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Rask-Trying to get a feel for the average Bruins fan on here, please help

View Poll Results: How Many of the Goals Were Rask's Fault Tonight?
1 goal was his fault 41 24.55%
2 goals were his fault 25 14.97%
3 goals were his fault 8 4.79%
4 goals were his fault 1 0.60%
5 goals were his fault 7 4.19%
None of the goals were his fault. Bad luck and big breakdowns on D to fault 85 50.90%
Voters: 167. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-29-2013, 05:07 PM
  #226
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I wonder what Grant Fuhr would think of this discussion.

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03-29-2013, 05:53 PM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Thomas play-off career

07-08 .914 sv 2.65gaa
08-09 .935 sv 1.85 gaa
10-11 .929sv 2.05 gaa
11-12 .923sv 2.15gaa

Rask

09-10 .912 sv 2.61gaa
First years in the playoffs seem pretty comparable then, other then the fact that Tuukka won a series (out dueling one of the best in the game in Miller) and Thomas didn't.

How good anyone thinks Tuukka is is completely subjective, but it's hard to argue that he isn't good enough (if that makes any sense). Christ, if Fleury can win a Cup Tuukka most certainly can, the guys a frickin sieve. If the problem is the team needs a goalie who can save their rears consistently and have legendary performances, then the problem isn't that we have a really good starter who needs to be far better is it? No, the problem is we have a team that relies on their goalie having a legendary performance.

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03-29-2013, 06:25 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
First years in the playoffs seem pretty comparable then, other then the fact that Tuukka won a series (out dueling one of the best in the game in Miller) and Thomas didn't.

How good anyone thinks Tuukka is is completely subjective, but it's hard to argue that he isn't good enough (if that makes any sense). Christ, if Fleury can win a Cup Tuukka most certainly can, the guys a frickin sieve. If the problem is the team needs a goalie who can save their rears consistently and have legendary performances, then the problem isn't that we have a really good starter who needs to be far better is it? No, the problem is we have a team that relies on their goalie having a legendary performance.
good stuff.

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03-29-2013, 06:36 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Wow. Condescending, snarky, overly defensive. I really must have struck a nerve. For the record, I approve this message.

I have zero interest in processing spreadsheets. That's your bag, and I'm happy to leave you to it. All I'm doing is disagreeing with what you say. It's also very ironic that you accuse me of picking and choosing data sets that fit my argument, when most of your analysis consists of including multipliers and advanced stats that are designed to do nothing more than fit your argument. In other words, pot meet kettle.

Like I've always said, I appreciate the amount of effort you put in, but in this case, I simply disagree that a goal is a goal is a goal. It's not. Context matters. Some guys recognize and embrace the moment, some don't and fail. Where Rask ends up in that is yet to be determined.
First, thanks that you appreciate the work I put in. I think there are some that just totally dismiss it.

Yes I was condescending, and snarky. I was because you are the one that laughs at every post of mine like I'm an idiot, and who said you will keep it simple for me. You misconstrue and twist my argument almost every time instead of responding to what I am actually saying. Obviously it is hard to make everything clear so I don't know if that is intentional, but I think it often is. I wasn't overly defensive, I was just defending my argument, and clearing things up for you. If you want to keep it simple, then just say you disagree (to which I would like to know why), or leave it alone.

Don't misunderstand what I am saying every time. Don't (wrongly) take out small pieces of my data - it usually doesn't prove your point anyway. If you have conflicting data or more data that will prove your point then use it. I knew you wouldn't actually take a look at anything, and that is fine. If people aren't going to back anything up, then this place just becomes a place with posts saying I agree, or I disagree. I think discussion on a message board is more useful, but what do I know?

Also, can you point out what mulitpliers and advanced stats I'm using just to fit my argument, especially in this instance? I use a lot of data, ones that my and other studies have shown are the most important in contributing to winning. I don't just pick and choose data, or small sample sizes, or anomalies to fit my argument. I also look at team component in my analysis of anything. My analysis tells me Rask is good in "the clutch", and the team is letting him down big time right now.

If each goal isn't equal then you also need to look at what happened on each goal. It is also nice to compare him to his peers and not some fantasy of what you think he should be.

Lastly and this is to everyone - If Ryder didn't make a glove save, Gionta doesn't shoot back into Thomas, or the Bruins offense doesn't come up big, or a number of other things - Thomas' run never happens, Julien is fired, the team looks a lot different (and i doubt better), and we don't have a cup. Thomas is labeled a major choker. Think about that for a bit....

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03-29-2013, 06:53 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
First years in the playoffs seem pretty comparable then, other then the fact that Tuukka won a series (out dueling one of the best in the game in Miller) and Thomas didn't.

How good anyone thinks Tuukka is is completely subjective, but it's hard to argue that he isn't good enough (if that makes any sense). Christ, if Fleury can win a Cup Tuukka most certainly can, the guys a frickin sieve. If the problem is the team needs a goalie who can save their rears consistently and have legendary performances, then the problem isn't that we have a really good starter who needs to be far better is it? No, the problem is we have a team that relies on their goalie having a legendary performance.
Never was there more true a sentence....Team has holes...lots of them...goaltender being the least.

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03-29-2013, 08:53 PM
  #231
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Had to get my two cents in here. Rask is a phenomenal talent, there's no doubt about that. That said, there is a trend of him letting games get away. You can blame the whole team in front of him, and that's valid most nights. At the end of the day though, he has to come up with big saves at important times. Lets face it, he has a history of letting games get away. Every commentator out there made mention of Thomas being the key difference between the 2011 team and the 2010 team. Saying that Philly doesn't come back in that game seven if Thomas is in goal.

I'm saying, it might be nice to pick up a playoff experienced tender to back up Rask into the playoffs. Even if it just puts a little fire under him.

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03-29-2013, 09:10 PM
  #232
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How much do you pay him next year?

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03-29-2013, 11:01 PM
  #233
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Rask is a good goaltender. He is still young and learning more from each start , the only issue I have with him is he needs to focus more and stop his little kid antics

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03-29-2013, 11:03 PM
  #234
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How much do you pay him next year?
it all depends if he can win a playoff series

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03-30-2013, 07:12 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
First years in the playoffs seem pretty comparable then, other then the fact that Tuukka won a series (out dueling one of the best in the game in Miller) and Thomas didn't.

How good anyone thinks Tuukka is is completely subjective, but it's hard to argue that he isn't good enough (if that makes any sense). Christ, if Fleury can win a Cup Tuukka most certainly can, the guys a frickin sieve. If the problem is the team needs a goalie who can save their rears consistently and have legendary performances, then the problem isn't that we have a really good starter who needs to be far better is it? No, the problem is we have a team that relies on their goalie having a legendary performance.
It's pretty much this for years, to be honest. Our goaltending make our blueline look better then she really is. I mean... Aside Chara and Seid, what do you we have? Hamilton is a young player who learn his craft. Ference, well... McQuaid,Boychuk, Johnson? All decent guys but... who get easily burned when they have to face a speedy and skilled forward. It's not coincidence that, most of the time, our D-man are going to the box for hooking. They can't skate with their guys. At first, i though that fixing the top 6 was a HUGE priority but the more i look at this blueline, the more i think that a major shuffle is needed. For now, Chiarelli will "patch" but there's no way he's in a position to upgrade significantly this team to the point that they can be considered as a serious contender. The fact that PC tried to acquire Morrow and then Iginla is a clear signal, IMHO, that our GM know that something MAJOR is missing.

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03-30-2013, 08:14 AM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
It's pretty much this for years, to be honest. Our goaltending make our blueline look better then she really is. I mean... Aside Chara and Seid, what do you we have? Hamilton is a young player who learn his craft. Ference, well... McQuaid,Boychuk, Johnson? All decent guys but... who get easily burned when they have to face a speedy and skilled forward.
Why are you giving Chara a pass? He contributes as much to the mayhem passed the blue line, and in and around the net, as much as anyone else you mentioned. If you give Chara a pass, you have to give Boychuck and McQuaid a pass.


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03-30-2013, 09:09 AM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
First years in the playoffs seem pretty comparable then, other then the fact that Tuukka won a series (out dueling one of the best in the game in Miller) and Thomas didn't.

How good anyone thinks Tuukka is is completely subjective, but it's hard to argue that he isn't good enough (if that makes any sense). Christ, if Fleury can win a Cup Tuukka most certainly can, the guys a frickin sieve. If the problem is the team needs a goalie who can save their rears consistently and have legendary performances, then the problem isn't that we have a really good starter who needs to be far better is it? No, the problem is we have a team that relies on their goalie having a legendary performance.
Very good points and makes me reconsider my criticism on Rask. Does not mean I am convinced he is the guy yet but I am slow to come around on players. I need a few years to be sold on them. Seen too many young guys have one or two good years and then disappears.

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03-30-2013, 10:43 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
Very good points and makes me reconsider my criticism on Rask. Does not mean I am convinced he is the guy yet but I am slow to come around on players. I need a few years to be sold on them. Seen too many young guys have one or two good years and then disappears.
So then what does 3, going on 4 years of good play mean to you? Still unsure or what?

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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Why are you giving Chara a pass? He contributes as much to the mayhem passed the blue line, and in and around the net, as much as anyone else you mentioned. If you give Chara a pass, you have to give Boychuck and McQuaid a pass.
Are you somehow insinuating Boychuk and Mcquaid are comparable to Chara? Because Chara is by far the best defensemen on our team and even when he has bad games he still out performs everyone else by a country mile. There is no "pass" given here, he is unquestionably the best player in our team and the team isn't even close to a contender if he isn't on the ice for 30 minutes a game. No one on our team comes close to doing as much as he does and no, it isn't debatable.

As for nearly everyone else in this thread, stop being so shortsighted. Yes, Rask has had some questionable games this year, but what goalie doesn't? I want you to go through EVERY SINGLE great season any goalie has ever had and show me one who literally didn't have a bad game. Even Thomas' 938 season he had some bad ones. It really isn't a big deal.

For those comparing rask to thomas, I hope everyone is noting how many less shots per game the bruins are allowing a huge part of that is because Rask 1)has some semblance of rebound control and 2)because rask stops dump ins and can play the puck effectively.


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03-30-2013, 10:44 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
First, thanks that you appreciate the work I put in. I think there are some that just totally dismiss it.

Yes I was condescending, and snarky. I was because you are the one that laughs at every post of mine like I'm an idiot, and who said you will keep it simple for me. You misconstrue and twist my argument almost every time instead of responding to what I am actually saying. Obviously it is hard to make everything clear so I don't know if that is intentional, but I think it often is. I wasn't overly defensive, I was just defending my argument, and clearing things up for you. If you want to keep it simple, then just say you disagree (to which I would like to know why), or leave it alone.

Don't misunderstand what I am saying every time. Don't (wrongly) take out small pieces of my data - it usually doesn't prove your point anyway. If you have conflicting data or more data that will prove your point then use it. I knew you wouldn't actually take a look at anything, and that is fine. If people aren't going to back anything up, then this place just becomes a place with posts saying I agree, or I disagree. I think discussion on a message board is more useful, but what do I know?

Also, can you point out what mulitpliers and advanced stats I'm using just to fit my argument, especially in this instance? I use a lot of data, ones that my and other studies have shown are the most important in contributing to winning. I don't just pick and choose data, or small sample sizes, or anomalies to fit my argument. I also look at team component in my analysis of anything. My analysis tells me Rask is good in "the clutch", and the team is letting him down big time right now.

If each goal isn't equal then you also need to look at what happened on each goal. It is also nice to compare him to his peers and not some fantasy of what you think he should be.

Lastly and this is to everyone - If Ryder didn't make a glove save, Gionta doesn't shoot back into Thomas, or the Bruins offense doesn't come up big, or a number of other things - Thomas' run never happens, Julien is fired, the team looks a lot different (and i doubt better), and we don't have a cup. Thomas is labeled a major choker. Think about that for a bit....
Welcome to the internet...

In all seriousness though, I think the problem you have is that other people aren't going to use stats in the same manner as you do. A lot of sports can be processed via stats, and it's certainly interesting to look at them. The problem is that you can provide a ton of data and draw a conclusion, and someone else can use the same stats to say the exact opposite. It also doesn't really give the whole picture either, since emotion, heart, character, health, and ability also need to be considered.

In the end, I don't think we're every going to really agree since you view it so differently than I do. To me, statistics are nothing more than a frame of reference to what a player is capable of. It's not set in stone, it's not a finite thing. It's just another factor to consider.

Now in terms of the matter at hand, you can provide all the stats you want, but as sports are about wins and losses, and I can say that the amount of games they've blown in the 3rd period is a concern. I like Rask as a player, but I think he's got room for improvement. I also think he tends to feel the pressure more than Thomas did. It's nothing you can quantify with numbers, it's just something that shows up when you watch the games. Hopefully Rask develops that same big game attitude Thomas had and we raise a cup with him too.

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03-30-2013, 10:50 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
First years in the playoffs seem pretty comparable then, other then the fact that Tuukka won a series (out dueling one of the best in the game in Miller) and Thomas didn't.

How good anyone thinks Tuukka is is completely subjective, but it's hard to argue that he isn't good enough (if that makes any sense). Christ, if Fleury can win a Cup Tuukka most certainly can, the guys a frickin sieve. If the problem is the team needs a goalie who can save their rears consistently and have legendary performances, then the problem isn't that we have a really good starter who needs to be far better is it? No, the problem is we have a team that relies on their goalie having a legendary performance.
The team Thomas played on as a 1st year playoff starter is not equal to the one Rask inherited in his.

Thomas was on the 8th seed and put up his numbers against the top seed. The team he faced scored 262 goals that year- most in the conference. Rask faced the 3rd seed (but really 4th best team, since Pitt had more pts in the 4th spot than Buff did in the 3rd). The 2 teams he faced scored 235 and 236 goals that season.

So Thomas did it against a better scoring team, with a worse defense.

I'm not at all disagreeing with your overall point: I "think" Rask can be the starting goaltender on a Cup winning team. I just don't think he's Thomas.

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03-30-2013, 11:02 AM
  #241
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Anyone is a step back from Thomas in my book. But it can't be held against Rask. Rask is a very good goalie. The Bruins need another defenseman and any kind of PP and they can win the Cup with Rask.

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03-30-2013, 11:18 AM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aucoin11 View Post
Are you somehow insinuating Boychuk and Mcquaid are comparable to Chara? Because Chara is by far the best defensemen on our team and even when he has bad games he still out performs everyone else by a country mile.
Sorry, I am not on the "Chara-is-the-most-awesome-defenseman-in-the-world" bandwagon any more. My seat is now available. Glad to have him on the team because he still a very good defenseman. But he is just as frustrating to watch during the game as any other defenseman not named Chara. And because he is one of the best defensemen on the team, to me it sort of glaringly points to the problem with our defensive corp: Chara is one of the B's best defensemen and our defense is weak and penetrable.

He is simply not performing this season as many remember him from seasons past. Watch him during the games and you'll see he is slower, less capable, more error prone, beatable, and responsible for just as many turnovers in the Bruins zone as anyone else not named Ference. No stats. Just what I see when I focus on him.

Yes, I think he has come back to earth, no longer maintaining the gawd-like status he once enjoyed. Sorry that you and others don't agree. I get that you probably don't. I am not going to sweat it. Will you?

And before you or anyone else begin retorting how any team on the planet would love to have him on their team, I'm sure that's true and I'm not advocating for a trade involving him. However, the same can be said about Lucic. Get my point?

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03-30-2013, 11:30 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
The team Thomas played on as a 1st year playoff starter is not equal to the one Rask inherited in his.

Thomas was on the 8th seed and put up his numbers against the top seed. The team he faced scored 262 goals that year- most in the conference. Rask faced the 3rd seed (but really 4th best team, since Pitt had more pts in the 4th spot than Buff did in the 3rd). The 2 teams he faced scored 235 and 236 goals that season.

So Thomas did it against a better scoring team, with a worse defense.

I'm not at all disagreeing with your overall point: I "think" Rask can be the starting goaltender on a Cup winning team. I just don't think he's Thomas.
And this is exactly my point. If this team is waiting on a Tim Thomas to again take them to the Cup finals it will be a long long wait. I've never seen a goalie like Timmy, and am not entirely convinced I ever will again. Boston needs to be able to get it done with a goalie who is not Thomas, cause as the saying goes, he is not walking back through that door.

Rask is the next best thing imo. A very solid young goalie who is still improving and will only get better with experience. He is already one of the better goalies in the league... but you're right, he is no Tim Thomas.

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03-30-2013, 11:46 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Sorry, I am not on the "Chara-is-the-most-awesome-defenseman-in-the-world" bandwagon any more. My seat is now available. Glad to have him on the team because he still a very good defenseman. But he is just as frustrating to watch during the game as any other defenseman not named Chara. And because he is one of the best defensemen on the team, to me it sort of glaringly points to the problem with our defensive corp: Chara is one of the B's best defensemen and our defense is weak and penetrable.

He is simply not performing this season as many remember him from seasons past. Watch him during the games and you'll see he is slower, less capable, more error prone, beatable, and responsible for just as many turnovers in the Bruins zone as anyone else not named Ference. No stats. Just what I see when I focus on him.

Yes, I think he has come back to earth, no longer maintaining the gawd-like status he once enjoyed. Sorry that you and others don't agree. I get that you probably don't. I am not going to sweat it. Will you?

And before you or anyone else begin retorting how any team on the planet would love to have him on their team, I'm sure that's true and I'm not advocating for a trade involving him. However, the same can be said about Lucic. Get my point?
Your point is erroneous because everything you said is incorrect. Everything you said is based in recall bias. You can choose to be ignorant and go on and on and frame responses ending in illogical and silly questions, but when it comes down to it you are factually wrong.

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03-30-2013, 12:06 PM
  #245
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At the age Rask is now, Thomas was still off dog-sledding to hockey practice somewhere off in the frozen north of Finland.


Last edited by Colt.45Orr: 03-30-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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03-30-2013, 01:53 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr View Post
At the age Rask is now, Thomas was still off dog-sledding to hockey practice somewhere off in the frozen north of Finland.
At the age Jordan Caron is now Marty St Louis was playing for the Cleveland Lumberjacks.

I guess that means Caron is > St Louis

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03-30-2013, 02:01 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
At the age Jordan Caron is now Marty St Louis was playing for the Cleveland Lumberjacks.

I guess that means Caron is > St Louis
At the age Rask is now, Jose Theodore won a Hart and a Vezina. Theodore > every goalie 26 and older


Last edited by finchster: 03-30-2013 at 03:35 PM.
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03-30-2013, 02:46 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aucoin11 View Post
Your point is erroneous because everything you said is incorrect. Everything you said is based in recall bias. You can choose to be ignorant and go on and on and frame responses ending in illogical and silly questions, but when it comes down to it you are factually wrong.
Oooo! I am real comfortable in the place you've just put me. And please continue to post and discuss in the fine respectful manner you so aptly demonstrated. It demonstrates a degree of class so missing from the forum any more.

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03-30-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Oooo! I am real comfortable in the place you've just put me. And please continue to post and discuss in the fine respectful manner you so aptly demonstrated. It demonstrates a degree of class so missing from the forum any more.
Haha.

Irony is wonderful.

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