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Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

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Old
03-29-2013, 06:01 PM
  #176
Corncob
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
You know that they'll come and deny or downplay that or better, they'll ignore it. Ridiculous really...
I'm not going to downplay or deny it. I love me some Prust and he's a great fit as a on ice policeman for Galchenyuk. Quite sure that Galchenyuk does feel more secure in the scrums when Prust is on the ice with him.

And that's the point. Prust is good enough to be on the ice with him.

Now, if you want to go onto use that as an argument to get someone like Bordelau who isn't good enough to ever be on the ice with any of our skill players, that's a whole other thing.

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03-29-2013, 06:04 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Actually we would just point out this part of the quote "Because everyone plays aggressively all the time".

So a fighter doesn't discourage cheap shots, or scare the opposition into playing smaller/cleaner, or even make his teammates play bigger. As so many people have claimed, he only calms down the after whistle scrums. Are the Habs winning/losing the games because there is too much pushing/shoving after the whistle?
The only reply that I have to your post is this........



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03-29-2013, 06:23 PM
  #178
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See, they're proving the point, downplaying what the players themselves say. Those are the ones I'd throw on the ice first againt the Bruins with no enforcers on our side. Then they could be told that their saying is "fluff".

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03-29-2013, 06:31 PM
  #179
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Sign Bordeleau and Clowe in the off season. Then we have a great mix of size and skill.

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03-29-2013, 07:02 PM
  #180
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guys, why you want Bordeleau when we have THE Proboscis monkey ARMSTRONG

Armstrong

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03-29-2013, 08:01 PM
  #181
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Since 1979-80, teams that finished among the bottom three in fighting majors have wound up atop the regular-season standings 10 times and won the Stanley Cup 11 times.

In contrast, pugnacious teams that finished among the top three in fighting majors wound up with only two regular-season titles and two Stanley Cups.
Quote:
“I wanted to play four lines, especially in the playoffs,” said Scotty Bowman, who coached the Penguins and the Red Wings to championships. “That was always my theory. You have to stand up to the other team, but if you have a guy that just specializes in fighting, it’s a handicap.”
Quote:
“Bob and Scotty were into skill guys,” McGuire said. “When the other team put tough guys on the ice, they’d put skill guys out. They figured they could expose the other team and light ’em up.”
Quote:
In one study, he examined what happened in the 10 minutes after every fight in 2008-9 for which a clear winner was chosen by fans voting on the popular site hockeyfights.com. Desjardins found that the team of the winning fighter had an uptick of 0.07 goals — or, as he said, “winning a fight is worth a little more than 1/80th of a win in the standings.”
Quote:
“On average, every 10 to 11 fights, a goal is created,” they said.

But, Mongeon and Boyle added, “fighting has no effect on winning”; the goals scored in those five minutes are almost evenly divided between goals for and goals against.
Quote:
The company’s research found that it would take 30 to 60 fights to generate a single extra victory.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/sp...ies.html?_r=1&

Can this be the end of this thread.

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03-29-2013, 08:17 PM
  #182
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I don't think there's a formula for proving anything from fighting majors. Most of the people in these threads liked to point to the Habs and Islanders in the basement with relatively few fighting majors while the league leading Rangers, Bruins, and Flyers were at the top (along with the terrible Blue Jackets)

Of course it turns out the middle of the road Kings won the cup. The year before that, the top 3 in fighting majors Bruins won, the year before that, the Blackhawks won despite being in the bottom third in the league in fighting majors.

If there's anything to gain from that is there's no magic science beyond good teams tending to have depth, which usually means toughness that doesn't take away from giving even your grinders big roles. The Bruins are nothing like the Leafs beyond both teams like to fight a lot.

I understand some people want a pure goon, after all some general managers do too, including successful ones, even if the numbers don't support their place. But it's clear this isn't a science, and the worst part of this thread is people claiming anecdotes are facts.

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03-29-2013, 09:18 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/sp...ies.html?_r=1&

Can this be the end of this thread.
Research can be conducted to get pretty much any result that a person would desire to forward their agenda.

For example......

Pigeons can discriminate "good" and "bad" paintings by children. (Animal Cognition)

Intermittent access to beer promotes binge-like drinking in adolescent but not adult Wistar rats. (Alcohol)

Optimising the sensory characteristics and acceptance of canned cat food: use of a human taste panel. (Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition)


So to answer your question, no, the information you provided cannot be the end of this thread.

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03-29-2013, 09:23 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I don't think there's a formula for proving anything from fighting majors. Most of the people in these threads liked to point to the Habs and Islanders in the basement with relatively few fighting majors while the league leading Rangers, Bruins, and Flyers were at the top (along with the terrible Blue Jackets)

Of course it turns out the middle of the road Kings won the cup. The year before that, the top 3 in fighting majors Bruins won, the year before that, the Blackhawks won despite being in the bottom third in the league in fighting majors.

If there's anything to gain from that is there's no magic science beyond good teams tending to have depth, which usually means toughness that doesn't take away from giving even your grinders big roles. The Bruins are nothing like the Leafs beyond both teams like to fight a lot.

I understand some people want a pure goon, after all some general managers do too, including successful ones, even if the numbers don't support their place. But it's clear this isn't a science, and the worst part of this thread is people claiming anecdotes are facts.
I would like to shed some clarity on the subject, strictly as my own opinion.

If, and it is a huge if, the Bruins, Leafs, Sens and Sabres would send all of their goons down to the minors and decided to play and compete against the Canadiens in the sport of hockey without thuggery, I would not see a need to have "enforcers" on this team.

I am happy as hell when we play those teams and there are no incidents on the ice. I prefer a good clean game decided by skill.

The sad part is that is not the reality right now.

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03-29-2013, 09:49 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Research can be conducted to get pretty much any result that a person would desire to forward their agenda.

For example......

Pigeons can discriminate "good" and "bad" paintings by children. (Animal Cognition)

Intermittent access to beer promotes binge-like drinking in adolescent but not adult Wistar rats. (Alcohol)

Optimising the sensory characteristics and acceptance of canned cat food: use of a human taste panel. (Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition)


So to answer your question, no, the information you provided cannot be the end of this thread.
Backfire effect – when people react to disconfirming evidence by strengthening their beliefs.

I think this thread would make a great case study.

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03-29-2013, 10:06 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Backfire effect – when people react to disconfirming evidence by strengthening their beliefs.

I think this thread would make a great case study.
Hell yeah. Get on it. See if you can get the government to throw some money your way and hire some assistants.

At the end of your study and pocketing all of that money, your research will show that on sports message boards, people disagree with each other all of the time.

I'll buy a copy of your study just because I am a nice guy.

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03-29-2013, 10:21 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Hell yeah. Get on it. See if you can get the government to throw some money your way and hire some assistants.

At the end of your study and pocketing all of that money, your research will show that on sports message boards, people disagree with each other all of the time.

I'll buy a copy of your study just because I am a nice guy.
No need there are plenty of studies already done. They'll show that once someone takes a public position they'll become more entrenched in their views regardless of evidence.

By the way if you can use numbers to prove whatever you want then surely there are studies "proving" the value of enforcers. Could you provide a link because everything I've seen points to the opposite.

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03-29-2013, 10:37 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
No need there are plenty of studies already done. They'll show that once someone takes a public position they'll become more entrenched in their views regardless of evidence.

By the way if you can use numbers to prove whatever you want then surely there are studies "proving" the value of enforcers. Could you provide a link because everything I've seen points to the opposite.
You dont need a study to realize that people have beliefs that are contrary to yours and posting a junk op-ed/psuedo-science report will do absolutely zero to change minds.

Galchenyuk, an actual NHL hockey player, has given you his opinion and you were quick to discredit it. So there is not much more I can do for you. You can always check Google. Happy surfing.

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03-29-2013, 10:47 PM
  #189
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For gawd's sake people, we do not need a 4 minute per night goon, how hard is it to understand that? We need toughness a la a bigger Prust. 4 minute a night goons have absolutely no effect in the playoffs and most of the time are not even dressed in the playoffs.

That is all.

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03-29-2013, 10:47 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Research can be conducted to get pretty much any result that a person would desire to forward their agenda.

For example......

Pigeons can discriminate "good" and "bad" paintings by children. (Animal Cognition)

Intermittent access to beer promotes binge-like drinking in adolescent but not adult Wistar rats. (Alcohol)

Optimising the sensory characteristics and acceptance of canned cat food: use of a human taste panel. (Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition)


So to answer your question, no, the information you provided cannot be the end of this thread.
I'm genuinely curious how the studies you cited from (or their titles, I'm guessing) support the idea that you can cherrypick research to support a claim substantially. What is the agenda being forwarded by the pigeons, alcohol and human taste panel studies? Did you mean that together they support a hypothesis or merely that you can do research on esoteric things?

What are the conclusions of those studies in terms of ramifications on whatever agenda it is you are supposing they promote? They seem merely investigative.

Sorinth's facts heavily support the hypothesis that fighters/goons/whatever you wanna call 'em (the ones that can't play hockey) do not help you win, statistically, at least. I'm in the Bowman camp. Don't handicap yourself. Particularly in the playoffs where gooning it up is a great way to lose.

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03-29-2013, 10:51 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You dont need a study to realize that people have beliefs that are contrary to yours and posting a junk op-ed/psuedo-science report will do absolutely zero to change minds.

Galchenyuk, an actual NHL hockey player, has given you his opinion and you were quick to discredit it. So there is not much more I can do for you. You can always check Google. Happy surfing.
Everything I saw on Google said fighting has a minimal impact. I get the feeling you didn't read the article since those psuedo-science studies come from people/companies that do consulting work for NHL teams.

I didn't dismiss Galchenyuk's comments, I just question how it relates to winning hockey games. Not to mention I'd take Scotty Bowman's comments long before Galchenyuk's.

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03-29-2013, 11:00 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I'm genuinely curious how the studies you cited from (or their titles, I'm guessing) support the idea that you can cherrypick research to support a claim substantially. What is the agenda being forwarded by the pigeons, alcohol and human taste panel studies? Did you mean that together they support a hypothesis or merely that you can do research on esoteric things?

What are the conclusions of those studies in terms of ramifications on whatever agenda it is you are supposing they promote? They seem merely investigative.

Sorinth's facts heavily support the hypothesis that fighters/goons/whatever you wanna call 'em (the ones that can't play hockey) do not help you win, statistically, at least. I'm in the Bowman camp. Don't handicap yourself. Particularly in the playoffs where gooning it up is a great way to lose.
I did a quick Google search for absurd studies. I dont know nor do I care what the agendas were for those studies. There are agendas or else they would not have been funded.

Until they can come up with a statistic that shows what a skill player in the NHL is thinking when they have an enforcer or someone willing to stand up for them on the ice/bench that night, then I guess we will have to rely on actual hockey players like Galchenyuk to determine whether they feel they are of use or not.

Boston gooned it up against the Canucks and they skated off with the Cup. So much for that conventional wisdom.

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03-29-2013, 11:24 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/sp...ies.html?_r=1&

Can this be the end of this thread.
Sorry but I prefer real life experience to make dreams studies.

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03-29-2013, 11:25 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I did a quick Google search for absurd studies. I dont know nor do I care what the agendas were for those studies. There are agendas or else they would not have been funded.

Until they can come up with a statistic that shows what a skill player in the NHL is thinking when they have an enforcer or someone willing to stand up for them on the ice/bench that night, then I guess we will have to rely on actual hockey players like Galchenyuk to determine whether they feel they are of use or not.

Boston gooned it up against the Canucks and they skated off with the Cup. So much for that conventional wisdom.
So what agenda did the pigeon study have?

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what the player thinks is good for him. Guy Lafleur smoked between periods, I'm sure at the time he would have told you it helped his game. If an enforcer helps it would show up in the Wins column or at least in Goals Scored.

As far as Boston goes no won said gooning it up prevents you from winning, it's just not a very effective strategy. Which is why the teams that fight the most have won 2 cups in the last 30 years and teams that fight the least have won 11 over the same time.

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03-29-2013, 11:28 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Everything I saw on Google said fighting has a minimal impact. I get the feeling you didn't read the article since those psuedo-science studies come from people/companies that do consulting work for NHL teams.

I didn't dismiss Galchenyuk's comments, I just question how it relates to winning hockey games. Not to mention I'd take Scotty Bowman's comments long before Galchenyuk's.
Fighting is nothing more than aggression. If you are able to control that aggression and use it to your advantage in intimidating your opponent on the ice, then it has impact.

If you allow that aggression to rage out of control, then it has a negative impact.

You can choose to believe that or not. Matters not.

I choose to believe Galchenyuk over Sorinth. Sorry.

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03-29-2013, 11:30 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Sorry but I prefer real life experience to make dreams studies.
Like the winningest coach in NHL history Scotty Bowman saying "If you have a guy that just specializes in fighting, it’s a handicap"

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03-29-2013, 11:35 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Fighting is nothing more than aggression. If you are able to control that aggression and use it to your advantage in intimidating your opponent on the ice, then it has impact.

If you allow that aggression to rage out of control, then it has a negative impact.

You can choose to believe that or not. Matters not.

I choose to believe Galchenyuk over Sorinth. Sorry.
If it gives you an advantage it would show up with Ws. It's as simple as that.

You don't have to take my word over Galchenyuk's but you'd think Scotty Bowman would have a better idea on what it takes to win the Stanley Cup then Galchenyuk does.

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03-30-2013, 02:15 AM
  #198
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Boston gooned it up against the Canucks and they skated off with the Cup. So much for that conventional wisdom.
Except they didn't. Seriously, when did this actually happen? The Cannucks even cheap shotted Horton out of the series with no retribution at all.

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03-30-2013, 02:27 AM
  #199
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See, they're proving the point, downplaying what the players themselves say. Those are the ones I'd throw on the ice first againt the Bruins with no enforcers on our side. Then they could be told that their saying is "fluff".
Is this supposed to be a reply to me? Weak if so. Galchenyuk is talking about Prust, a player who plays on the same line as Galchenyuk.

Find me a quote about Galchenyuk saying 'I'd find the scrums so much more secure if we had a big goon sitting on the bench picking his nails and watching Milan Lucic facewash me' and he might start to be supporting the generic 'must get a goon'.

Now, if you think you're arguing with anyone who thinks Prust's physical contribution is not useful to the Habs, fine. I'm not really sure who that is though.

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03-30-2013, 03:17 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Not what I said at all.

Read it again.
Maybe not what you meant, but that's basically what you wrote. I scratched my head on that one.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
As ugly and pitiful that the Moen fight was against Campbell, it did settle down the game. Sure, the Bruins scored 4 goals afterwards. But the biggest result was that the Habs came back in the 3rd because the teams were playing hockey instead of goonery.
Result from what? Based on what I read, result from the fight, since this is the only action listed. Se we were ahead by 2 and the result of the fight was... we came back in the 3rd.

Personnally, I don't think fighting Campbell had any effect on the game whatsoever. Maybe if it had been Lucic.


Last edited by VL55: 03-30-2013 at 03:28 AM.
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