HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bouwmeester?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-29-2013, 12:54 PM
  #201
Run the Jewels
Registered User
 
Run the Jewels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 10,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Let's see you come up with a list of 60 players whom you consider top-pairing defensemen in the NHL, and then we'll see if your definition of a first-pairing defenseman holds up.

Perhaps you simply mean that Kronwall is not as good as Lidstrom. In that event, I agree, but it means nothing.
I'm working so I can't humor you beyond saying Ericsson and Bouwmeester are top pairing dmen. Kronwall wasn't a top pairing guy when Lids was here and he certainly doesn't look like one now.

Run the Jewels is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 01:15 PM
  #202
TatarTangle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Detroit
Country: United States
Posts: 3,203
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
Are we tanking for Reinhart/Ekblad next year? Ouellet may be advanced for his age but his not ready for the NHL level, Sproul can't really play defence at the OHL level (he's average or below average) and is imo 2-3 years away from the NHL, DeKeyser hasn't even signed with us yet & we don't know how he will play, and Kindl is one of our top 4 dmen this year no way is he our 7th next year.
That's my fault, I thought my post was indicitive of the fact this team / that defense is years away from being a true contender. But in any event, yes, that is correct.

TatarTangle is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 01:57 PM
  #203
sepster
Registered User
 
sepster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: North of the 'D"
Posts: 1,359
vCash: 500
There are definitely not 60 Dmen better than Kronwall in the NHL. Kronwall can be a top pairing Dman, he is just not a #1 Dman. Meaning, he can play on the top pairing while complimenting a true #1, he can not carry a top pairing as THE #1.

There are NOT 30 #1-Quality dmen in the NHL. A true #1 player (at an position) should be able to go to any team in the NHL and can be argued to be that team's best player at that position. Now, there are some exceptions i.e. teams with Crosby's and Chara's where they will be the #1 position player no matter who else shows up. But, guys like Weber, Keith, Yandle, Doughty, they could go to any team in the NHL and be that team's best Dman.

sepster is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 02:18 PM
  #204
Kronwalled55
Eatin' your hats
 
Kronwalled55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Bay City, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 5,347
vCash: 500
Niklas Kronwall - 24 points
Rest of the defense combined (6 players) - 34 points
Third on the team in points scored

People overlook his offensive ability so much, and only focus on the defensive gaffs. Karlsson, Letang, and Enstrom aren't defensive rocks by any means, and I would argue that Kronwall is better defensively than 2 of those. Kronwall is, and never will be, a shutdown defenseman. How many number ones can bring a great offensive angle to their game, still play good defense, and log big minutes every night for 4.75 mil per season. Not many. He's not nearly the rock that Lidstrom was in his own end, but to call him a 2nd pairing guy is just not well thought out. Call him an ideal #2, that's fine and very likely true, but the guy never gets praise for any good things he does.

Kronwalled55 is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 05:44 PM
  #205
14ari13
Registered User
 
14ari13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 9,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
I'm working so I can't humor you beyond saying Ericsson and Bouwmeester are top pairing dmen. Kronwall wasn't a top pairing guy when Lids was here and he certainly doesn't look like one now.
How many top pairing guys are in the league, 5, 10?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepster View Post
There are definitely not 60 Dmen better than Kronwall in the NHL. Kronwall can be a top pairing Dman, he is just not a #1 Dman. Meaning, he can play on the top pairing while complimenting a true #1, he can not carry a top pairing as THE #1.

There are NOT 30 #1-Quality dmen in the NHL. A true #1 player (at an position) should be able to go to any team in the NHL and can be argued to be that team's best player at that position. Now, there are some exceptions i.e. teams with Crosby's and Chara's where they will be the #1 position player no matter who else shows up. But, guys like Weber, Keith, Yandle, Doughty, they could go to any team in the NHL and be that team's best Dman.
I am not sure I get it what you mean.

14ari13 is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 06:32 PM
  #206
Frk It
#TwentyFour
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 13,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
I understand the judgement of a player is almost always subjective, but this line of yours is something that makes me question whether we're talking about the same Jason Bouwmeester.
Could you expand on this?


Last edited by Frk It: 03-29-2013 at 07:47 PM.
Frk It is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 07:23 PM
  #207
dtones520
Registered User
 
dtones520's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Midland, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,047
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Oh really? Because in our universe, Jonathan Quick won the Conn Smythe.



Are you aware of how often Dustin Brown dives?
So if a player dives, in an attempt to draw a penalty, he has no heart? That makes sense.

dtones520 is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 10:58 PM
  #208
Crymson
Fire Holland
 
Crymson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,674
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronwalled55 View Post
Niklas Kronwall - 24 points
Rest of the defense combined (6 players) - 34 points
Third on the team in points scored

People overlook his offensive ability so much, and only focus on the defensive gaffs. Karlsson, Letang, and Enstrom aren't defensive rocks by any means, and I would argue that Kronwall is better defensively than 2 of those. Kronwall is, and never will be, a shutdown defenseman. How many number ones can bring a great offensive angle to their game, still play good defense, and log big minutes every night for 4.75 mil per season. Not many. He's not nearly the rock that Lidstrom was in his own end, but to call him a 2nd pairing guy is just not well thought out. Call him an ideal #2, that's fine and very likely true, but the guy never gets praise for any good things he does.
I think that as a result of all the time people here spent watching Lidstrom, there's a general consensus that if our #1 defenseman isn't perfect, then he sucks ass and needs to be replaced.

People will really need to abandon that sentiment.

Crymson is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 11:11 PM
  #209
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
I think that as a result of all the time people here spent watching Lidstrom, there's a general consensus that if our #1 defenseman isn't perfect, then he sucks ass and needs to be replaced.

People will really need to abandon that sentiment.
People with eyeballs have been watching Nick Lidstrom be less than perfect for 3-4 years.

The fall from 2012 Lidstrom to 2013 Kronwall isn't that great.

The problem is that we don't have anyone taking Kronwall's old job and doing well (although Kindl is showing some ability of late).

And that nobody has replaced Stuart.

RedWingsNow* is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 11:27 PM
  #210
Crymson
Fire Holland
 
Crymson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,674
vCash: 500
Excellent game by Bouwmeester tonight. The Flames lost 6-4, and in over 20 minutes of time on ice, he was a -4 and somehow managed to figure into none of the Flames' goals. He directly figured into three of the goals against.

Goal-against 1: Bouwmeester was directly responsible for the 2-on-1 that led to this Jackets goal, as he pinched in to pick up a puck that was coming off the boards and completely whiffed on it (despite the puck being flat on the ice).
Goal-against 2: Bouwmeester completely failed to defend Calvert, who snipes it over him and into the net.
Goal-against 3: Bouwmeester failed to pick up a man coming late on the rush next to him, and also failed to intercept the pass to that player. Goal.


Last edited by Crymson: 03-29-2013 at 11:46 PM.
Crymson is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 11:29 PM
  #211
Ricelund
We like our team.
 
Ricelund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New York, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Excellent game by Bouwmeester tonight. The Flames lost 6-4, and in over 20 minutes of time on ice, he was a -4 and somehow managed to figure into none of the Flames' goals.

Ricelund is offline  
Old
03-29-2013, 11:47 PM
  #212
Crymson
Fire Holland
 
Crymson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,674
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricelund View Post
platitude
Nice try.

Crymson is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 12:51 AM
  #213
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 29,091
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Excellent game by Bouwmeester tonight. The Flames lost 6-4, and in over 20 minutes of time on ice, he was a -4 and somehow managed to figure into none of the Flames' goals. He directly figured into three of the goals against.

Goal-against 1: Bouwmeester was directly responsible for the 2-on-1 that led to this Jackets goal, as he pinched in to pick up a puck that was coming off the boards and completely whiffed on it (despite the puck being flat on the ice).
He was anticipating the Blue Jacket's player getting a piece of it and tried to just get in the way. It happens to everybody.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Goal-against 2: Bouwmeester completely failed to defend Calvert, who snipes it over him and into the net.
Failed to defend? He kept between the puck carrier and the goaltender and Calvert just made a nice play. Don't forget there was a potential Blue Jackets pass option for Calvert and he had to be aware of that (which he was).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Goal-against 3: Bouwmeester failed to pick up a man coming late on the rush next to him, and also failed to intercept the pass to that player. Goal.
Are you kidding? He covered the direct pass option which was the easiest play for the Blue Jacket to make. He forced the puck carrier to make a lower percentage pass which ended up connecting (the forward also bears a lot of responsibility for back checking there).

Honestly, your nitpicking on three instances is strange for this guy. In one game.

ArGarBarGar is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 01:40 AM
  #214
bullocks
Registered User
 
bullocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,173
vCash: 500
Boumeester would be a great pick up. He is a top 15-20 D man no question.

bullocks is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 02:21 AM
  #215
RaySheppard
Registered User
 
RaySheppard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
Well, Franzen used to play a lot of shorthanded time, so it isn't like he doesn't have the potential to be a 2 way forward who eats up shorthanded minutes. Babcock just has chosen not to put him out there for the past few years.
And why is that? I'd take Brown over lazy Franzen. Not sure why anybody would even argue they are very different players.

RaySheppard is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 02:27 AM
  #216
Cyborg Yzerman
Remember Alf?
 
Cyborg Yzerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere Land
Country: Sao Tome e Principe
Posts: 6,317
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullocks View Post
Boumeester would be a great pick up. He is a top 15-20 D man no question.
Doughty, Weber, Suter, OEL, Pietrengelo, Kulikov, McDonaugh, Letang, Hedman, Enstrom, Phaneuf, Karlsson, Chara, Girardi, Edler, Burns, Boyle.

I just named 17 guys without even giving it much thought that I would rather have over Bowumeester. So I question that remark exceptionally. Hell, I'm not convinced he's better than Kronwall. I think that's up to be questioned as well.

Cyborg Yzerman is online now  
Old
03-30-2013, 07:11 AM
  #217
14ari13
Registered User
 
14ari13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 9,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtones520 View Post
So if a player dives, in an attempt to draw a penalty, he has no heart? That makes sense.
If he plays a tough game, then it is very bad of him to be a diver. It's bad to dive in 1st place, but specially bad if a player plays tough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricelund View Post
6-1 and 6-4 is a big difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
Doughty, Weber, Suter, OEL, Pietrengelo, Kulikov, McDonaugh, Letang, Hedman, Enstrom, Phaneuf, Karlsson, Chara, Girardi, Edler, Burns, Boyle.

I just named 17 guys without even giving it much thought that I would rather have over Bowumeester. So I question that remark exceptionally. Hell, I'm not convinced he's better than Kronwall. I think that's up to be questioned as well.
Nice that you came up with a list.

14ari13 is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 08:07 AM
  #218
Frk It
#TwentyFour
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 13,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullocks View Post
Boumeester would be a great pick up. He is a top 15-20 D man no question.

Frk It is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 08:31 AM
  #219
Dogkota
Registered User
 
Dogkota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
Doughty, Weber, Suter, OEL, Pietrengelo, Kulikov, McDonaugh, Letang, Hedman, Enstrom, Phaneuf, Karlsson, Chara, Girardi, Edler, Burns, Boyle.

I just named 17 guys without even giving it much thought that I would rather have over Bowumeester. So I question that remark exceptionally. Hell, I'm not convinced he's better than Kronwall. I think that's up to be questioned as well.
Pretty awesome that your list contains a d-man so bad he was converted to a forward recently

Dogkota is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 08:44 AM
  #220
Frk It
#TwentyFour
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 13,430
vCash: 500
Letang, Suter, Subban, Keith, Seabrook, Weber, Pietereangleo, Ekman-Larsson, Yandle, Edler, Karlsson, Chara, Phaneuf, Enstrom, Campbell, Shattenkirk, Boyle, Doughty, Girardi, Byfuglien.

Not in any particular order. But there's 20 D I'm taking over Bouwmeester any day.

Frk It is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 08:44 AM
  #221
sepster
Registered User
 
sepster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: North of the 'D"
Posts: 1,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post
I am not sure I get it what you mean.
Which part?

sepster is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 09:10 AM
  #222
Lugaid
Hajlajtreelmål!
 
Lugaid's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Göteborg
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,484
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Lugaid
There's no question that Bouwmeester would be a good addition to the team, but it has to be the right price. He's not a young guy, and even though I don't watch him regularly, I get the feeling he's not as good as he used to be (or look) in Florida. The truth is that we (again) have little suitable trading value.

Lugaid is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 09:16 AM
  #223
Shoalzie
Registered User
 
Shoalzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Portland, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 14,455
vCash: 500
J-Bo has that ugly cap number...that's enough to scare me away. I like his game but he's not $6.8 million good.

I'd make a run at Streit as a rental...Bouwmeester is a bigger commitment than they need to make.

Shoalzie is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 09:24 AM
  #224
JmanWingsFan
Your average Jman
 
JmanWingsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Somewhere
Country: United States
Posts: 4,470
vCash: 500
I'd rather get Robidas, resign Kindl... Do a little work on the front end....

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Jaromir Jagr ($4.550m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Nathan Horton ($5.000m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.975m) / Calle Jarnkrok ($0.900m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Stephane Robidas ($3.300m)
Jakub Kindl ($1.500m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Brendan Smith ($1.500m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($4.500m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Mikael Samuelsson ($0.000m)
Buyout: Todd Bertuzzi ($0.000m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.098% of upper limit)
Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.025m—1.0%) Kyle Quincey ($0.038m—1.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,998,962; BONUSES: $320,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $5,621,038

This is thinking about next year, mind you.

JmanWingsFan is offline  
Old
03-30-2013, 10:05 AM
  #225
jroc86
Registered User
 
jroc86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 343
vCash: 500
This gets my stamp of approval. This would blow my mind. Hindsights always 20/20 ... but gets Jagr for 3 mill last year definitely would have been nice - hes 41 and in better physical condition than a flabby 33 year old Franzen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
I'd rather get Robidas, resign Kindl... Do a little work on the front end....

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Jaromir Jagr ($4.550m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Nathan Horton ($5.000m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.975m) / Calle Jarnkrok ($0.900m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Stephane Robidas ($3.300m)
Jakub Kindl ($1.500m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Brendan Smith ($1.500m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($4.500m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Mikael Samuelsson ($0.000m)
Buyout: Todd Bertuzzi ($0.000m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.098% of upper limit)
Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.025m—1.0%) Kyle Quincey ($0.038m—1.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,998,962; BONUSES: $320,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $5,621,038

This is thinking about next year, mind you.

jroc86 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:20 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.