't seem to understand this concept) Over-rated does not equal bad

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03-29-2013, 02:34 AM
  #125
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More or less my view.

He separated himself from the pack (which is why there's a "big 4"), but there's virtually no argument for him over Gretzky.

At least there's an interesting debate against Howe and Orr, dunno why all the Mario supporters have such a bone to pick with Gretzky.
Funny you mention that, because I've always felt the same way. But many Lemieux fans complain about Gretzky's lack of size, something they can't say about Orr and Howe, both of whom were far more physical than Lemieux. I think for them, Gretzky just doesn't fit the mold of what a hockey player "should" be. Lemieux was bigger and had more obvious physical gifts, which to many of his supporters is more important than Gretzky's superior statistical dominance.

I actually think Lemieux vs Orr is a much more interesting debate. Both dominated when healthy but lost significant amounts of time due to injury. Orr was the better two way player, but he lasted even less time than Lemieux did. He also had a dominant team for a lot longer, yet only managed to win 2 cups, just like Lemieux.

Personally, I put Orr above him. But I think there are a lot more similarities between Mario's career and Bobby's, than between him and Wayne.

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