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Old
03-29-2013, 01:11 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
What does that even mean?

We get it Leaf fans, Schenn sucks. Do you have to turn every Flyers thread into a trash Schenn thread? We"re aware of Schenn's deficiencies. He's a stay at home guy who will never be the offensive superstar that no one projected him to be. Let me know when JVR breaks that no goal streak.

As others have said, the defense isn't bad at purely defending when healthy. I'll point to the top ten pk unit and shots against for proof. They're just not a good transition defense, which would explain why the 5 on 5 offense is so bad. It's quite clear that they need to either develop or bring in a couple of guys that can push the puck up the ice to compliment some really good stay at home guys (Schenn, Grossman, Coburn).
Listen, just because you may have insecurities doesn't mean it's the goal of mine to trash Schenn. Simply put, it's just my best attempt at an objective analysis. It's not like I wasn't saying the same things when he was a leaf either, read my post history. I was clamoring for the JVR trade even when flyers were demanding a second with it.

If you were going to criticize every poster on here for saying anything negative about a flyer player, even if its somewhat warranted, then perhaps you should stay away from the general board. There's a difference between a rationale and objective analysis versus trolling. Sorry the narrative of this board doesn't fit yours.

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03-29-2013, 01:14 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Mark Messier View Post
The Flyers have amazed me this year. If someone told me that Bryz would be the best Flyer this season, I would have said that the Flyers would definitely win the Atlantic.
Bryzgalov has been our worst player not named Gervais or Foster. Lilja and Shelley don't count.

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Old
03-29-2013, 01:23 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by firstemperor View Post
Listen, just because you may have insecurities doesn't mean it's the goal of mine to trash Schenn. Simply put, it's just my best attempt at an objective analysis. It's not like I wasn't saying the same things when he was a leaf either, read my post history. I was clamoring for the JVR trade even when flyers were demanding a second with it.

If you were going to criticize every poster on here for saying anything negative about a flyer player, even if its somewhat warranted, then perhaps you should stay away from the general board. There's a difference between a rationale and objective analysis versus trolling. Sorry the narrative of this board doesn't fit yours.
Ok, give us some rational and objective analysis to show that. Your little 80/20 ratio doesn't qualify as analysis, and your skewed perspective based on Schenn's play with the Leafs hardly leaves you objective enough to gauge his current performance as a Flyer.

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Old
03-29-2013, 01:28 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
With a defense like this :

Timonen - Schenn
Gervais - Foster
Gustaffsson - Lilja


How can we not win the cup?!
Best thing I have seen all year. Hopefully we keep on losing and get a great pick

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03-29-2013, 01:31 PM
  #105
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Best thing I have seen all year. Hopefully we keep on losing and get a great pick

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Old
03-29-2013, 01:32 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Gibbs18 View Post
Best thing I have seen all year. Hopefully we keep on losing and get a great pick
Can't blame the Pens for tanking their way to a cup anymore

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03-29-2013, 01:42 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Devils Trap View Post
There's a difference between wanting to tank and then wanting to get a better pick because there's virtually no chance that we make the playoffs. Our puck luck has been absolutely atrocious (ie. yesterday's game) this year and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Winning is almost the worst thing we can do at this point. If we play hard and lose then the losing doesn't bother me at all and I look at it as benefiting us in the future.

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Old
03-29-2013, 01:47 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by GTopCheese View Post
There's a difference between wanting to tank and then wanting to get a better pick because there's virtually no chance that we make the playoffs. Our puck luck has been absolutely atrocious (ie. yesterday's game) this year and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Winning is almost the worst thing we can do at this point. If we play hard and lose then the losing doesn't bother me at all and I look at it as benefiting us in the future.
This. While the Pens get Iginla, Morrow, and Murray....

Edit: I heard yesterday the Flyers are 3 points out of being the worst team.


Last edited by Gibbs18: 03-29-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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Old
03-29-2013, 01:55 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Ok, give us some rational and objective analysis to show that. Your little 80/20 ratio doesn't qualify as analysis, and your skewed perspective based on Schenn's play with the Leafs hardly leaves you objective enough to gauge his current performance as a Flyer.
If that doesn't qualify as giving an analysis of the Flyers, then no one on this general board should bother posting an opinion. Why don't you use your logic against every other post in this thread.

FYI, being a hockey fan doesn't mean your relegated to watching your home team only as well. My opinion on Schenn has not changed from his last few years as a leaf. That isn't based on some 'skewed perspective' either. Like I said, if you don't appreciate the notion of providing opinions on this board, perhaps you should avoid it. Because whatever post doesn't fit your narrative is just going to subject to your irrational generalizations of "You don't watch hockey", "Your a leafs fan, we get it".

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03-29-2013, 02:04 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by PantherDigest View Post
Can't blame the Pens for tanking their way to a cup anymore
Holmgren is in the back going Tonya Harding on all our defensemen so we can get Seth Jones even though we know that we can't fix Bryzgalov.

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03-29-2013, 02:05 PM
  #111
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can anyone link me to the article where Gustaffsson says that the Flyers and the Phantoms play a different system? thanks.

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Old
03-29-2013, 02:09 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by firstemperor View Post
If that doesn't qualify as giving an analysis of the Flyers, then no one on this general board should bother posting an opinion. Why don't you use your logic against every other post in this thread.

FYI, being a hockey fan doesn't mean your relegated to watching your home team only as well. My opinion on Schenn has not changed from his last few years as a leaf. That isn't based on some 'skewed perspective' either. Like I said, if you don't appreciate the notion of providing opinions on this board, perhaps you should avoid it. Because whatever post doesn't fit your narrative is just going to subject to your irrational generalizations of "You don't watch hockey", "Your a leafs fan, we get it".
You came into a thread about the Flyer's defense as a whole and singled out only Schenn to criticize. Tell me again how you don't have an ax to grind.

And if you watched Schenn this year, your objective opinion should be that he's played better than he had in Toronto before the trade.

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03-29-2013, 02:13 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Crafton View Post
can anyone link me to the article where Gustaffsson says that the Flyers and the Phantoms play a different system? thanks.
Quote:
GLENS FALLS -- One of the focuses of any minor-league team is development, getting players ready for the major league affiliate. For that reason, an organization will often play the same system at every level, no matter what the sport.

The Adirondack Phantoms are one of the exceptions to that rule, playing a different system than the Philadelphia Flyers this season.

Most AHL teams play the same system as their NHL affiliates. Someone watching the New Jersey Devils and the Albany Devils would see very similar styles of play, for example.

Phantoms head coach Terry Murray said his former team, the Los Angeles Kings, played the same system as their AHL affiliate, Manchester. Both Danny Syvret and Zack FitzGerald, who have played for a combined 10 organizations, said every AHL team they played for used the same system as its NHL affiliate.

Up until this year, the Phantoms also played the same system as the Flyers, but that was before they brought in a coach with substantial NHL experience.

“I think maybe it’s because of me coming in as a veteran coach, they want to let me play the system I’m comfortable with, that I know, that I’ve been using over the years,” Murray said.

...
http://poststar.com/sports/phantoms-...a4bcf887a.html


Last edited by spiny norman: 03-29-2013 at 02:28 PM. Reason: please do not post entire article
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Old
03-29-2013, 02:22 PM
  #114
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They guy who assembled that D is without a doubt a comedic genius.

And lets be real tea here, before someone whines about it, that includes Coburn and Meszaros. They are funny too, no need to feel left out.

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Old
03-29-2013, 03:30 PM
  #115
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Did somebody actually say Giroux has been terrible this year? Wow some people are dumb.

The PP runs through Giroux. Flyers have the top powerplay in the league. Not only that but G's taken the most faceoffs in the league (around the same amount as Crosby, 60 more than Bozak in 3rd) and still has a 54% faceoff percentage vs. the Flyers has a whole with 47.6% ... it's laughable how bad the team around Giroux is.

Worst defense and most overpaid goaltender in the league. He's a 'meh' goalie who has night where he's sharp but to be blunt I'd rather have a **** goalie making $1mil vs. $6mil for the next 7 years.

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03-29-2013, 03:34 PM
  #116
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Timonen at this point is a passable #2, but probably best used as a good #3.

Coburn is a passable #3 but probably best used as a #4.

Grossman, schenn, meszaros can all play as #4s but are probably best used outside of the top 4.

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Old
03-29-2013, 03:42 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Timonen at this point is a passable #2, but probably best used as a good #3.

Coburn is a passable #3 but probably best used as a #4.

Grossman, schenn, meszaros can all play as #4s but are probably best used outside of the top 4.
Coburn was a strong #2 last year. He has regressed to a decent #3 this year.
Timonen was a strong #2 last year. He has regressed to a decent #2, strong #3.

Schenn has played as a strong #2 all year.

Grossmann has played as a decent #3, strong #4 all year.

Meszaros has shown he can play at the level of a decent #2, strong #3 in Philadelphia, but since that season has been made of glass and hardly ever in the lineup.

The only real issue is that 1) Timonen has regressed, 2) none of Coburn, Grossmann, or Schenn can really handle puck-moving duties so pairing any two of them together is a bad idea, 3) Meszaros is as tough as paper, 4) the organization has been mishandling the development of Gustafsson, Manning, and Bourdon, and 5) there are no real potential #1 defensemen in the pipeline at the moment even if Gostisbehere looks awesome right now.



Honestly 60% of the issue is Bryzgalov (45% of that being Bryzgalov actually sucking and 15% of that being the fact that the Flyers have no capable fallback goaltender when Bryz is suckier than his general sucking). 20% of the issue is inability to move the puck. 10% of the issue is a regressive performance by Coburn, mostly because he was asked to play a role he hasn't been developed to play. 10% of the issue is injuries forcing an incompetent bottom pairing all season.


Last edited by CS: 03-29-2013 at 03:48 PM.
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Old
03-29-2013, 03:44 PM
  #118
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That's almost as bad as the Edmonton Oilers!

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Old
03-29-2013, 03:59 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Coburn was a strong #2 last year. He has regressed to a decent #3 this year.
Timonen was a strong #2 last year. He has regressed to a decent #2, strong #3.

Schenn has played as a strong #2 all year.

Grossmann has played as a decent #3, strong #4 all year.

Meszaros has shown he can play at the level of a decent #2, strong #3 in Philadelphia, but since that season has been made of glass and hardly ever in the lineup.

The only real issue is that 1) Timonen has regressed, 2) none of Coburn, Grossmann, or Schenn can really handle puck-moving duties so pairing any two of them together is a bad idea, 3) Meszaros is as tough as paper, 4) the organization has been mishandling the development of Gustafsson, Manning, and Bourdon, and 5) there are no real potential #1 defensemen in the pipeline at the moment even if Gostisbehere looks awesome right now.



Honestly 60% of the issue is Bryzgalov (45% of that being Bryzgalov actually sucking and 15% of that being the fact that the Flyers have no capable fallback goaltender when Bryz is suckier than his general sucking). 20% of the issue is inability to move the puck. 10% of the issue is a regressive performance by Coburn, mostly because he was asked to play a role he hasn't been developed to play. 10% of the issue is injuries forcing an incompetent bottom pairing all season.
Coburn only ever thrived as a #4 guy behind pronger timmo and carle. he did ok last year in a 2/3 role but i think it's fairly clear that the entire team was playing a bit over their heads last year. i'll stick with calling him a passable #3 / good #4.

i agree on timmo.

schenn, grossman, meszaros are not guys you really want in your top 4...and definitely not higher than #4. the fact they are being used in those roles this year is a big reason why your team is
struggling so badly.

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03-29-2013, 04:06 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Coburn only ever thrived as a #4 guy behind pronger timmo and carle. he did ok last year in a 2/3 role but i think it's fairly clear that the entire team was playing a bit over their heads last year. i'll stick with calling him a passable #3 / good #4.
That's completely untrue.

Coburn thrived as a #2 before Pronger, and then thrived again as a #2 after Pronger.

He is inconsistent though, and when asked to play in a PMD role, he is ineffective. He needs someone next to him who can move the puck, and then he will be a true #2 again in this league.

He's a different player to Luke Schenn, but he needs the same thing. Schenn dropped weight and is excelling next to Timonen who takes the focus away from Schenn's lack of a PMD game.

Coburn needs that as well. He's still a better player than Schenn and probably Timonen at this point. The fact that he is still our leading ToI player and leading defensive defenseman is pretty telling. He's just the guy out of himself, Schenn, and Grossmann, that the Flyers threw to the wolves because he is easily the best of the three.

Give him a PMD like Gardiner or someone similar, and Coburn will be back next year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
schenn, grossman, meszaros are not guys you really want in your top 4...and definitely not higher than #4. the fact they are being used in those roles this year is a big reason why your team is
struggling so badly.
That is absolute *********.

Meszaros isn't a top 4 defenseman anymore because of his injuries, but to say Schenn and Grossmann aren't top 4 defenseman is an extremely ignorant statement. You need to watch the Flyers and reassess your opinions.

It's pretty evident you have no idea what's wrong in Philadelphia.

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03-29-2013, 04:16 PM
  #121
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Chris, don't think ee don't remember your views on schenn before trading for him, and your complete 180 on him within weeks of the trade....before even watching him play for your team. the fact that he's getting #3 minutes on one of the worst teams in hockey this year doesn't prove that he's improved.

meszaros has only ever excelled in bottom pair protected roles....with ottawa as a youngster and with you guys the first year. any time he has been used as a top 4 dman....witj tampa and now with you guys....he has struggled badly.

nick grossman was a solid 18-19mpg #5 borderline #4 dman in dallas, and is the exact same player for philly now.


Last edited by zeke: 03-29-2013 at 04:21 PM.
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03-29-2013, 04:31 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
You came into a thread about the Flyer's defense as a whole and singled out only Schenn to criticize. Tell me again how you don't have an ax to grind.

And if you watched Schenn this year, your objective opinion should be that he's played better than he had in Toronto before the trade.
What are you talking about? There is no "axe" to grind. Just because something doesn't fit your narrative doesn't mean you should be generalizing an entire fan base and disregarding an opinion because of it. Is it really revolutionary theory to have that opinion on Schenn? It's even been acknowledged by myself (you can check my post history) that I felt the same about him before the trade. Listen, no one's going to say anything if you want to constructively oppose that opinion. Resorting to petty generalizations has no place on this board.

If you can't handle the narrative of this board, then perhaps you should avoid it. Someone can have a disfavourable opinion but not have a personal vendetta against said player. And no one appreciates comments like, "your just a leafs fan" or "you don't watch any games".

And just FYI, the only reason why I would comment on Schenn is by default. Leaf fans, like myself, have invested a lot into him and are naturally curious by his development. There is no "axe" to grind. We aren't cave men that have to be relegated only to their home team.

By the way, if your interested. To expand on my opinion is he's been marginally better on the flyers this year than on the leafs last year on Ron's system. Thought he looked his best the year before last when he was a leaf. Still just outside of a top 4-dman but he was decent at finishing his hits and getting out the first pass.

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03-29-2013, 04:33 PM
  #123
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You're welcome to Ben Lovejoy or Bryan Allen if you'd like them.

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Old
03-29-2013, 04:36 PM
  #124
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Bad team.

surely you jest. Bad team??? Bad D,sure. Overall you are smoking something

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03-29-2013, 04:59 PM
  #125
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surely you jest. Bad team??? Bad D,sure. Overall you are smoking something
standings

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