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03-29-2013, 09:44 PM
  #501
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Just as an aside, I don't see why Orr couldn't score 120. The next closest scorer had 99 points... that's comparable to today. If anything Orr might've actually done better.
I'm gonna have to disagree. Bobby Orr was a pioneer. Today, there's a lot of Dmen that can do what he did. Players have evolved, and again, the game is a lot more different today, along with the competition.

Bobby Orr marked the sport. No question about that. But I seriously doubt any Dman can reach 100pts in today's league. Heck, only a few forwards are able to reach that amount.

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03-29-2013, 09:47 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Again, I really don't know what you're answering to..

The contract is bad. It should have been a long term deal for cheap instead of a bridge deal. Simple, and clear. Not sure why you have such a hard time admitting this was a mistake.
This is easy to respond to.

I have a hard time admitting that this was a mistake because I firmly believe that it was not a mistake.

You would have a valid point if Subban was playing like crap and was sulking with a bad attitude and being a distraction.

But he's not.

I am very confident that Bergevin sat down with Subban and showed him some numbers regarding his next contract. He signed for a reason, right?

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03-29-2013, 09:50 PM
  #503
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I'm gonna have to disagree. Bobby Orr was a pioneer. Today, there's a lot of Dmen that can do what he did. Players have evolved, and again, the game is a lot more different today, along with the competition.

Bobby Orr marked the sport. No question about that. But I seriously doubt any Dman can reach 100pts in today's league. Heck, only a few forwards are able to reach that amount.
Players like Crosby and Malkin put up 100 ish points and they are just as dominant as Gretzky or Mario. Different league.

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03-30-2013, 10:22 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
This is easy to respond to.

I have a hard time admitting that this was a mistake because I firmly believe that it was not a mistake.

You would have a valid point if Subban was playing like crap and was sulking with a bad attitude and being a distraction.

But he's not.

I am very confident that Bergevin sat down with Subban and showed him some numbers regarding his next contract. He signed for a reason, right?
Man, you have an upside down way of looking at this scenario.

The point of this bridge deal was to see if PK could take it to the next level, to see if he can really step it up and grow as a player by changing some things.

What some people were saying is that there was no doubt about whether or not PK could reach that other level. Those guys are the ones that wanted him signed longterm right now because we could get away with signing him to a longterm cheap deal, as opposed to signing him to bridge+huge deal after.

Now if PK stank, then management would have been protected. They only had him for 1 1/2 signed, and on the next deal, he wouldn't be breaking the bank. That's the whole point of the bridge deal. I don't think you understand this contract.


How can Bergevin have shown PK some numbers about a future contract when the kid hadn't even played a game yet?? You sign contracts based on performance and potential. PK had not played a game yet, so no, I don't think Bergevin showed PK any number as to a potential future deal when Bergevin himself said he wanted to see certain things from PK. I have no doubt that he told PK to sign a smaller deal now and then he'll get his big raise, but I disagree with that philosophy for PK.

The only way this turns out not being a mistake is if Bergevin can extend PK over the summer to a cheap deal. But no matter what the extension is, it will still be a higher price than it would have been before the year.

PK signed because the season was on going, it was a short one, he was getting bad press, management didn't seem to budge, and the team was winning. It has nothing to do with Bergevin showing him potential future income, and no I don't think he showed him any numbers. That makes no sense.

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03-30-2013, 10:26 AM
  #505
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I'm gonna have to disagree. Bobby Orr was a pioneer. Today, there's a lot of Dmen that can do what he did. Players have evolved, and again, the game is a lot more different today, along with the competition.

Bobby Orr marked the sport. No question about that. But I seriously doubt any Dman can reach 100pts in today's league. Heck, only a few forwards are able to reach that amount.
You have to normalize things though, Bobby Orr would've trained a lot harder in this day and age... he'd be stronger, faster and he would've had a lot longer career and avoided a lot of the knee problems caused by poor surgery techniques of the time.

I remember Lemieux coming back as an old man and completely dominating the game. I don't see any reason why Bobby Orr couldn't have done the same thing now. You're talking about a guy who many people consider the best player of all-time. And Orr wasn't playing in the high flying 80s, the scoring of that era wasn't much different than it is today. Next highest player didn't even crack 100 points.

As for the game being different today, the game is different in large part due to him. I have a hard time believing that he wouldn't dominate in today's game.


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03-30-2013, 10:32 AM
  #506
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Man, you have an upside down way of looking at this scenario.

The point of this bridge deal was to see if PK could take it to the next level, to see if he can really step it up and grow as a player by changing some things.

What some people were saying is that there was no doubt about whether or not PK could reach that other level. Those guys are the ones that wanted him signed longterm right now because we could get away with signing him to a longterm cheap deal, as opposed to signing him to bridge+huge deal after.

Now if PK stank, then management would have been protected. They only had him for 1 1/2 signed, and on the next deal, he wouldn't be breaking the bank. That's the whole point of the bridge deal. I don't think you understand this contract.


How can Bergevin have shown PK some numbers about a future contract when the kid hadn't even played a game yet?? You sign contracts based on performance and potential. PK had not played a game yet, so no, I don't think Bergevin showed PK any number as to a potential future deal when Bergevin himself said he wanted to see certain things from PK. I have no doubt that he told PK to sign a smaller deal now and then he'll get his big raise, but I disagree with that philosophy for PK.

The only way this turns out not being a mistake is if Bergevin can extend PK over the summer to a cheap deal. But no matter what the extension is, it will still be a higher price than it would have been before the year.

PK signed because the season was on going, it was a short one, he was getting bad press, management didn't seem to budge, and the team was winning. It has nothing to do with Bergevin showing him potential future income, and no I don't think he showed him any numbers. That makes no sense.

I think this sums up the situation perfectly.

Bergevin took a gamble, and he's probably going to lose it. That being said, I don't really have an issue with paying Subban what he's worth - and if he is in contention for the Norris by the end of the year, Bergevin will have no choice but to pay him close to Karlsson/Doughty money when we could have had him long term under a 5M cap-hit. If OEL signs at 5,5M, I can easily see Subban pushing the 6,5M, and there would be nothing wrong with that.

What bugs me is that we could have had him for much less, and the actual turn of event was something a large portion of Habs fans saw coming.

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03-30-2013, 10:37 AM
  #507
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There's another way to look at it too.. Does Subban have the season he's having if he got his way in contract talks? He had something to prove to Bergevin and management this year

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03-30-2013, 10:42 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
I think this sums up the situation perfectly.

Bergevin took a gamble, and he's probably going to lose it. That being said, I don't really have an issue with paying Subban what he's worth - and if he is in contention for the Norris by the end of the year, Bergevin will have no choice but to pay him close to Karlsson/Doughty money when we could have had him long term under a 5M cap-hit. If OEL signs at 5,5M, I can easily see Subban pushing the 6,5M, and there would be nothing wrong with that.

What bugs me is that we could have had him for much less, and the actual turn of event was something a large portion of Habs fans saw coming.
Yup, short term gain for long term pain. If MB is smart he gives him a raise now and signs him long term for what he was asking for PLUS and additional three mil for his brilliant performance this year.

If PK agrees, run don't walk and sign him.
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There's another way to look at it too.. Does Subban have the season he's having if he got his way in contract talks? He had something to prove to Bergevin and management this year
Yes he does.

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03-30-2013, 10:46 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
I think this sums up the situation perfectly.

Bergevin took a gamble, and he's probably going to lose it. That being said, I don't really have an issue with paying Subban what he's worth - and if he is in contention for the Norris by the end of the year, Bergevin will have no choice but to pay him close to Karlsson/Doughty money when we could have had him long term under a 5M cap-hit. If OEL signs at 5,5M, I can easily see Subban pushing the 6,5M, and there would be nothing wrong with that.

What bugs me is that we could have had him for much less, and the actual turn of event was something a large portion of Habs fans saw coming.
It's a bet he is most likely happy to lose. Kind of like insurance.

You are only upset because you want management to make every single right call with the benefit of hindsight. Nobody thought Subban would pull Norris performance level. Who can say said performance would or wouldn't have happened if Subban had been signed long term?

Now look these upside and downsides:

Down: we will have to pay him 1-2 M per years more than if we signed him this summer for 4.5-5.5

Upside: we have more capflexibility this upcoming summer. We will also have Subban signed for a longer period in the end. His 2nd "big money" contract will only happen around his 29-30s
..

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03-30-2013, 10:50 AM
  #510
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It's a bet he is most likely happy to lose. Kind of like insurance.

You are only upset because you want management to make every single right call with the benefit of hindsight. Nobody thought Subban would pull Norris performance level. Who can say said performance would or wouldn't have happened if Subban had been signed long term?

Now look these upside and downsides:

Down: we will have to pay him 1-2 M per years more than if we signed him this summer for 4.5-5.5

Upside: we have more capflexibility this upcoming summer. We will also have Subban signed for a longer period in the end. His 2nd "big money" contract will only happen around his 29-30s
..
It's not hindsight. Many of us were calling for the extension back when this was going on. Management should've realized that he was a legit number one and well worth the 5 mil he was asking for. It was a very reasonable amount and we totally screwed PK over with the ridiculous lowball offer that he wound up accepting.

Please don't sit here and pretend like this wasn't being said two months ago because the posts are there for all to see. MB has done a good job so far but that was dumb on his part.

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03-30-2013, 10:55 AM
  #511
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It's a bet he is most likely happy to lose. Kind of like insurance.

Who can say said performance would or wouldn't have happened if Subban had been signed long term?You are only upset because you want management to make every single right call with the benefit of hindsight. Nobody thought Subban would pull Norris performance level.

Quite the opposite actually. Go dig up these Subban threads prior to him signing his contract and you'll see a lot - probably the majority of posters on here - wanted Bergevin to give him the longterm contract NOW based on his perceived upside. Obviously, nobody knew for sure he was going to be that good that soon, but most people knew he had it in him.

I haven't changed my opinion in hindsight, it has been my opinion ever since that bridge contract idea was brought up, and many many more Habs fans shared that opinion. Most were willing to give him something along the line of 6 years 30 millions. As it turns out, we'll probably have to pay him closer to 40 millions for the same 6 years contract.

But like I said, I don't think this is a bad thing. If I were in Bergevin's shoes, I would happily pay Subban what he's worth. However, we could have had him for less. Rumors were Subban was looking for a longterm deal at a 4,5M cap-hit I believe.

A similar situation would be Letang in Pittsburgh. Had Shero gone for the bridge contract instead of giving him an extension right after his ELC, they probably wouldn't have been able to bring pieces like Morrow and Iginla to their team.

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03-30-2013, 10:58 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's not hindsight. Many of us were calling for the extension back when this was going on. Management should've realized that he was a legit number one and well worth the 5 mil he was asking for. It was a very reasonable amount and we totally screwed PK over with the ridiculous lowball offer that he wound up accepting.

Please don't sit here and pretend like this wasn't being said two months ago because the posts are there for all to see. MB has done a good job so far but that was dumb on his part.
Nobody claimed he would already competing for the Norris. That is a happy turn of events, and a lower contract relieved Subban of some pressure that was impeding his play.

Subban performs best when it comes naturally to him, not when he is forcing plays. Subban started on the 3rd pairing this year, and gained tons of maturity to achieve his current level of play. Who's to say the heavy pressure of a big contract wouldn't have lingered?

I don't doubt Subban's motivation. Nor do I doubt his capacity to step up in times of need. I only doubt his capacity to master himself when things aren't going his way. He used to try too much, and it bit him in the ass.

It's the Taxi Driver dilemma all over again.

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03-30-2013, 11:05 AM
  #513
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Nobody claimed he would already competing for the Norris. That is a happy turn of events, and a lower contract relieved Subban of some pressure that was impeding his play.
Actually I did. Feel free to check my posts. I've been saying he was going to be a Norris contender for a while now. As soon as this year? Maybe not but it was going to happen. He's improved year over year and despite last year's low point totals he still played really well. After last season you had to know he was going to have a great career.

Even if it didn't though, he was certainly well worth the 5 mil he was asking for. It was more than fair.
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Subban performs best when it comes naturally to him, not when he is forcing plays. Subban started on the 3rd pairing this year, and gained tons of maturity to achieve his current level of play. Who's to say the heavy pressure of a big contract wouldn't have lingered?
I don't doubt Subban's motivation. Nor do I doubt his capacity to step up in times of need. I only doubt his capacity to master himself when things aren't going his way. He used to try too much, and it bit him in the ass.

It's the Taxi Driver dilemma all over again.
There's no basis to make this claim. I see no reason to believe he would've been any different. And even if he played like he did last year I'd have been more than happy paying him 5 mil a year.

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03-30-2013, 11:17 AM
  #514
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Actually I did. Feel free to check my posts. I've been saying he was going to be a Norris contender for a while now. As soon as this year? Maybe not but it was going to happen. He's improved year over year and despite last year's low point totals he still played really well. After last season you had to know he was going to have a great career.
Hence why I said ALREADY. That he would ALREADY be competing for the Norris.

ALREADY
ALREADY

Nobody saw that coming. I knew he'd get there, but this year is a pleasant surprise. Clearly, Therrien knows what he's doing and MB did everything just right.

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03-30-2013, 02:23 PM
  #515
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Sure it's certainly possible. It's certainly possible that it would change absolutely nothing too. You can believe whatever you choose.

But there are different types of athletes out there and PK does not fit the mold of the complacent ones.
The younger guys rarely do fit that mold, because they haven't achieved that pinnacle. They are like rabbits with a carrot dangling in front of them.

Your first paragraph is basically what I'm getting at. To automatically assume that PK would be progressing at this level even if he got super long term deal is just wrong.

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03-30-2013, 02:25 PM
  #516
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http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/201...n-with-bruins/


Bourque talking about Subban

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03-30-2013, 02:38 PM
  #517
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Just as an aside, I don't see why Orr couldn't score 120. The next closest scorer had 99 points... that's comparable to today. If anything Orr might've actually done better.
People can talk all they want to about "changed eras" and "pioneers", but Orr was simply a unique player who has no peers. From 1969-70 through 1974-75, Orr won two scoring titles and I'm pretty certain had the highest total points of any player over that 5 year period-as a d-man. He was a marvelous defensive defenseman, could fight, and could completely take control of a game.

The only defenseman who I've ever seen that even comes close to him was Paul Coffey-and only on the offensive end and even so, not near as good. Making comparisons to Orr-on any level-is unfair to the player who is being compared. Always.

He did this on knees which were basically wrecked by the time he was 25 years old.

Had Orr been able to have his knee injuries repaired with modern techniques, I find it highly unlikely that there would be any debate whatsoever as to whom the greatest player of all time was. I'm a huge Gretzky fan, but The Great One didn't bring as much to the table as Orr did.

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03-30-2013, 04:16 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
I think this sums up the situation perfectly.

Bergevin took a gamble, and he's probably going to lose it. That being said, I don't really have an issue with paying Subban what he's worth - and if he is in contention for the Norris by the end of the year, Bergevin will have no choice but to pay him close to Karlsson/Doughty money when we could have had him long term under a 5M cap-hit. If OEL signs at 5,5M, I can easily see Subban pushing the 6,5M, and there would be nothing wrong with that.

What bugs me is that we could have had him for much less, and the actual turn of event was something a large portion of Habs fans saw coming.
I see it differently. In my mind, everyone wins. MB was reticent to give a big contract to someone he wasn't sure could mature proportionately to his skill level and achieve that next level. With this bridge contract, I'm sure there's no longer any doubt.

As of the 14-15 season, PK gets the term and money he's proven he deserves and MTL is getting the elite player they're paying for. Ok fine: MB forgoes the gamble with the possibility of a steal at maybe $5M per, but such is the nature of a gamble. Sometimes you guess right, sometimes you don't.

I don't think an extra $1M to $1.5M/season, longterm is cause for any serious concern. We get our Suberman and PK gets his fortune. Everyone wins!

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03-30-2013, 04:36 PM
  #519
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I see it differently. In my mind, everyone wins. MB was reticent to give a big contract to someone he wasn't sure could mature proportionately to his skill level and achieve that next level. With this bridge contract, I'm sure there's no longer any doubt.

As of the 14-15 season, PK gets the term and money he's proven he deserves and MTL is getting the elite player they're paying for. Ok fine: MB forgoes the gamble with the possibility of a steal at maybe $5M per, but such is the nature of a gamble. Sometimes you guess right, sometimes you don't.

I don't think an extra $1M to $1.5M/season, longterm is cause for any serious concern. We get our Suberman and PK gets his fortune. Everyone wins!
Subban's performance of last year could have already earned him 4.5-5M. He has already shown that he improved each year. A lot of our fans here see that and feel quite comfortable with a long term contract with around 5M per year. In about 2/3 three years, the Habs is going to be a Cup contender and MB will need that extra 1-2M cap space.

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03-30-2013, 04:46 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You have to normalize things though, Bobby Orr would've trained a lot harder in this day and age... he'd be stronger, faster and he would've had a lot longer career and avoided a lot of the knee problems caused by poor surgery techniques of the time.

I remember Lemieux coming back as an old man and completely dominating the game. I don't see any reason why Bobby Orr couldn't have done the same thing now. You're talking about a guy who many people consider the best player of all-time. And Orr wasn't playing in the high flying 80s, the scoring of that era wasn't much different than it is today. Next highest player didn't even crack 100 points.

As for the game being different today, the game is different in large part due to him. I have a hard time believing that he wouldn't dominate in today's game.
Oh I never said he wouldn't dominate, just that I don't think he would score 120pts because not even the dominating forwards really do that today. But it's a pointless debate really as we'll never know. I mean, how many points would Beliveau score today? Lafleur? Richard?
As for him scoring more than the next, the following year Esposito won with 133, following year 130, 145, etc..

Also, as I said, Bobby Orr was unique. There was no other Dman in the game like him at the time. Nowadays, offensive Dman aren't unique. Every team has one and opponents are prepared.

In any event, I'm sure Orr would be one of the best Dman in the game today. I just don't think he'd have the same point totals.

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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Nobody claimed he would already competing for the Norris. That is a happy turn of events, and a lower contract relieved Subban of some pressure that was impeding his play.

Subban performs best when it comes naturally to him, not when he is forcing plays. Subban started on the 3rd pairing this year, and gained tons of maturity to achieve his current level of play. Who's to say the heavy pressure of a big contract wouldn't have lingered?

I don't doubt Subban's motivation. Nor do I doubt his capacity to step up in times of need. I only doubt his capacity to master himself when things aren't going his way. He used to try too much, and it bit him in the ass.

It's the Taxi Driver dilemma all over again.
That's pretty much the last little argument anybody can hold on to for that bridge contract, that it ''relieved PK of some pressure''. There's really no proof of that.

PK did not gain a ton of maturity by playing on the 3rd pairing. He wasn't used on the PK and got 2nd wave PP time. That was a waste. I mean, for a few games to get back into the groove, fine, but he was there for a long time. It's only when Diaz got injured that PK was moved up, and surprise surprise, he's been excellent.

People have to stop with this BS that PK wouldn't be where he is today if he had signed a long deal and got more minutes right away. This is a baseless argument.

The reason why he used to try too much last year is because we were a garbage team. The DD line was the only productive one. The rest was crap. So ya, he'll rush it up more, he'll figure he'll try it out. He was also a sophomore, and if you actually followed the kid over the years, you know that he develops really fast. So this current success wouldn't come as a surprise. It certainly isn't to me.

Also, PK had already proved capable of efficiently shutting top opponents as a #1 here. I emphasize on the word efficiently. He already had earned himself a 4M deal imo. There really wasn't a reason as to why he didn't deserve that. I don't think there is one Hab fan that actually thought PK would sign for a 2.5M cap hit. Nobody believed that.
So, unless PK regressed, you already had a strong D. I don't see why PK had to prove that he could be a Norris candidate before getting a longer deal, that's retarded.

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The younger guys rarely do fit that mold, because they haven't achieved that pinnacle. They are like rabbits with a carrot dangling in front of them.

Your first paragraph is basically what I'm getting at. To automatically assume that PK would be progressing at this level even if he got super long term deal is just wrong.
What's also wrong is to automatically assume that PK wouldn't be progressing at this level.

Actually, what you're suggesting is wrong, what I am isn't. Your point is that PK's progression is based on his salary. That well, more money=more pressure, and so, this could have hurt PK. In theory, you're right it could but nothing ever lead us to believe PK crumbles under pressure. Heck, he was called up in the POs as a rookie and did remarkably well. Since then, he's solidify his role as a #1 Dman in the NHL, playing in Mtl. So the idea that he'd crumble because he's making a couple million more is entirely subjective and based on absolutely nothing. Just an impression or thought of yours really.

I look at the way PK has played over the years here, I look at his work ethic both on and off the ice, I look at the way he has progressed over the years since junior, and it all points to having one very serious, focused, and exceptional talent that progresses at a much quick pace than most.

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03-30-2013, 04:54 PM
  #521
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Hence why I said ALREADY. That he would ALREADY be competing for the Norris.

ALREADY
ALREADY

Nobody saw that coming. I knew he'd get there, but this year is a pleasant surprise. Clearly, Therrien knows what he's doing and MB did everything just right.
That's fair enough.

Again though, even if he played like last season or improved on it slightly it was still a bad move on MB's part. I'm not saying MB's a bad GM but I really disagreed with this and it's going to come back to haunt him for sure. We're already seeing this now.

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03-30-2013, 05:10 PM
  #522
jwolf
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Subban's performance of last year could have already earned him 4.5-5M. He has already shown that he improved each year. A lot of our fans here see that and feel quite comfortable with a long term contract with around 5M per year. In about 2/3 three years, the Habs is going to be a Cup contender and MB will need that extra 1-2M cap space.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. MB could've gotten PK signed longterm for cheaper than he will in a year's time, I just don't think it's a huge deal. I get why he wanted to wait and find it hard to fault him a whole lot. Like you, I wanted him signed longterm ASAP, but I didn't go ape when he forced a bridge deal on him.

I guess my point is this: as far as GM transgressions go, this barely registers on the Richter Scale.

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03-30-2013, 05:11 PM
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I think this sums up the situation perfectly.

Bergevin took a gamble, and he's probably going to lose it. That being said, I don't really have an issue with paying Subban what he's worth - and if he is in contention for the Norris by the end of the year, Bergevin will have no choice but to pay him close to Karlsson/Doughty money when we could have had him long term under a 5M cap-hit. If OEL signs at 5,5M, I can easily see Subban pushing the 6,5M, and there would be nothing wrong with that.

What bugs me is that we could have had him for much less, and the actual turn of event was something a large portion of Habs fans saw coming.
bottom line was PK had to prove he had matured

so what if he gets Doughty money , as long as its with us , no issue here

if Gorges makes nearly 4 how do you not give PK 7 , come on ?

he is 10x more valuable to this team than JG

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03-30-2013, 05:13 PM
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Don't get me wrong - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. MB could've gotten PK signed longterm for cheaper than he will in a year's time, I just don't think it's a huge deal. I get why he wanted to wait and find it hard to fault him a whole lot. Like you, I wanted him signed longterm ASAP, but I didn't go ape when he forced a bridge deal on him.

I guess my point is this: as far as GM transgressions go, this barely registers on the Richter Scale.
GOOD POINT

question is this and we will never know ? what did he Meehan want on a long term deal ? My gut says 30 over 5

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03-30-2013, 05:18 PM
  #525
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Those of you arguing that we should have signed Subban to a long-term deal would make terrible GMs. Now that you have seen Subban playing better than he ever has, you are saying you wanted Bergevin to sign him long-term all along. Of course you did, everyone wants PK Subban as a Hab forever; he is exciting and has played well for his first couple seasons.

But you STILL have the gift of hindsight, no matter what you say. If Subban was having a rough season you would hide and say nothing, but now you're all loud and obnoxious with your ideas. The fact is that the bridge contract was the better idea. Subban looked good for two seasons, but wasn't outstanding. He couldn't get more than 38 points in two seasons, and took the most minor penalties on the team. He was also benched a couple times too. He is still young and had lots to prove.

Look at the Tyler Myers example, who proved himself for three years, one of which he had 48 points in 82 games (better than Subban has ever had in his NHL career) and now look where he is? Buffalo certainly regrets skipping out on that bridge contract. The same could be the case for Subban. You never know how a player will turn out, even when they are playing well. They are still young and anything can happen.

Stop denying that all your arguments are 100% based on hindsight and nothing else.

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