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M. Richards, J. Carter trade in retrospect

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Old
03-29-2013, 04:40 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry make 8.25M+ per year. Mike Richards makes 5.75 while Jeff Carter 5.2M.. That's a pretty huge discrepancy.

Both players would have made significantly more on the open market.
Its hard to compare anything to the 2 worst contracts in the NHL.

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03-29-2013, 04:43 PM
  #302
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All four of those guys have contracts that are just fine. When you win the Cup you deserve to get paid, simple as that. The Ducks and Kings both know that with the right team in place, those guys are capable of pushing the team on to a Cup win. Anyway, that guy in Vancouver wearing #1 has a far worse contract with a proven history of choking, so two worst contracts in the league, I don't think so.

The main problem with this trade at the moment is that Philadelphia is headed into the tank. So while they got good assets out of it, the wins aren't there.

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03-29-2013, 04:43 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry make 8.25M+ per year. Mike Richards makes 5.75 while Jeff Carter 5.2M.. That's a pretty huge discrepancy.

Both players would have made significantly more on the open market.
Getzlaf and Perry are much better players than Richards and Jeff Carter.

Richards was always a very good #2 guy and that's how he's paid.

Jeff Carter had one good season and outside of that has been a 65 point guy like Perry but Perry brings a bit more to the table.

Different CBA's too...

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03-29-2013, 04:49 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
Didn't you hear? Having a good 30 game stretch makes you a better player than a consistent 30 goal scorer
Even less, he started off slow even though he played in Europe, played great for a couple of weeks and then fell off again. Plus there that pesky little thing called defence...

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03-29-2013, 04:52 PM
  #305
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Voracek certainly has a lot more finish to his game this season than in seasons past and maybe he'll be a consistent 30 goal scorer in the future. That being said, I'm not ready to say he's better than Carter. Carter scored more goals in his rookie season than Voracek ever has in any season. Maybe he tops the 20 goal mark for the first time in this strike shortened one, but Voracek strikes me as a playmaker first, with some finish. Carter the exact opposite. Maybe one day Voracek will be more versatile than Carter, but currently he's not.

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03-29-2013, 05:01 PM
  #306
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Here is my take on these two super trades.

After a disappointing end to the 2011 season (being swept by Boston), Snider put pressure on Holmgren to get a goalie. Homer knew to get a goalie, he would need cap space. Looking at his team, Flyers management recognized the strength of their team was defense. Pronger, Timonen, Coburn, Carle, and Meszaros (who had a fantastic season) was the core they wanted to move forward with...the one thing missing was a goalie. Bryz was the best on the market, so that was the guy they went for.

So where do they get the caproom? They werent going to move a defenseman, for the reasons stated above. Briere was the biggest contract, but his NMC complicated things. Really the only option was to move either Richards and/or Carter. It seemed unthinkable, but here is what I think their reasoning was:

1.) We need cap space, these assets are the biggest and easiest to move
2.) We are confident in our defense and new goalie, we can afford to lose scoring
3.) We have the opportunity to address our other concern in these trades (size on the wing - Simmonds/Vorecek) and get great value back
4.) Locker room problems were likely considered.

So with that, the moves were made. They lost two key pieces, but gained their goalie and enough young offensive talent that they believed could score enough and their defense would do the rest. Jagr also could provide veteran presence and G/JVR are ready for the next step.

Seemed like a good plan, except two problems emerged. The first is obvious...Pronger getting hurt, which had a big ripple effect on their defense. The other problem was the team was hurt defensively by the loss of Richards and Carter because the youth up front was not as defensively responsible. So what happened? Things flipped. Offense began to be the teams strength and defense the weakness (with goaltending to suffer because of it). This past offseason, Homer thought he could fix this team and keep them the contender he thought they were when with Pronger by signing Weber. Unfortunately, it didnt work out.

So where that basically leaves the Flyers is as a rebuilding team with a bright future. Things might not have worked out for Homer the way he planned, but he still has a great looking young core to build around (plus another key piece likely added in the draft).

Bottom line: These trades will always be debated, but I give Holmgren a lot of credit for being super creative in order to appease his bosses demands. I have no doubt all the pieces involved in these deals will get the Flyers closer to a cup in the years to come, which was the ultimate goal...even if it takes longer than anticipated.

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03-29-2013, 05:23 PM
  #307
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It's pretty obvious flyer lost this thread big time. ( even if they got some good asset in return )

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03-29-2013, 05:53 PM
  #308
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Carter ending up in LA has nothing to do with the Flyers trading him to Columbus. The only purpose that serves all the people here in Philly who kept calling Carter a playoff choker and "doesn't care since he gets hurt" all look dumb

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03-29-2013, 06:26 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Carter ending up in LA has nothing to do with the Flyers trading him to Columbus. The only purpose that serves all the people here in Philly who kept calling Carter a playoff choker and "doesn't care since he gets hurt" all look dumb

He wasn't hurt in '09 and '11 and still didn't do jack ****. It doesn't make anybody look dumb.


His first good playoff performance was this past year and that's that.

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03-29-2013, 06:37 PM
  #310
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Funny that fans are saying Philly lost the Carter trade. Last year and this year Voracek has out produced Carter. AND they had the upside of Couts. AND a 3rd round pick the finished 3nd in OHL scoring this year. This is a trade that will keep on giving for Philly.

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03-29-2013, 06:37 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller View Post
He wasn't hurt in '09 and '11 and still didn't do jack ****. It doesn't make anybody look dumb.


His first good playoff performance was this past year and that's that.
The point was that people said that he was soft and disappeared in the playoffs, and wasn't clutch and all that jazz and it proved everyone wrong. And if that was the Flyers evaluation, they were proven wrong too.

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03-29-2013, 07:00 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
The point was that people said that he was soft and disappeared in the playoffs, and wasn't clutch and all that jazz and it proved everyone wrong. And if that was the Flyers evaluation, they were proven wrong too.
Took him long enough.

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03-29-2013, 08:32 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by mibs View Post
So Flyers do that trade again knowing they would be without Pronger a couple year later?
I think the Flyers' brass would absolutely do them again.

And that's the issue I always had with the trades... there is a massive disconnect between trading 2 of your best 3 forwards for futures and using the cap money to sign a 30 year old goalie to a crippling contract while keeping your soon to be 37 year old franchise defenseman, who is coming off a very serious back injury / surgery (to the point where he couldn't skate) and his least productive season since the late 90s. Not to mention the decision to also keep 36 year old Kimmo Timonen and 34 year old Daniel Briere.

It should've been painfully obvious to a good GM that Chris Pronger and Kimmo Timonen and even Daniel Briere likely would no longer be with the club or at the very least would be shells of their former selves by the time the guys they acquired in the Richie and Carter trades were in their primes and hence they should've been dealt to complete a proper rebuild. Had they done so, this team might currently be stacked w/ a few more top forward prospects, and 1-2 top defensive prospects (instead of the zero we have now). Unfortunately, it seems like our delusional owner and delusional GM actually believed that they could replace two franchise centers with rookies and young players, plug Bryz in, plug a 40 year old Jagr who hadn't played in the NHL for quite some time in and actually be a legit cup contender.

Clearly we've all seen now how that "plan" (if you can even call it that) worked out (or rather didn't).

But that's always been the problem with Holmgren; no long-term vision. Everything is a short-sighted overreaction to what happened last season. Hopefully he's learned from those mistakes and he'll sell at this deadline, but I kind of doubt it.

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03-29-2013, 08:45 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by cyclones22 View Post
Voracek certainly has a lot more finish to his game this season than in seasons past and maybe he'll be a consistent 30 goal scorer in the future. That being said, I'm not ready to say he's better than Carter. Carter scored more goals in his rookie season than Voracek ever has in any season. Maybe he tops the 20 goal mark for the first time in this strike shortened one, but Voracek strikes me as a playmaker first, with some finish. Carter the exact opposite. Maybe one day Voracek will be more versatile than Carter, but currently he's not.
Voracek isn't a goalscorer. Carter is. It's like me saying that Voracek has a ton more assists. Of course, that's his game.

Voracek is involved in more goals than Carter. When the Flyers finally rebound, the gap will get wider.

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03-29-2013, 10:20 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Voracek isn't a goalscorer. Carter is. It's like me saying that Voracek has a ton more assists. Of course, that's his game.

Voracek is involved in more goals than Carter. When the Flyers finally rebound, the gap will get wider.
I don't know where you're disagreeing with my assessment here. I said they're the exact opposite. As far as Voracek being involved in more goals, yes this year he has been. But you're also talking about someone whose career high in points is 50. Yes, he's on pace to eclipse that this year in a strike-shortened season and he's still young. Good for him.

When I'm talking about versatility, I'm talking the ability to play wing and center. Carter wins almost 53% of his draws. Plays on the PP and the PK. Voracek can't play center nor does he play on the PK. I'd liken Voracek's role to Justin Williams' on the Kings. Justin is the unsung hero of the Kings first line. Playmaking wing with a scoring touch, but doesn't play much defense and is rarely on the PK.

It's interesting the philosphical differences of what different fanbases value. We Kings fans value well rounded play out of our elite players. Our top 4 forwards are part of the top 6 PK'ers. Looking at Philly, only Giroux is in your top 6, unless you count Couturier among your best players now. I see a lot of tossing around of point totals, like that's all that matters. If that's how you define victory, then by all means. But there are two sides of the rink and playing well in both is what made the Kings champions and what makes them contenders again this year.

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03-30-2013, 03:15 AM
  #316
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I love how flyers fans are obsessed with simmonds work ethic and heart, but they had some dude named mike richards right before him.

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03-30-2013, 04:25 AM
  #317
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I love how flyers fans are obsessed with simmonds work ethic and heart, but they had some dude named mike richards right before him.

Sherlock Holmes.

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03-30-2013, 04:46 AM
  #318
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The trade worked out pretty well for all 3 teams

Philly: Got good return for what essentially was the trades they had to do....supposedly. Obviously Richards and Carter can never win them 16 playoff games, 14 is the max they could have done in Philly....

Kings: Richard/Carter/Voynov was important to the cup run. Schenn/Simmonds/Johnson and likely we would have not made the playoff

BJ: Turned a guy that essentially didn't want to stay there into a blue chip blue liner. IMO the trade blew them out of mediocrity zone and into full rebuild...which isn't bad thing, they can now concentrate on building really strong team without having to "please" anyone

Even the Rangers are happy because they got Rick Nash from the Columbus explosion. (in HF it is required by law to mention Rangers or Pens or Toronto in your thread)

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03-30-2013, 04:55 AM
  #319
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Carter for Voracek, Couturier, Cousins - Philadelphia got young talented winger, who is having his breakout year, prospect with great upside, who is already contributing at NHL level and another solid prospect, Columbus wanted 1C and got a guy, who never wanted to be there. Flyers won the trade and it isn't even close.
Richards for Simmonds, B. Schenn and 2nd round pick - while Simmonds and Schenn are both good players, who still have big potential and 2nd round pick got traded for another solid addition in Grossman, the ultimate goal in NHL is to win the Stanley Cup. Simmonds and Schenn could be Hall of Famers at the end of their careers and there still isn't way, that the Kings would lost this trade. Kings all the way.
Carter for Johnson - see above. But that said, while there really wasn't a way for Jackets to recover completely, they traded primadonna and a guy, who was worth less than nothing in their uniform for a guy, who definitely cares for the team and will hopefully help the franchise to turn around, so props to them.

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03-30-2013, 05:13 AM
  #320
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Carter and Richards obviously were a major part of the kings winning the cup. You guys can argue stats until you are blue in the face.

Right now philly isn't even going to make the playoffs.

We won't know who wins these trades for several years.

Obviously the kings "won" this trade short term, but it remains to be seen who wins it in the long run.

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03-30-2013, 07:09 AM
  #321
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Took him long enough.
Yeah, that's what they said about Steve Yzerman too.

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03-30-2013, 09:37 AM
  #322
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Sherlock Holmes.
You have a fondness for fake things don't you?

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