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03-29-2013, 04:40 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Callahan IMO is a major part of the problem. A loser mentality is fit across the team and Callahan leads the way. He's won nothing in his career, yet he gets heralded as if he's Adam Graves. He hasn't produced in the playoffs, yet young guys like Stepan and MDZ were blamed for the Rangers exit last year. The biggest problem for me is that he is a guy who perfectly fits this system: shotblocking, grenade puck-handling hockey. There is no way in hell he should be playing those many minutes, he's simply not good enough relative to the other star forwards who receive that similar ice time. When the Callahan era is over, fans will hopefully witness exciting hockey for once. Leading by example, block all the shots!
So, you're gripe is that you hate the system and the style of play, and you think Callahan is a major reason he's keeping it here?

Bolded: he recieves normal top 6 minutes at even strength. The numbers are inflated because he is going to be on every single PK and PP, areas where he thrives.

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03-29-2013, 04:46 PM
  #52
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Callagraves, do you still not think Callahan is a diver?

Callahan is frustrated, it sucks and he's not playing to his potential. But it still ultimately falls on Richards and Gaborik, they play well and the rest of the team will follow.

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03-29-2013, 04:54 PM
  #53
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Callagraves, do you still not think Callahan is a diver?

Callahan is frustrated, it sucks and he's not playing to his potential. But it still ultimately falls on Richards and Gaborik, they play well and the rest of the team will follow.
I've seen him embellish a call or two, but never full on dive. There's a distinction. A player who is lightly high-sticked and throws his head back is embellishing. a Player who holds on to another's stick and goes down to get a call is diving.

I've never seen out of him what I saw last night. I felt betrayed and violated, and I expect it to never happen again. I almost wasn't upset that our Powerplay was so ****ing outmatched, because we didn't deserve it anyways.

I said it 2 or 3 times, that is the worst game Ryan Callahan has ever played in the NHL. He's a solid offensive force, but can't, and shouldn't be consistently relied on to be a team's primary scoring threat. We have 3 other players for that. He's at his best when he's creating offense through physical play.

We saw him try too hard to be a primary scorer last night. It's a ubiquitous cliche, sounds like every interview ever, but he needs to get back to his game. Pucks deep, pucks to the net, bodies to the net. Yes, it's the same ******** we hear from every player, but that's his game.

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03-29-2013, 05:06 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
I've seen him embellish a call or two, but never full on dive. There's a distinction. A player who is lightly high-sticked and throws his head back is embellishing. a Player who holds on to another's stick and goes down to get a call is diving.
I've heard this said before but sometimes it's just instinct and not really embellishing. A player sees a stick coming up or they feel it on their face; I'm not really going to pin it on the player that flinches.

If the rule says keep your stick down, you better keep your stick down.

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03-29-2013, 05:13 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ImIdaho View Post
I've heard this said before but sometimes it's just instinct and not really embellishing. A player sees a stick coming up or they feel it on their face; I'm not really going to pin it on the player that flinches.

If the rule says keep your stick down, you better keep your stick down.
I'm not talking about the instinctual head throw back from a legit high stick, I'm talking about the head thrown back like a hard high stick from being brushed.

Thinks somewhere between normal high stick and OV level. But another example would be a player who's being slashed with no call, and lets their leg out. It's not a dive, they're being slashed. Another player is committing a penalty on them. No, I'm not a fan of it, but it's an entirely different subject from someone who PRETENDS someone is committing a penalty. It's why i hate the simultaneous Diving/tripping penalty. If it was a trip, it can't be a dive. make embellishment a penalty if you want, but dont give a penalty to a player for pretending to be trippped, and another one to a player for tripping. It's a paradox.

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03-29-2013, 05:20 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
I'm not talking about the instinctual head throw back from a legit high stick, I'm talking about the head thrown back like a hard high stick from being brushed.

Thinks somewhere between normal high stick and OV level. But another example would be a player who's being slashed with no call, and lets their leg out. It's not a dive, they're being slashed. Another player is committing a penalty on them. No, I'm not a fan of it, but it's an entirely different subject from someone who PRETENDS someone is committing a penalty. It's why i hate the simultaneous Diving/tripping penalty. If it was a trip, it can't be a dive. make embellishment a penalty if you want, but dont give a penalty to a player for pretending to be trippped, and another one to a player for tripping. It's a paradox.
I don't know how you can differentiate between the two by just looking at a player pulling their head back. I've seen a few players do just that because they probably thought they were going to get hit. I label that as reflex and not embellishing, unless the player starts holding his face and acting like they did get hit.

The rest of your post, I made a similar statement just a few days ago. The league calling embellishments as dives is creating confusion.

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03-29-2013, 05:24 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ImIdaho View Post
I don't know how you can differentiate between the two by just looking at a player pulling their head back. I've seen a few players do just that because they probably thought they were going to get hit. I label that as reflex and not embellishing, unless the player starts holding his face and acting like they did get hit.

The rest of your post, I made a similar statement just a few days ago. The league calling embellishments as dives is creating confusion.
I'll give you that high sticking was a poor example. They can't all be this

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03-29-2013, 05:30 PM
  #58
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I'll give you that high sticking was a poor example. They can't all be this
That one definitely is embellishment. No arguments from me.

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03-29-2013, 05:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ImIdaho View Post
That one definitely is embellishment. No arguments from me.
I'd go so far to call that one a dive. OV's stick was under the flyer's, he forced the stick up toward his own face.

But staying on topic, that's the difference I'd see in Cally's play. If there was a penalty on him, he wouldn't try to hide it, but he'd never FAKED a penalty before. Maybe a nuance to some, but I think there's a difference.


Last edited by Callagraves: 03-29-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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03-29-2013, 11:30 PM
  #60
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Now we're picking on Callahan? UGH
Who is picking on Callahan? I have a legitimate concern over his drop in play. If anybody thinks that Callahan this year looks anything like the Callahan of the last three, I just don't know what to tell you. He went from being an energy guy for 95% of every game to vanishing completely for weeks on end. His minutes are up and his production is down. He should be out there rallying the rest of this team to play with pride and grit, and instead he's being excused because "the other guys on the team won't play hard." Well who's job is it to get the team fired up and ready to play!? The coach and the captain share that responsibility.

I don't think Cally is lazy or anything. Frankly (and this is clear if you look at my OP), I'm trying to figure out what caused this dip in play. Is it the lack of a pre-season? Is he still burned out from the grueling pace of last season (a full year plus that many playoff games of Callahan's brand of hockey would be tough to recover from)? Is it what some of the others have said, that the pressure is getting to him and he's gripping the stick too tightly (that would surprise me a bit though. That was always Dubinsky's biggest problem. Callahan never had any issues with his confidence)?

I don't buy that it's because of his line-mates. He's done far more with far less in the past. I just want to figure out what happened. Yes, I think the change in Callahan is our biggest problem. Ryan Callahan circa 2009-2012 would NEVER let his team play this half-assed for this long. I think if we had THAT version of Callahan, the other problems (Richards, Gaborik, etc) would get better as a result. Think of the Rangers as a car. Torts has been trying to push the car along all year. He's spent a good deal of time (as have we) trying to fix the tires to get them rolling properly. Gaborik, Richards, Stepan, Boyle, etc--those guys are the tires. Callahan is the engine. Without getting him back to where we need him to be, the rest of the pieces are never going to get that car down the road. I'm not picking on him at all. I'm confused. I see one of my favorite players, but I don't see him playing the way that MADE him one of my favorite players. I'm just trying to figure out what happened.


Last edited by smoneil: 03-29-2013 at 11:36 PM.
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03-29-2013, 11:34 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
I'll give you that high sticking was a poor example. They can't all be this
Ovechkin died on this play, didn't he?

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03-29-2013, 11:34 PM
  #62
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Callahan IMO is a major part of the problem. A loser mentality is fit across the team and Callahan leads the way. He's won nothing in his career, yet he gets heralded as if he's Adam Graves. He hasn't produced in the playoffs, yet young guys like Stepan and MDZ were blamed for the Rangers exit last year. The biggest problem for me is that he is a guy who perfectly fits this system: shotblocking, grenade puck-handling hockey. There is no way in hell he should be playing those many minutes, he's simply not good enough relative to the other star forwards who receive that similar ice time. When the Callahan era is over, fans will hopefully witness exciting hockey for once. Leading by example, block all the shots!

Hard not to agree with this. I love Callahan as much as the next guy, but really have yet to see anything close to resembling the player Graves was. Hes definitely overrated by this fanbase and is suited best for third line RW given his style of play and where he plays. Hes not a skill forward by ANY means, and his playoffs last year save were pretty disappointing.

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03-29-2013, 11:35 PM
  #63
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Ovechkin died on this play, didn't he?
Never to be seen again.

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03-29-2013, 11:36 PM
  #64
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Hard not to agree with this. I love Callahan as much as the next guy, but really have yet to see anything close to resembling the player Graves was. Hes definitely overrated by this fanbase and is suited best for third line RW given his style of play and where he plays. Hes not a skill forward by ANY means, and his playoffs last year save were pretty disappointing.
There's not a 3rd liner in the world that produces at the pace Cally has.

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03-29-2013, 11:59 PM
  #65
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There's not a 3rd liner in the world that produces at the pace Cally has.

Depth.

Callahan is a bona-fide third liner on a Cup team.

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03-30-2013, 12:14 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Callahan IMO is a major part of the problem. A loser mentality is fit across the team and Callahan leads the way. He's won nothing in his career, yet he gets heralded as if he's Adam Graves. He hasn't produced in the playoffs, yet young guys like Stepan and MDZ were blamed for the Rangers exit last year. The biggest problem for me is that he is a guy who perfectly fits this system: shotblocking, grenade puck-handling hockey. There is no way in hell he should be playing those many minutes, he's simply not good enough relative to the other star forwards who receive that similar ice time. When the Callahan era is over, fans will hopefully witness exciting hockey for once. Leading by example, block all the shots!
He won a silver medal in the Olympics.

Twenty-nine other GMs would take Callahan on their team in a heartbeat even if he was only a PK specialist and energy line player.

I'd rather him pave his way and earn his Cup.

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03-30-2013, 12:21 AM
  #67
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Depth.

Callahan is a bona-fide third liner on a Cup team.
If that team is Pittsburgh, yeah. Take a look at last years Kings, Where Cally would certainly be top 6, or the year before, The Bruins highest scoring right winger had 48 points.

Really, if Cally was a left winger, he'd be the best left winger on the team. It just so happens that both Nash and Gaborik prefer the right side as well.

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03-30-2013, 12:22 AM
  #68
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Good point, that's fair. I still don't think Callahan's a loser though. I think he'd be a real nice piece on a good team but won't carry one offensively. There's no rule that says your captain has to drive the boat offensively.
He is a good role player and decent 2-way 2nd line player. However he isn't an elite level by any stretch and is quite a notch below the elite defensive players in the game. (Backes, Kesler, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Hossa, etc)

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03-30-2013, 12:26 AM
  #69
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He is a good role player and decent 2-way 2nd line player. However he isn't an elite level by any stretch and is quite a notch below the elite defensive players in the game. (Backes, Kesler, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Hossa, etc)
I can agree with this. He's very good defensively but I don't see him winning the Selke any time soon

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03-30-2013, 12:27 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
In the post you responded to, there is one passing mention of a potential injury, and the entire rest of the post is giving fair criticisms of Callahan's play. That's kinda cherry picking.

And it's a fair guess, though I don't hold the idea myself, because anyone watching can tell that most of our guys are playing through one nagging injury or another. We know Miller is, and I'm near certain Girardi and McD are not at 100 percent.

Everyone bashed Gabby until we found out he was playing with half an upperbody. Then we all went "wow, we're kinda dicks". Nobody is giving him **** for it anymore.
This is true, I probably gave Gabby the most crap during the playoffs, but I did come to respect him for playing with only one good shoulder and still scoring clutch goals for the team. That to me is the true epitome of a warrior. Unfortunately, the media and casual Rangers fans won't give him the credit because he doesn't block shots or plays the right way. Man it's going to be depressing when Gabby inevitably gets traded and more pressure is sent to Callahan to produce when he is not capable of doing so.

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03-30-2013, 12:32 AM
  #71
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He is a good role player and decent 2-way 2nd line player. However he isn't an elite level by any stretch and is quite a notch below the elite defensive players in the game. (Backes, Kesler, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Hossa, etc)
You're right as far as even strength goes. Not many can compete with those guys.

Cally's bread and butter is the PK, though. He's definitely among the best PKing forwards in the league.

I would call Cally the very picture of what I want in a 2nd line player. Forechecking, defensively strong, 50+ point pace, excels in every situation (Defending a lead, playing from behind, PP, PK, OT). Hell, he's been useful in the shootouts this year, which is new for him.

He's not a first liner, and I don't think many would claim that he is. I think he's developed into a tremendous player considering his style, size, and perceived ceiling.

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03-30-2013, 12:35 AM
  #72
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This is true, I probably gave Gabby the most crap during the playoffs, but I did come to respect him for playing with only one good shoulder and still scoring clutch goals for the team. That to me is the true epitome of a warrior. Unfortunately, the media and casual Rangers fans won't give him the credit because he doesn't block shots or plays the right way. Man it's going to be depressing when Gabby inevitably gets traded and more pressure is sent to Callahan to produce when he is not capable of doing so.
I agree entirely. Gaborik scoring in the 3rd OT is even more incredible when you consider he did so without a shoulder.

His shot on marty (the infamous scorpion save) made me furious at the time. Really, he played that incredibly, and was robbed of a goal by the flukiest save i've ever seen, but his choice makes more sense when you realize HE COULDN'T SHOOT THE PUCK

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03-30-2013, 12:36 AM
  #73
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I find Gaborik and Callahan to both be "warriors" in their own respect.

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03-30-2013, 12:37 AM
  #74
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So, you're gripe is that you hate the system and the style of play, and you think Callahan is a major reason he's keeping it here?
Of course. This team needs a major culture change from this lifeless, dull and boring system. This shot blocking system is very unsustainable for long term success mainly due to two reasons.
  1. The horrendous breakout game due to collapsing in front of the net
  2. The cause of injuries and fatigued players from being hemmed in own end
The Rangers won't win a cup with this system. If you look at all cup winners from 2006 onwards, they were all decent puck possession teams.

Quote:
Bolded: he recieves normal top 6 minutes at even strength. The numbers are inflated because he is going to be on every single PK and PP, areas where he thrives.
I guess this is fair. But his ES production has been pretty brutal this year. He is a glorified special teams player.

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03-30-2013, 12:41 AM
  #75
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He won a silver medal in the Olympics.

Twenty-nine other GMs would take Callahan on their team in a heartbeat even if he was only a PK specialist and energy line player.

I'd rather him pave his way and earn his Cup.
He won silver medal as a 4th line grinder on the team. Ryan Whitney also won Silver on that team, but everyone knows he's a loser.

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