HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

All Purpose EJ Thread *Read Mod Warning # 1 & 34*

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-29-2013, 02:54 PM
  #151
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
But, it shows how even a guy like Hunwick playing way above his regular level of play, takes the burden off EJ to do everything offensively and transition wise, and he can just comfortably play his game and let the plays come to him.

I think Hunwick was playing at his best last night, that was a major difference. It's also why EJ got more and more comfortable as the game went on, and got better and better.
This is a good line of thought and discussion point. That said, here's what concerns me about your post:

You are suggesting that Matt Hunwick (a fairly lousy player and borderline NHL defenseman) - by himself - elevated his game to a level above what is expected of him, and only THEN did Erik Johnson (the franchise cornerstone of the defense) elevate his game to the level that is expected of him.

Hunwick did it solo, but EJ needed Hunwick?

Foppa, if that's true, then this situation is dire indeed. Why wouldn't the franchise cornerstone 1st pairing defenseman raise his play through his own actions/ability/determination; and the scrub then follow along?

That's why I'm hoping you're incorrect, and EJ played like that on his own.


Last edited by ABasin: 03-29-2013 at 03:34 PM.
ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 03:55 PM
  #152
Ivan13
Avs/Habs fan
 
Ivan13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 13,487
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
First of all Yandle has three more years after this not two.

Look, I like Barrie's promise, and he's moving the puck well, but how can people say a guy like Yandle is overrated when he is more multi dimensional, a vet leader, and a regular 40+ point guy who has a 59 point season on a defensive team, but a prospect with 1 goal and 6 assists in 27 games isn't overrated around here?

How can the same people that are up in arms about how Sherman built the blueline this season, hold on to what we could all agree will likely be the 3rd best D behind EJ, and Jones (if drafted) rather than bringing in a LHD for EJ.

What kind of impact D is this team gonna realistically bring in that's signed for more than three years, and why would a team be giving up a guy like that? And that's just assuming the paranoid situation of him returning to Boston actually happens, in which case they had three years of UFA's, three years of possible trades, and three years of UFA's to look to replace him.

I don't see keeping Barrie and Elliott for the 3rd pairing (which is not very important on a team with a good blueline) or forcing them to the left, and hoping they both start producing regularly, and do so on their off side, as better options than just packaging them for a proven LHD for the top pairing. If they draft Jones that is.

Which group are you more comfortable going forward with?

Yandle - EJ
X - Jones
X - X

or one of

X - EJ
X - Jones
X - Barrie/Elliott

Barrie/Elliott - EJ
X - Jones
X - X

Jones - EJ
X - Barrie/Elliott
X - X

The later three are really pining their hopes on potential. In the meantime if it wouldn't work out, people would be up in arms about how Sherman hadn't improved the D unit. Bringing in a guy with three years left, that you can try to re-sign is not shortsighted. He's proven and under contract longer than anyone on our D except for the young unproven guys.
I was wrong on the bolded.

But please explain to me what makes Yandle multi dimensional, he's about as multi dimensional as Willie Mitchell or Rob Scuderi. Very good puck mover, really good on the PP, defensive liability whose shortcomings are somewhat disguised by a strong defensive system and situational usage. He won't have the same luxury in Denver if he ends up here and we can't afford to pay an arm and a leg for a guy who needs to be put in perfect situation to be sucessful.

I think the best scenari that doesn't hurt the Avs and helps them both now and in the future is to trade Stastny for JBo. JBo is a guy who's really good defensively and he can move the puck, shift Barrie to the left side of the ice and draft Jones if we get a chance to do so.

Ice a defense that looks like this:

Barrie-EJ
JBo-Jones
Hejda-Elliott

Three youngsters and three guys who are all more than solid defensively and can cover for the mistakes they make as they're making a jump to becoming full time NHLers.

Also the claim that the 3rd pairing isn't all that important is a bit odd knowing how important was the Greene - Martinez pairing for the Kings in the last playoffs, or the Volchenkov - Harrold for the Devils. A strong 3rd pairing allows your top 4 to rest during games instead of burning up trying to cover for the 3rd pairing and in a gruelling playoff series defensive depth is of outmost importance.

Ivan13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 03:59 PM
  #153
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,702
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
This is a good line of thought and discussion point. That said, here's what concerns me about your post:

You are suggesting that Matt Hunwick (a fairly lousy player and borderline NHL defenseman) - by himself - elevated his game to a level above what is expected of him, and only THEN did Erik Johnson (the franchise cornerstone of the defense) elevate his game to the level that is expected of him.

Hunwick did it solo, but EJ needed Hunwick?

Foppa, if that's true, then this situation is dire indeed. Why wouldn't the franchise cornerstone 1st pairing defenseman raise his play through his own actions/ability/determination; and the scrub then follow along?

That's why I'm hoping you're incorrect, and EJ played like that on his own.
As has been pointed out before, every player gets motivated in different ways, just like every player is coachable in different ways.

Hunwick's been a frequent scratch, and I'm not surprised he raised his game. EJ's been coming slowly off a concussion and has looked off for the most part, and has been stuck in a rut. He needed a spark.

I'm not surprised at all that it took Hunwick playing at his best to spark him. EJ has put too much pressure on himself, and over thought plays with the puck when forced to do it all on his own, ever since he got here.

The team needs to work with him, and try to bring out the best in him. Not every player is low maintenance like O'Reilly to get them to play up to their potential. Duchene is the same way, he needs to be put in a certain role, and with the right linemates or he forces things and underperforms.

Foppa2118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 04:17 PM
  #154
Avs_19
Peter the Great
 
Avs_19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,497
vCash: 645
If this team gets Jones, that will give us three good defensemen (EJ, Barrie, Jones). So why would we trade EJ? We should be adding even more to the defense.

Defense is our biggest weakness and we wouldn't get a better defenseman in return for EJ if he was traded. Even if he doesn't become that elite #1 defenseman or a great two-way defenseman, he's still pretty damn good and I think he would be top 3-4 on almost every team in the league. He's also on a great contract.

Avs_19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 05:12 PM
  #155
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,702
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
If this team gets Jones, that will give us three good defensemen (EJ, Barrie, Jones). So why would we trade EJ? We should be adding even more to the defense.

Defense is our biggest weakness and we wouldn't get a better defenseman in return for EJ if he was traded. Even if he doesn't become that elite #1 defenseman or a great two-way defenseman, he's still pretty damn good and I think he would be top 3-4 on almost every team in the league. He's also on a great contract.
With all due respect, this is a pretty simple math equation.

With EJ, Barrie, and Jones we'd have three RH D, which includes two prospects. Why not trade the lesser prospect in a package for a proven LHD to round out the top four.

You're still left with the same amount of defenseman.

Foppa2118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 05:43 PM
  #156
Avs_19
Peter the Great
 
Avs_19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,497
vCash: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
With all due respect, this is a pretty simple math equation.

With EJ, Barrie, and Jones we'd have three RH D, which includes two prospects. Why not trade the lesser prospect in a package for a proven LHD to round out the top four.

You're still left with the same amount of defenseman.
Sorry, it's not that simple. I assume you're talking about Barrie when you say "trade the lesser prospect" but the problem is that you're not going to get a proven LHD for him unless you're adding a lot more to that package. Having EJ, Jones, and Barrie on the right side sets the team up well for the future. No need to trade a guy they spent years developing just because there's a shiny new toy (Jones) potentially coming in. Keep all three and find some other way to get another top four defenseman.

Avs_19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 05:47 PM
  #157
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I'm not surprised at all that it took Hunwick playing at his best to spark him.
I'm surprised it takes anyone.

And disappointed, if true.

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 05:50 PM
  #158
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,702
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
But please explain to me what makes Yandle multi dimensional, he's about as multi dimensional as Willie Mitchell or Rob Scuderi. Very good puck mover, really good on the PP, defensive liability whose shortcomings are somewhat disguised by a strong defensive system and situational usage. He won't have the same luxury in Denver if he ends up here and we can't afford to pay an arm and a leg for a guy who needs to be put in perfect situation to be sucessful.
He's not Zdeno Chara multi dimensional, but he brings more to the table than Barrie. He doesn't struggle as much with bigger forwards, or clearing the net. He has a pretty good hip check, and will get into a scrum if pushed around. He has the occasional fight. He's a vet leader for his team. He's an emotional player that brings a lot of energy. Plus the PP ability and offense that we're hoping Barrie can bring eventually.

He's not a defensive dynamo, but he's much more reliable than Barrie, and how many offensive defenseman are there in the league that are really that much better than average defensively. You just don't see many in the newer NHL, and a lot of the time the ones that do aren't 40+ point guys.

Not to mention, if you find a guy like that, it's next to impossible to get a team to give him up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
I think the best scenari that doesn't hurt the Avs and helps them both now and in the future is to trade Stastny for JBo. JBo is a guy who's really good defensively and he can move the puck, shift Barrie to the left side of the ice and draft Jones if we get a chance to do so.

Ice a defense that looks like this:

Barrie-EJ
JBo-Jones
Hejda-Elliott

Three youngsters and three guys who are all more than solid defensively and can cover for the mistakes they make as they're making a jump to becoming full time NHLers.
Why aren't you worried about trading Stastny for a guy with only one year left on his deal? That's holding out a lot of hope for Barrie to both be able to start chipping in points, and Jones to reach his potential.

Is Barrie gonna be better than Yandle? We can sign Bouwmeester as a UFA if we want to get him on a cheaper deal.

Also, people keep insisting that it's no problem for offensive guys like Barrie and Jones to play on their off side 5 on 5, but you just don't see offensive guys doing that. You see defensive guys, and you see mid to lower tier two way guys doing it because they're not handling the puck with it in the middle of the ice instead of closer to the boards like it would on your natural side. Or trying to hold pucks in at the blueline with their backhand, or trying to pull it from their backhand to their forehand at the blueline risking a turnover.

It waters down an offensive defenseman's bigest contribution. The defensive guys are just chipping pucks out, making short passes to forwards in their own zone, and not getting too crazy trying to hold pucks in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Also the claim that the 3rd pairing isn't all that important is a bit odd knowing how important was the Greene - Martinez pairing for the Kings in the last playoffs, or the Volchenkov - Harrold for the Devils. A strong 3rd pairing allows your top 4 to rest during games instead of burning up trying to cover for the 3rd pairing and in a gruelling playoff series defensive depth is of outmost importance.
These guys are not defensive dynamos. You need to have a solid 3rd pairing. You don't need to hold onto a fairly one dimensional offensive defenseman prospect, because you need him on the 3rd pairing. Some combination of O'Brien, Wilson, UFA, future prospects like Gaunce, or whoever is fine.

What you focus on is your top four, and especially your top pairing. That's why bringing in a LHD for EJ is so important, and with Jones you've got a very good 3 out 4 already, with time to add improve the rest of the unit if you need to on a deadline deal down the road.

Foppa2118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 05:54 PM
  #159
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,702
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Sorry, it's not that simple. I assume you're talking about Barrie when you say "trade the lesser prospect" but the problem is that you're not going to get a proven LHD for him unless you're adding a lot more to that package. Having EJ, Jones, and Barrie on the right side sets the team up well for the future. No need to trade a guy they spent years developing just because there's a shiny new toy (Jones) potentially coming in. Keep all three and find some other way to get another top four defenseman.
So add more. How are you guys so upset with the D unit this year, but so unwilling to part with a prospect to improve it? Are they gonna draft their way to a better D core? How long is that gonna take? Are they gonna rely on outbidding everyone for top UFA's? By the time Seth Jones is 21, EJ will be a UFA. It'll just be a revolving D core rebuild. They need to bring in someone 24+ to improve the D core, to go along with the age of the core, and that it takes D a few more years to start making an impact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I'm surprised it takes anyone.

And disappointed, if true.
Do you hold the same contempt for Duchene who is just as temperamental with his linemates. Are you disappointed it took PAP?

Or are you happy he's playing well, and they're having success together because that's what's best for the team?

Foppa2118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 05:54 PM
  #160
Avs_19
Peter the Great
 
Avs_19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,497
vCash: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I'm surprised it takes anyone.

And disappointed, if true.
I don't think it's true at all. People are exaggerating a couple of nice plays Hunwick made. EJ is playing better because he's moving his feet and trying to do more himself instead of relying on the garbage Sacco pairs him with.

Avs_19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 06:01 PM
  #161
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,702
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
I don't think it's true at all. People are exaggerating a couple of nice plays Hunwick made. EJ is playing better because he's moving his feet and trying to do more himself instead of relying on the garbage Sacco pairs him with.
I think it's the complete opposite. He always tries to do it by himself, because of the garbage he's paired up with, that's the problem.

EJ made more passes to his partner in or at the start of transition last game, than he may have all year. That was the key IMO. He needs a partner to help him in this way.

Foppa2118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 06:36 PM
  #162
Avs_19
Peter the Great
 
Avs_19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,497
vCash: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
So add more. How are you guys so upset with the D unit this year, but so unwilling to part with a prospect to improve it? Are they gonna draft their way to a better D core? How long is that gonna take? Are they gonna rely on outbidding everyone for top UFA's? By the time Seth Jones is 21, EJ will be a UFA. It'll just be a revolving D core rebuild. They need to bring in someone 24+ to improve the D core, to go along with the age of the core, and that it takes D a few more years to start making an impact.
First of all, Barrie isn't just "a prospect". He has shown that he's more than capable of playing significant minutes at the NHL level and he can be a big part of the D core moving forward. I agree with the "add more" part but keep Barrie and then add more. People are upset at the D unit this year because of the garbage that surrounds EJ and Barrie. Trading one of those two and adding a lot more to the package doesn't make much sense when you're a team that is sitting in dead last and not close to contending.

If you can trade Barrie and another piece to get Yandle, go for it. But that's not going to happen.

Avs_19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 10:02 PM
  #163
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
I don't think it's true at all. People are exaggerating a couple of nice plays Hunwick made. EJ is playing better because he's moving his feet and trying to do more himself instead of relying on the garbage Sacco pairs him with.
This is my belief as well.

Of course, we're only 4 periods into it. Maybe we should all hang tight and see if it sticks. Hopefully it does.

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-29-2013, 11:39 PM
  #164
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,702
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
First of all, Barrie isn't just "a prospect". He has shown that he's more than capable of playing significant minutes at the NHL level and he can be a big part of the D core moving forward. I agree with the "add more" part but keep Barrie and then add more. People are upset at the D unit this year because of the garbage that surrounds EJ and Barrie. Trading one of those two and adding a lot more to the package doesn't make much sense when you're a team that is sitting in dead last and not close to contending.

If you can trade Barrie and another piece to get Yandle, go for it. But that's not going to happen.
Exactly. If we're trading for a defenseman, they're going to ask for Barrie. He's still a prospect in my eyes. He should have been given more of a chance than Sacco has given him, but with all his rushes up ice, they haven't really resulted in many points.

That's not to say he will continue like this in the future, but you're still just relying on potential with him.

What realistic level is he gonna get to? A guy that put up 59 points? That's what Yandle is already. If Barrie ends up hitting his absolutely ceiling and does the same thing, and improves a little defensively, then so be it. You still have EJ, Jones, and either Yandle or whatever other prospects or UFA's you've added a few years from now, and you took a chance being proactive in addressing your biggest need.

They're not gonna bring in the kind of D needed without giving something up, and with EJ and potentially Jones in the scenario I first started this discussion with, he is expendable to bring in a LH guy that already is what you hope Barrie will get to.

With a Jones and Barrie combo, they are too young as defenseman to match up with the rest of the core. They're younger then the rest of the guys, and as defenseman they'll take an extra few years to have the same impact. So just keep Jones, and use Barrie to bring in a proven guy a few years older.

I know everyone wants to hold on to Barrie and Elliott until the last possible second so they're sure they're not Shattenkirk, but you don't make trades for key pieces you need by doing that. By that time, they won't have enough value in trade. And you'll have waited and waited to fix it by UFA or the draft, and most likely not brought in the guy you needed. Meanwhile everyone will be complaining about the D unit.

Foppa2118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 01:33 AM
  #165
jonesin 4 jones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 160
vCash: 500
If you want my very unexpert opinion on the matter, I think you guys are a bit too overly confidant that our prospects are going to become contributors in the big show. I see no way in hell that Barrie or Elliot will become top-pairing quality defenders. There is no reason we should rely on the two of them to be paired with EJ in the future. Maybe Barrie can for now but to build a quality team, I just don't see it. We would definitely be better off with a good (good being key) vet like Yandle than trying to rely too much on the kids.

That said, from what I've read in this thread, not one person has mentioned who I think is our best prospect, Duncan Siemens. I have never watched him and am basing it on what I've read here and his draft position so I may be wrong, but I think Duncan will have the biggest impact on our defense long term. RS did say (I think in the prospects thread) that Duncan could potentially be ready for the bigs next year. I would absolutely love Jones on this team too and having a Siemens-Jones pairing could be fun. I may be over rating the two a bit but whatever. I do like Wilson too though so idk. I don't want to rely too much on our rookies either. I want the scrubs gone though, especially Hunwick. I want him off this team.

Throw the rookies into the fire (assuming Jones drafted and no trades for a quality Dman. Yandle over Wilson would make a good D core, especially as the rookies mature. If we don't draft Seth, stick David in there instead and pretend we will be ok)

Wilson-EJ
Hejda-Barrie
Siemens-Jones
O'Brien

Let em grow. Upgrade Wilson soon. Hope for the best.

I feel hypocritical in this post. I probably am or maybe I'm just tired and ADD or something. Anyone want to give me a cookie?

jonesin 4 jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 07:02 AM
  #166
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Do you hold the same contempt for Duchene who is just as temperamental with his linemates. Are you disappointed it took PAP?

Or are you happy he's playing well, and they're having success together because that's what's best for the team?
Of course. But I think the divergence in our directions here, comes in that I never once attributed Duchene's excellent year to the existence of Parenteau. They have chemistry together, without a doubt, which is great, but the thought that Duchene raised his game only after Parenteau raised his, never crossed my mind until reading your post.

Rather, I attributed Duchene's excellent season to his rededicating himself to his conditioning, his stopping trying to do it alone on the ice and instead use his teammates, and overall maturity with which he approaches the game.

In other words, I give them both credit for their own good play. Like I'd give them either/both blame for their own poor play, if that were to transpire. Which in general, is how I also approach EJ's play, good or bad.

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 07:14 AM
  #167
Ivan13
Avs/Habs fan
 
Ivan13's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 13,487
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
He's not Zdeno Chara multi dimensional, but he brings more to the table than Barrie. He doesn't struggle as much with bigger forwards, or clearing the net. He has a pretty good hip check, and will get into a scrum if pushed around. He has the occasional fight. He's a vet leader for his team. He's an emotional player that brings a lot of energy. Plus the PP ability and offense that we're hoping Barrie can bring eventually.

He's not a defensive dynamo, but he's much more reliable than Barrie, and how many offensive defenseman are there in the league that are really that much better than average defensively. You just don't see many in the newer NHL, and a lot of the time the ones that do aren't 40+ point guys.

Not to mention, if you find a guy like that, it's next to impossible to get a team to give him up.
Barrie is far from a finished product and comparing him with Yandle is right now is both ill-advised and unfair to Tyson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Why aren't you worried about trading Stastny for a guy with only one year left on his deal? That's holding out a lot of hope for Barrie to both be able to start chipping in points, and Jones to reach his potential.

Is Barrie gonna be better than Yandle? We can sign Bouwmeester as a UFA if we want to get him on a cheaper deal.

Also, people keep insisting that it's no problem for offensive guys like Barrie and Jones to play on their off side 5 on 5, but you just don't see offensive guys doing that. You see defensive guys, and you see mid to lower tier two way guys doing it because they're not handling the puck with it in the middle of the ice instead of closer to the boards like it would on your natural side. Or trying to hold pucks in at the blueline with their backhand, or trying to pull it from their backhand to their forehand at the blueline risking a turnover.

It waters down an offensive defenseman's bigest contribution. The defensive guys are just chipping pucks out, making short passes to forwards in their own zone, and not getting too crazy trying to hold pucks in.



These guys are not defensive dynamos. You need to have a solid 3rd pairing. You don't need to hold onto a fairly one dimensional offensive defenseman prospect, because you need him on the 3rd pairing. Some combination of O'Brien, Wilson, UFA, future prospects like Gaunce, or whoever is fine.

What you focus on is your top four, and especially your top pairing. That's why bringing in a LHD for EJ is so important, and with Jones you've got a very good 3 out 4 already, with time to add improve the rest of the unit if you need to on a deadline deal down the road.
Yes I'm more comfortable trading for JBo this offseason under one condition and that's being able to negotiate a new contract with him before the trade happens, the same goes for the Flames and Stastny.

And you don't trade Elliott just because you assume he would be stuck on the 3rd pairing, having young cheap highly talented defenseman on your 3rd pairing isn't a bad thing and it's not like you won't be forced to play through injuries at some point in time. You play him there, let him build up his value and deal with him later on, there's absolutely no rush to trade him except if the return is pretty damn good.


Last edited by Ivan13: 03-30-2013 at 07:19 AM.
Ivan13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 07:48 AM
  #168
Colorado Avalanche
Registered User
 
Colorado Avalanche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lieto
Country: Finland
Posts: 15,466
vCash: 500
We shouldn't trade Barrie. I think he's going to be good one.

Colorado Avalanche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 08:51 AM
  #169
shadow1
Registered User
 
shadow1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 11,296
vCash: 1210
Tyson Barrie has played only 27 NHL games and has shown improvement not only from last year, but from the beginning of this season.

Erik Johnson has played over 300 games and we're still coming up with reasons why he hasn't taken the next step; it's always his coach, or his partner, or some other external factor.

If the Avalanche try to trade the former for a star defenseman to play with the latter, all that tells me is that they need a star defenseman in general.

shadow1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 09:07 AM
  #170
Freudian
Patty likes beef
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 28,989
vCash: 50
I think people should stop thinking about what they feel EJ should be and instead accept what he is. That way he stops being a 'problem' that has to be dealt with.

He's a pretty good defender on a great contract. Avs don't have to do anything but keep playing him. He's probably never going to be a 40+ point guy for us but he's going to be a mobile guy with excellent defense. The better players we get in the other five spots, the better Avs will be defensively. He and Tyson Barrie are the only two keepers we have. Entertaining the idea of trading any of them at this stage is just fan silliness.

The constant focus on EJ and the trade is bizarre.

Freudian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 09:22 AM
  #171
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,878
vCash: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I think people should stop thinking about what they feel EJ should be and instead accept what he is. That way he stops being a 'problem' that has to be dealt with.

He's a pretty good defender on a great contract. Avs don't have to do anything but keep playing him. He's probably never going to be a 40+ point guy for us but he's going to be a mobile guy with excellent defense. The better players we get in the other five spots, the better Avs will be defensively. He and Tyson Barrie are the only two keepers we have. Entertaining the idea of trading any of them at this stage is just fan silliness.

The constant focus on EJ and the trade is bizarre.
Agreed, I think it's still because of who they gave up, but I'm sorry, Kevin Shattenkirk, as GOOD of a player as he is, I don't believe that his Defensive game would have grown with the Avalanche. A lot of posters forget the missteps/rookie mistakes that he had, and they forget that he got out-muscled a lot in the corners for loose pucks.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still a huge Shattenkirk fan, but no one will convince me otherwise that he's not benefitting from a great system with Hitchcock, and playing with one of the better Defensemen in the league in Pietrangelo

__________________


Thought I'd been in love before, but in my heart I wanted more. Seems like all I really was doing was waiting for you - John Lennon/The Beatles
RockLobster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 09:46 AM
  #172
Avs71
Registered User
 
Avs71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,114
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Agreed, I think it's still because of who they gave up, but I'm sorry, Kevin Shattenkirk, as GOOD of a player as he is, I don't believe that his Defensive game would have grown with the Avalanche. A lot of posters forget the missteps/rookie mistakes that he had, and they forget that he got out-muscled a lot in the corners for loose pucks.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still a huge Shattenkirk fan, but no one will convince me otherwise that he's not benefitting from a great system with Hitchcock, and playing with one of the better Defensemen in the league in Pietrangelo
Just to add to that, Shattenkirk only has 12 points in his last 26 games. People got so tantalized by his quick start where he had 8 points in 7 games, (which wasn't surprising since he played pro hockey during the lockout and was game ready from day 1). After 8 games it looked like the Avs traded Erik Karlsson for Aaron Miller. It's like people think he would have been a lock for 50+ points on the Avs, when in reality, he still looks like he is going to be a ~45ish point puckmover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I think people should stop thinking about what they feel EJ should be and instead accept what he is. That way he stops being a 'problem' that has to be dealt with.
I don't think there is anything wrong with still thinking he's going to find a medium between his good defensive game that he has developed the last season and a hald, and bringing back some scoring ability from his first couple years. He is not far off from being a 35 point, strong defensively, minute eater which would be a very valuable defenceman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
Tyson Barrie has played only 27 NHL games and has shown improvement not only from last year, but from the beginning of this season.

Erik Johnson has played over 300 games and we're still coming up with reasons why he hasn't taken the next step; it's always his coach, or his partner, or some other external factor.

If the Avalanche try to trade the former for a star defenseman to play with the latter, all that tells me is that they need a star defenseman in general.
I think it is because Johnson has already showed offensive capabilities higher than what Barrie has shown, while doing it at a younger age. But I agree with the notion that Barrie shouldn't be traded. Last thing this fan base needs is the possibility of another high scoring puck mover being traded away.


Last edited by Avs71: 03-30-2013 at 09:52 AM.
Avs71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 10:05 AM
  #173
Pierce Hawthorne
Formerly Avsare1
 
Pierce Hawthorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Caverns of Draconis
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Avalanche View Post
We shouldn't trade Barrie. I think he's going to be good one.
Agreed.

Barrie will be better then Yandle in 3 years, Im confident in saying that.

Pierce Hawthorne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 10:26 AM
  #174
cyberfan
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,602
vCash: 500
Let's not forget that Barrie has 7 pts in his last 13 games (yes I know small sample) and is -2 while the Avs went 4-6-3 and were outscored 44-34 during that span. Defensively he has done a pretty good job.

As I said it is a small sample but I certainly would like to see more of him before we even think of trading him for an upgrade. In the end we might just be giving a better overall player than Shattenkirk.

cyberfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-30-2013, 10:55 AM
  #175
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
Let's not forget that Barrie has 7 pts in his last 13 games (yes I know small sample) and is -2 while the Avs went 4-6-3 and were outscored 44-34 during that span. Defensively he has done a pretty good job.

As I said it is a small sample but I certainly would like to see more of him before we even think of trading him for an upgrade. In the end we might just be giving a better overall player than Shattenkirk.
I believe the Avs should be very careful about trading offensive talented defensemen. Else they might find themselves having a tough time scoring from the blueline someday.

I'm especially hesitant to trade offensively talented defensemen, because right now the team doesn't have one producing anything outside of the player we're talking about trading (Barrie), and we've all seen what can happen when a team dumps one or two such players without proven guys coming in to replace them. I'm kind of surprised we're even discussing this, honestly (BTW, the second worst team in the NHL currently has 10 goals from its blueline - the Avs have 2).

If Elliott and Barrie are both good enough to play regularly in the NHL in a few years, I see nothing on earth wrong with both of them playing in the same lineup. It all depends on the rest of the defensive roster.

And BTW, I know Jones would be a hell of a catch for the Avs, but there's no guarantee that he'd be ready for NHL defense right off the bat.

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:33 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.