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Blues Trade Proposals - Part 5

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Old
03-29-2013, 09:16 AM
  #376
PerryTurnbullfan
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Originally Posted by Blue Goose View Post
I agree. Not to come off like a biased homer, but I think we can get more than a 4th for Andy. I do think that moving him should be a serious consideration at this point, and I even made a thread in the main room: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1387587

Everyone seems to think that Andy is going to walk. Yes, I know how he would help our chances in the playoffs, but his production can be replaced. Also, his past playoff performances should help garner some interest in him at the deadline.

Many people seem to think that Andy will return to Anaheim as a UFA, but that they might want him now to play with Selanne for this Cup run (in case Teemu retires). Therefore, even if they are in our conference, I think they would likely offer the best package - the Eastern teams who may kick the tires (Bruins, Rangers, Hurricanes - just guesses on my part) would likely only view him as a rental and offer picks, whereas Anaheim may see him as a Duck long-term and could offer a solid prospect.

The Ducks have great center depth, so I chose Chris Wagner - since it seemed like Holland, Rakell and Cramarossa are off-limits, and those three (along with Getzlaf's contract, etc.) could keep Wagner from ever really cementing a decent roster spot at Center with that team. A couple of the Ducks fans seemed okay with the trade proposal, so I thought I might have been on to something with my line of thinking.

Here's a good write-up on Wagner, in which he's referred to as a playmaker who's strong defensively and good in the faceoff circle (even the fans in the Comments section say that he could be expendable):

http://www.anaheimcalling.com/2012/9...t-chris-wagner
I like the deal. If you can get something for Andy McDonald, then I think you need to consider it. We have enough talent to move forward without him. I've kind of looked the same direction at teams that need a key piece and may be willing to part now with them for their playoff run. Whether it is a center or a projected top 4 (like Anaheim's Kevin Lind), I think we need to think past right now.


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03-29-2013, 10:10 AM
  #377
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I don't understand the basis of blowing it up after 30-odd games. If we miss the playoffs? Sure. If we get our ass handed to us in the playoffs? Sure.

In the summer, it might be best to trade multiple parts of the "core", but we don't know that yet. What we do know with 100% certainly is that 1 player needs to go. That is one of Perron, Oshie, Backes and Berglund.
If I had to choose, I'd say Berglund. The only reason I've been against trading him is that he plays Center on a team without many Centers. He frustrates me, but he can be a beast when he's on. It's all in his head frankly. If he played like Steen, he would be amazing. But he's too worried about not screwing up, or making the perfect play. Steen just rips pucks at the net and thinks about it later. Berglund could take a page out of his book. Not to mention Steen moves his feet pretty much all the time.....another thing Berglund could get used to doing.

I have to go back to the veteran leadership angle a bunch have been talking about. Last year we had Arnott and Langs, this year we've had neither of those guys (I think if you're on IR you don't really do much with the team) and it really does show. I'm going to have to eat a little crow here, because I wasn't so sure we really needed those type of guys. If you look at a lot of the rosters of those Cup winners, they helped their young talent by adding grit/veteran leadership. We have Nichol/Langs/Redden, who are 4th line grinder/IR/played in the AHL for 2 years. A little different then last year when you had Arnott and Langs full time with their Cup and overall NHL experience.

Our team this year reminds me of the last couple of years without Arnott and Langs where they would play really well for stretches, then play poorly for stretches, sometimes during the same game. Last year was the first time we saw consistency from our team in 5-7 years, and now that we don't have Arnott/Langs, we're back to being that up and down inconsistent team again. I don't really know what to do about that, other then go out and try to find the right mix of veterans to keep this team constant.

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03-29-2013, 10:51 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by BadgersandBlues View Post
If I had to choose, I'd say Berglund. The only reason I've been against trading him is that he plays Center on a team without many Centers. He frustrates me, but he can be a beast when he's on. It's all in his head frankly. If he played like Steen, he would be amazing. But he's too worried about not screwing up, or making the perfect play. Steen just rips pucks at the net and thinks about it later. Berglund could take a page out of his book. Not to mention Steen moves his feet pretty much all the time.....another thing Berglund could get used to doing.
Personally the two players that have pissed me off the most are Oshie and Backes. Oshie is afraid to hit anymore coughs the puck up right before the blue line at least once a game which leads to a great scoring chance for the other team. Backes I think has looked terrible all year. I know he is a slow starter and I keep telling myself that but I watch him play and all I ever see him do is skate in try to shoot the puck off the boards and back to him which never works. And the other guy who drives me crazy is Hitch. Can we please for the love of god stop shooting the puck in every time. I swear the other team could just put both defenseman behind the net and no matter what the blues are going to shoot it in. I agree the bergie has not looked great but no one has. The three players that stand out to me every night for the last 10 or 15 games is Stewart, sobotka, and schwartz. And whenever me and some of my friends watch the game we made a drinking game when the blues are on the powerplay you have to drink every time perron shoots the puck into the opposing players shins. And let me tell you that will get you hammered real fast. I have never seen someone get so many shots blocked besides EJ when he used to be on our powerplay. And when it comes to selfish hockey I really think we need to look at pietrangelo, he played great last year perfect defense and would take over games. But he didn't win the norris and instead someone who was a 4th forward won it. I think he has realized that to win the norris trophy you don't need to play defense but score a bunch of points and if he does win it then he is going to get paid. I see him back behind the other teams net more than any of our own forwards. So I say we hang on to Bergie and move one of Oshie or Perron and I know it will never happen but Backes.

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03-29-2013, 10:55 AM
  #379
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Berglund honestly shouldn't get anything more than 2.5
I could see the Blues taking Berglund to arbitration if he doesn't sign a QO and he and his agent have an inflated sense of worth.

I wouldn't have a problem bringing him back on just a one year deal. He would still be an RFA after next year in that scenario. He's still a guy I'd like to have in an ideal world but money is everything for this franchise and Berglund is what he is at this point: a 3rd line center playing a line too high whose PPG in the two years after he signed his second contract in 2011 is less than the two years before he signed.

3 years, 9 mil would be my offer for any type of deal with some term...2.75, 3, 3.25. That might even be slightly high.

In the arbitration scenario, the reality is that he would probably be dealt.

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03-29-2013, 11:01 AM
  #380
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The Blues were winning and had better overall games when Cracknell and Porter were both in the lineup. Time to get what you can for McDonald because he won't be back next year anyway and start rolling with these two again.

Perron Sobotka Tarasenko
Schwartz Berglund Stewart
Steen Backes Oshie
Porter Nichol Cracknell

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03-29-2013, 11:04 AM
  #381
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Luckily I watched NCAA basketball last night over the Blues. There isn't a good reason to watch a Kings-Blues game anymore. I watched about 10 minutes but that was it. At 2-2, I knew heartache was moments away.

I say "luckily" because my emotions are more in check than someone who invested 2.5 hours in last night's game. Therefore I'm not ready to sell off parts of the core...yet.

The time for that will be this offseason IF IF IF the Blues miss the playoffs this season or if they get beat down in round 1. If that is the case then the question needs to be asked: "What has this core done that is so great that it can't be altered?"

Many have had playoff aspirations and hopes since they made it to the playoffs in 2008-2009 and lost to Vancouver. Since then we have only added more talent and experience to our core. Since then we will have only made the playoffs in 1 season out of 4 IF they don't make the playoffs. If they do and lose in the 1st round, they will have won one playoff series in 4 years. In that same time, 2 coaches have been fired thanks in part to a good chunk of this core. Not an ideal ratio.

I'm sure Armstrong is scouring the market for any improvements he can find but as Ray Shero said, the price for rentals is astronomical. We will likely just have to make do.

If the Blues miss the playoffs, I'd be prepared to make wholesale changes to the core. I wouldn't have a good reason to say don't do it. Inconsistency and underachievement would define these youngsters if they miss the playoffs this year.

ALL THAT SAID...they won't miss the playoffs. I just can't see it happening. There's too much talent on this team. Now a first round beat down could easily happen.

This team reminds me a lot of the Florida Panthers from 4-5 years ago. Back when they were building a "strong" young core of early draft picks and young acquisitions including Nathan Horton, Stephen Weiss, Michael Frolik, Rostislav Olesz, David Booth, Jay Bouwmeester, and Keith Ballard. The only problem was that the core really wasn't all that great and there were still plenty of holes that were left unfilled because the owners were working on a tight budget. The scary thing is that this Blues team is stronger but yet still struggles.(Spare me the "this minor detail is wrong with your comparison" replies. Comparisons are rarely 100% accurate.)

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03-29-2013, 12:01 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
ALL THAT SAID...they won't miss the playoffs. I just can't see it happening. There's too much talent on this team. Now a first round beat down could easily happen.
I can.

Blues play a streaking Wild team, the Hakws (who are still winning quite well), a suddenly revived Columbus team, the Wings, The Nashville Rinne's, etc. etc.


Seriously this seems like a best case scenario with the way the Blues are currently playing:

4/1: at Wild L (they have won 7 in a row)
4/4: at Hawks L (most likely)
4/5: Jackets OTL (back to back and the Jackets have looked better as of late)
4/7: at Wings OTL (they are better than the Blues right now)
4/9: at Preds W (although depending upon whether Tarasenko scores this could be a loss very quickly)
4/11: at Wild OTL/W (should be on a short downswing by this point)
4/14: Hawks L (first home game after a road trip against the Hawks)
4/16: Canucks W (Blues seem to have their number)
4/18: Coyotes W (they are horribad)
4/19: Stars W (coin-flip)
4/21: at Avs OTL (Blues have trouble in the thinner air)
4/23: Avs W (Hopefully there is still some pride there)
4/25: Flames W (Kipper is not doing that twice)
4/27: Hawks W (last game so hopefully they're resting)

18 PTS.
54 PTS total.

1) Hawks
2) Ducks
3) Canucks
4) Kings
5) Wild
6-7-8) Wings, Sharks, Preds, Blues

Note: San Jose and Detroit have easier schedules than the the Blues going forward. Nashville's is just as difficult, if not more so.

This is best case scenario. If the Blues suddenly go completely dry on scoring or Allen falters at all there are another 6-8 points that could go missing. I also think I am being generous on the OTL scenarios (more likely the Blues lose in regulation) with the hopes that Allen keep them in it.

The Blues could, very easily, miss the playoffs this year. If that happens I do not envy the situation the Blues' management will be in.
Not simply because of the hard decisions which would have had to been made anyway...but because without the playoff revenue there would be even less money to spend.


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Old
03-29-2013, 12:09 PM
  #383
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Armstrong losing enough games to hopefully win that lottery pick

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03-29-2013, 12:14 PM
  #384
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The Blues do need to move McDonald. Keep Perron, he actually makes stuff happen and has a future here. McDonald doesn't and is invisible out there. Someone over at the STLToday boards posted our stats and record with McDonald ever since he arrived here and every year we are much better without him in the lineup. The numbers were not close at all it was actually pretty shocking to me. But, McDonald is one of the biggest offenders when it comes to putting skill ahead of work. He's not a difference maker anymore out on the ice, he's old, too small, injury proned, etc. I don't care if we don't get a lot for him, we'll get nothing for him in the offseason anyways.

I'd take that proposed Anaheim deal. Don't know much about Wagner but Nichol should be gone after this season as well so it would make sense if he could slide into the bottom 6.

Cracknell needs to be on this team. He's big, a strong forechecker, smart, puts shots on goal, and just a reliable hard worker in the bottom 6. He's an NHL caliber player and we play well with him in the lineup.

We need to move forward with these guys (for now, Armstrong can do whatever he wants at the draft):

Steen-Backes-Oshie
Schwartz-Berglund-Stewart
Perron-Sobotka-Tarasenko
Porter-Nichol-Reaves
Cracknell, someone in McDonald deal

With the possibility of adding Jaskin next year? I would like that group moving forward (unless Armstrong thinks a shakeup is needed), with Nichol out.

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03-29-2013, 03:11 PM
  #385
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LeBrun is linking us to Bouwmeester. I really don't want to give up this year's 1st round draft pick.

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03-29-2013, 03:20 PM
  #386
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If we get J-Bo, we can kiss the playoffs goodbye.

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03-29-2013, 03:23 PM
  #387
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If we get J-Bo, we can kiss the playoffs goodbye.
Which is why we need to keep that first. Best plan to get a top pick though lol.

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03-29-2013, 03:30 PM
  #388
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DeKeyser Soze picks Wings.

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03-29-2013, 03:41 PM
  #389
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Heard an interview today with Doug Armstrong and he said he didn't think there would be any hockey trades, clubs are either buyers or sellers.

For what it's worth that's what he said.

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03-29-2013, 04:13 PM
  #390
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Heard an interview today with Doug Armstrong and he said he didn't think there would be any hockey trades, clubs are either buyers or sellers.

For what it's worth that's what he said.
Any other insight provided or a link to the interview?

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03-29-2013, 04:16 PM
  #391
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Any other insight provided or a link to the interview?
http://101sports.com/templates/audio...a=13850&type=s

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03-29-2013, 05:00 PM
  #392
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DeKeyser Soze picks Wings.
Eh, just one more of many reasons to root against the RedWings.

For a team that is still within the playoff hunt, I'm finding myself increasingly ambivalent about the Blues. I'm not sure what 'fix' there is. I just want this team to play better and win. But the idea of being a contender for the Cup this season seems fanciful (though not technically impossible).

I want Armstrong to make ANY move, but mostly because I just want something to latch onto (and I trust him not to do anything stupid). But maybe there's nothing there available to him that ISN'T stupid.

I won't be surprised if they slide out of playoff contention. And I won't be surprised if they go on a 10 game winning streak.

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03-29-2013, 05:11 PM
  #393
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Eh, just one more of many reasons to root against the RedWings.

For a team that is still within the playoff hunt, I'm finding myself increasingly ambivalent about the Blues. I'm not sure what 'fix' there is. I just want this team to play better and win. But the idea of being a contender for the Cup this season seems fanciful (though not technically impossible).

I want Armstrong to make ANY move, but mostly because I just want something to latch onto (and I trust him not to do anything stupid). But maybe there's nothing there available to him that ISN'T stupid.

I won't be surprised if they slide out of playoff contention. And I won't be surprised if they go on a 10 game winning streak.
The thing about the sliding out of playoff contention or the 10-game winning streak is that neither would be anything I could believe in. Armstrong sounded as depressed in that interview as I've heard him. Basically he has no idea what to do and he's kind of admitting it.

For myself, I came into this season simply pumped to continue to watch Alex Pietrangelo play hockey. I have not had that feeling a single time this year. There is no "the" reason for what's going on, but I do know that if Pietrangelo really were the next Lidstrom (he isn't) this season would have gone much differently so far. I guess that's my biggest disappointment. I thought all these years of heartache would be ameliorated by finally having that incredible difference-maker who'd be the franchise player. He'll obviously get better, but until that happens this franchise on a budget has no chance of competing seriously for a Cup.

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03-29-2013, 05:15 PM
  #394
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10? I can't remember how many 5 game streaks this team has had in the past couple years, but I'm willing to bet that it's not very many.

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03-29-2013, 05:20 PM
  #395
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I think we could still technically be buyers, but like Army said, players that are signed longer than just this season.

I guess a question is would JR tweet about LeBrun's story if he didn't think there was some serious substance to it or is he just updating Blues fans.

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03-29-2013, 05:28 PM
  #396
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IMO he's just passing along a national piece that discusses Blues interest, something pretty standard in my time following.

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03-29-2013, 05:43 PM
  #397
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The thing about the sliding out of playoff contention or the 10-game winning streak is that neither would be anything I could believe in. Armstrong sounded as depressed in that interview as I've heard him. Basically he has no idea what to do and he's kind of admitting it.

For myself, I came into this season simply pumped to continue to watch Alex Pietrangelo play hockey. I have not had that feeling a single time this year. There is no "the" reason for what's going on, but I do know that if Pietrangelo really were the next Lidstrom (he isn't) this season would have gone much differently so far. I guess that's my biggest disappointment. I thought all these years of heartache would be ameliorated by finally having that incredible difference-maker who'd be the franchise player. He'll obviously get better, but until that happens this franchise on a budget has no chance of competing seriously for a Cup.
I've been busy as hell lately so maybe you have stated this elsewhere and I haven't seen it. Are you leaning towards Pietragelo's lack of consistency having a trickle down effect on the roster this year like I am? I don't mean to say all the team's woes lie directly on his shoulders alone, other players are clearly screwing up as well. Maybe if I rephrase it a bit differently and say Pietrangelo's play is was what made this team tick last year that would be a more appropriate way for me to express it versus making a statement that would slam him. He's still young and I can live with a little growing pains in his play still. An upper echelon #1 d-man just seems to bring a calmness and ability to sweep some ugly play under the rug and keep the team going forward.

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03-29-2013, 05:47 PM
  #398
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I've been busy as hell lately so maybe you have stated this elsewhere and I haven't seen it. Are you leaning towards Pietragelo's lack of consistency having a trickle down effect on the roster this year like I am? I don't mean to say all the team's woes lie directly on his shoulders alone, other players are clearly screwing up as well. Maybe if I rephrase it a bit differently and say Pietrangelo's play is was what made this team tick last year would be a more appropriate way for me to express it versus making a statement that would slam him. He's still young and I can live with a little growing pains in his play still. An upper echelon #1 d-man just seems to bring a calmness and ability to sweep some ugly play under the rug and keep the team going forward.
I said many times last year that Pietrangelo's play was so far and away the most important factor with the team's success. People understood he was great, but I'm not sure if enough really appreciated how much his game made everything work.

I'm not blaming him for this year simply because it's weird to blame a guy for not being Lidstrom, but the difference from last year to this is like a Lidstrom coming off a team's roster. Great, great players are HUGE difference makers. It's true in all sports. He's just been average to above average this year, with a lot of mistakes that have directly caused the Blues to lose games.

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03-29-2013, 06:00 PM
  #399
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I said many times last year that Pietrangelo's play was so far and away the most important factor with the team's success. People understood he was great, but I'm not sure if enough really appreciated how much his game made everything work.

I'm not blaming him for this year simply because it's weird to blame a guy for not being Lidstrom, but the difference from last year to this is like a Lidstrom coming off a team's roster. Great, great players are HUGE difference makers. It's true in all sports. He's just been average to above average this year, with a lot of mistakes that have directly caused the Blues to lose games.
Oh I totally agree. There are very few players I would trade last year's Pietrangelo for. I have faith he will get back there but like you said until he does, it really doesn't matter what else we do with the roster.

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03-29-2013, 06:27 PM
  #400
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I know it would disappoint many here, but waiting till the offseason to make a trade might be the best way to go. Given that teams will see next season differently than this one, the offseason could be more fruitful.

As Army stated, teams are not making core player for core player swaps. They are not even making hockey trades. Because of the shortened season many teams are holding on to a lot more hope than normal. They are also realizing that this is the year to strike, as next year the cap drops significantly. Those factors could mean offseason activity will rise and with that our options should increase.

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