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03-29-2013, 11:52 PM
  #76
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You're right as far as even strength goes. Not many can compete with those guys.

Cally's bread and butter is the PK, though. He's definitely among the best PKing forwards in the league.

I would call Cally the very picture of what I want in a 2nd line player. Forechecking, defensively strong, 50+ point pace, excels in every situation (Defending a lead, playing from behind, PP, PK, OT). Hell, he's been useful in the shootouts this year, which is new for him.

He's not a first liner, and I don't think many would claim that he is. I think he's developed into a tremendous player considering his style, size, and perceived ceiling.
I have to pretty much agree with everything here. I just don't like then notion of building the team around 3 wingers. I feel Callahan is the most expandable winger that'll garner a good return for the team and is clearly the 3rd best RWer. Ideally, I'd trade 2/3 of our RWers and add to center depth. While he is a good player, he shouldn't be top 10 in the league in TOI/PG amongst forwards.

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03-29-2013, 11:56 PM
  #77
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Callahan, even in a third line role, is more valuable than Gaborik in a 2nd line role. If Nash wasn't here, this wouldn't be a "problem". With Nash, we are extremely top heavy at RW - it's probably our deepest position, period. Our best player on each line is a RW.

People had to know that, with the acquisition of Nash, a RW would be on the way out, and that it was 100% going to be Gaborik, near regardless of how he was playing. Teams that are top heavy at RW do not win cups. Teams that are top heavy at center, do. The Rangers need to get a good center back for Gaborik. It would help a ton.

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03-29-2013, 11:57 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
I've never seen out of him what I saw last night.
You don't find it odd that after you had a debate on whether Callahan dives or embellishes, the very next game, you saw Callahan dive or embellish multiple times? Perhaps you weren't looking before?

I'm not ready to strip Cally of the C. I still love the guy. But that's always been part of his game, and it's always been my least favorite thing he's done, for obvious reasons.

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03-30-2013, 12:02 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Zamboner View Post
You don't find it odd that after you had a debate on whether Callahan dives or embellishes, the very next game, you saw Callahan dive or embellish multiple times? Perhaps you weren't looking before?

I'm not ready to strip Cally of the C. I still love the guy. But that's always been part of his game, and it's always been my least favorite thing he's done, for obvious reasons.
I don't think anyone here is going to suggest that was a normal game for Cally. Like I said, I've seen Cally embellish a slash or two, but it was A) always after the play, not interrupting the game, and B) an actual penalty. Last night was the worst we've ever seen him.

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03-30-2013, 12:08 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
He is a good role player and decent 2-way 2nd line player. However he isn't an elite level by any stretch and is quite a notch below the elite defensive players in the game. (Backes, Kesler, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Hossa, etc)
Ok cool, then I don't see a problem here.

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03-30-2013, 12:08 AM
  #81
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Callahan, even in a third line role, is more valuable than Gaborik in a 2nd line role. If Nash wasn't here, this wouldn't be a "problem". With Nash, we are extremely top heavy at RW - it's probably our deepest position, period. Our best player on each line is a RW.

People had to know that, with the acquisition of Nash, a RW would be on the way out, and that it was 100% going to be Gaborik, near regardless of how he was playing. Teams that are top heavy at RW do not win cups. Teams that are top heavy at center, do. The Rangers need to get a good center back for Gaborik. It would help a ton.
This isn't true. Nash was acquired because our depth on the LW side was very average. The majority of people were penciling him as the team's #1 LWer and even CBJ fans said he is most effective at LW. Even when the season started, our top line was Nash-Richards-Gaborik. If the Rangers management traded for Nash and gave all that depth in order to add to a positional strength, RW, then they're much dumber than I thought they were.

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03-30-2013, 12:10 AM
  #82
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Gaborik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Callahan

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03-30-2013, 12:11 AM
  #83
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Gaborik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Callahan
In some things yes. Others, no.

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03-30-2013, 12:12 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I have to pretty much agree with everything here. I just don't like then notion of building the team around 3 wingers. I feel Callahan is the most expandable winger that'll garner a good return for the team and is clearly the 3rd best RWer. Ideally, I'd trade 2/3 of our RWers and add to center depth. While he is a good player, he shouldn't be top 10 in the league in TOI/PG amongst forwards.
See, I disagree on the grounds that I actually like the defensive shot-blocking system. I hope that Gaborik suddenly clicks on the left wing, or Nash decides to try left side again. We all know that Cally is going to be here longer than Gaborik will because of their comparative contracts, roles, ages, and production levels. I want to keep Gaborik, but I think he's going to be traded before his contract is up, or let go.

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03-30-2013, 12:14 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Gaborik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Callahan
At scoring.

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03-30-2013, 12:14 AM
  #86
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In some things yes. Others, no.
Could say that for almost every player. Happens to be the most important thing in hockey is scoring goals and creating offense and in that he is much better and there's really no comparison (along with preventing goals of course - largely more important for defense). Hard work and defense always gets significantly overrated. Gaborik is a multiple time 40 goal 80 point scorer. Callahan is a career high 29 goal/54 point scorer. Unless you think his hard work and shot blocking etc.. are worth almost 30 points (of which is essentially impossible) then he is not as good a player. Not taking anything away from Callahan.

I could see an argument for Callahan > Gaborik if they were similar offensively but Gaborik slightly better (say Callahan's offense was more like a Kesler or a Bergeron) but the offensive difference is enormous.

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03-30-2013, 12:14 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
This isn't true. Nash was acquired because our depth on the LW side was very average. The majority of people were penciling him as the team's #1 LWer and even CBJ fans said he is most effective at LW. Even when the season started, our top line was Nash-Richards-Gaborik. If the Rangers management traded for Nash and gave all that depth in order to add to a positional strength, RW, then they're much dumber than I thought they were.
The Nash trade is a no-brainer, if you perform the follow-up moves correctly. He's a clear upgrade on Gaborik, which then allows you to flip Gaborik for a productive centerman, which is something this team desperately needs.

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03-30-2013, 12:14 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Bob Richards View Post
In some things yes. Others, no.
If by some things, you mean shooting the puck, and by others you mean everything else, Absolutely

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03-30-2013, 12:15 AM
  #89
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Ok cool, then I don't see a problem here.
He is an above average 2nd line player. It just irks me when people say he is the 'most important player' on the team. He is maybe 5th-6th in terms of importance.

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03-30-2013, 12:17 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
The Nash trade is a no-brainer, if you perform the follow-up moves correctly. He's a clear upgrade on Gaborik, which then allows you to flip Gaborik for a productive centerman, which is something this team desperately needs.
Yeah but at the time, not only did we not know Richards was gonna suck, but he was coming off of a playoffs where he went point-per-game, so at the time we didn't need that centerman.

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03-30-2013, 12:18 AM
  #91
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I don't think any actual Ranger fan would say anybody but Hank is the most important player on the team

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03-30-2013, 12:18 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
He is an above average 2nd line player. It just irks me when people say he is the 'most important player' on the team. He is maybe 5th-6th in terms of importance.
Let's see...

Hank, Nash, McD, Staal, Cally, Stepan.

These days you could make an argument for swapping Stepan and Cally due to Stepan's improved play, position, and the decline of Richards.


So yeah, 5th sounds about right. That's still huge.



But we have Kershaw admitting that Callahan is an above average 2nd liner. Saved for evidence.

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03-30-2013, 12:19 AM
  #93
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Could say that for almost every player. Happens to be the most important thing in hockey is scoring goals and creating offense and in that he is much better and there's really no comparison (along with preventing goals of course - largely more important for defense). Hard work and defense always gets significantly overrated. Gaborik is a multiple time 40 goal 80 point scorer. Callahan is a career high 29 goal/54 point scorer. Unless you think his hard work and shot blocking etc.. are worth almost 30 points (of which is essentially impossible) then he is not as good a player. Not taking anything away from Callahan.
You know, for such an incredible goal scorer, I really don't find Gaborik to be good at creating offense at all. He usually just finishes what someone else started. Nothing wrong with that as it works with great efficiency (and I love Gaborik). Hard work is NEVER overrated. If this team had half the heart they did last year, we'd have a few more wins by now.

Gaborik is obviously, a better player than Callahan but I don't find it to be really that distant. Callahan is a Swiss Army knife and for all of Gabby's skill, he isn't really in that top tier of players.

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03-30-2013, 12:21 AM
  #94
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You know, for such an incredible goal scorer, I really don't find Gaborik to be good at creating offense at all. He usually just finishes what someone else started. Nothing wrong with that as it works with great efficiency (and I love Gaborik). Hard work is NEVER overrated. If this team had half the heart they did last year, we'd have a few more wins by now.

Gaborik is obviously, a better player than Callahan but I don't find it to be really that distant. Callahan is a Swiss Army knife and for all of Gabby's skill, he isn't really in that top tier of players.
Maybe instead of create I should have said something like "generates scoring chances with great vision/passing" and such. It's not like we're talking about a one dimension scorer like say a Jeff Carter who gets very few assists. Gaboriks career gpg = his assists per game - he's had 40 assists several times etc... He can set plays up. By create I don't mean skate around people, dangle etc..That's more Nash's game and certainly not Gaboriks.

And anyway I'd say Gaborik works as hard as anyone. He just plays a different style such that when not producting it doesn't seem like he is since he's not your constant skate around type (hagelin), hit everyone in the way (callahan), dive to block all shots that are there (callahan) but he works hard at trying to play his game. You dont score 40 goals and 80 points and consistently be a PPG player by being a lazy player. Some styles are just more conducive to appearing as "hard working" from the outside and that style is essentially only the defensive/grinding/checking one. Any perimeter style player pretty much appears lazy and uninterested when they are going through rough stretches and not scoring...doesn't mean they are not trying though.

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03-30-2013, 12:24 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
I don't think anyone here is going to suggest that was a normal game for Cally. Like I said, I've seen Cally embellish a slash or two, but it was A) always after the play, not interrupting the game, and B) an actual penalty. Last night was the worst we've ever seen him.
I think it was only so bad because the rest of his game wasn't working last night. I've seen him embellish multiple times before. It just happened to be much more forgiving when he was blocking shots like a ****ing hero, killing people on the boards, maybe chipping in a goal in the very same game, and then you forget. Last night, the embellishments seemed to be the only things he did, so that's all there is to talk about. I think it only seems worse because he wasn't effective elsewhere in places he usually is, but the embellishments themselves were no different than past ones.

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03-30-2013, 12:24 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
He is an above average 2nd line player. It just irks me when people say he is the 'most important player' on the team. He is maybe 5th-6th in terms of importance.
Well he is very important in his own way, and does things that are important to a team with winning aspirations. Energy, checking, penalty killing, defense from the forward position, chipping in secondary scoring, changing momentum, playing the crease on the powerplay which is so underrated in terms of value. And the fact that he does all of that makes him one of the most valuable players in his class, that being complimentary players.

That being said, the blood and guts of hockey are putting the puck in their net, and keeping them out of yours. In that regard, Lundqvist, Nash, Richards, Gaborik and arguably Stepan are ahead of him in terms of who we need to perform more.

Callahan is my favorite. Everyone knows that. But I'm not gonna fool myself into thinking the team goes as he goes. He's one of the best complimentary players in the league, but a complimentary player is still not a primary player.

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03-30-2013, 12:26 AM
  #97
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Gaborik isn't a puck possession player. Callahan is. Gaborik is a counter-attack, finisher type player. He's not going to be the one with the puck on his stick in the offesnive zone, though, and that's why people are saying he "doesn't create offense". Nash can create offense. Callahan is better at creating offense, because he's a nightmare on the forecheck and can hold onto the puck far longer than Gaborik can.

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03-30-2013, 12:29 AM
  #98
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Gaborik isn't a puck possession player. Callahan is. Gaborik is a counter-attack, finisher type player. He's not going to be the one with the puck on his stick in the offesnive zone, though, and that's why people are saying he "doesn't create offense". Nash can create offense. Callahan is better at creating offense, because he's a nightmare on the forecheck and can hold onto the puck far longer than Gaborik can.
This is largely true. The only thing is how we define "creating offense." Because a large portion of the offense created by Callahan and guys he plays with is just controlling the puck behind the net along for the boards for a long period of time and then rarely does much come out of it. It appears like a lot of offense is created since we have the puck but really we're just fighting to keep control rather than find a great scoring opportunity. Nash on the other hand is the type of guy who can play that board game while also being able to stick handle through and around people and make quick accurate passes.

My question is: What is so great about this type of "created offense" if it doesn't result in many goals anyway? Why is it a big deal that Callahan can control the puck on the boards if it doesn't actually generate scoring chances? How is this better to a quick-strike type style that Gaborik employs where you won't see that sort of puck control but you see the puck in the net more via better shots and passes? At the end of the day what matters is the amount of points you can put on the board and the way you go about doing it shouldn't really matter. I mean even Boyle can work the boards with the best of them but nothing really gets created out of it. If Callahan creates more offense shouldn't that actually be reflected on the scoresheet at some point? Because if he isn't what offense is he really creating?


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03-30-2013, 12:30 AM
  #99
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Well he is very important in his own way, and does things that are important to a team with winning aspirations. Energy, checking, penalty killing, defense from the forward position, chipping in secondary scoring, changing momentum, playing the crease on the powerplay which is so underrated in terms of value. And the fact that he does all of that makes him one of the most valuable players in his class, that being complimentary players.

That being said, the blood and guts of hockey are putting the puck in their net, and keeping them out of yours. In that regard, Lundqvist, Nash, Richards, Gaborik and arguably Stepan are ahead of him in terms of who we need to perform more.

Callahan is my favorite. Everyone knows that. But I'm not gonna fool myself into thinking the team goes as he goes. He's one of the best complimentary players in the league, but a complimentary player is still not a primary player.
Point of interest: all of the bolded players make significantly more than him, and Stepan will eventually demand a higher paycheck

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03-30-2013, 12:32 AM
  #100
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Gaborik isn't a puck possession player. Callahan is. Gaborik is a counter-attack, finisher type player. He's not going to be the one with the puck on his stick in the offesnive zone, though, and that's why people are saying he "doesn't create offense". Nash can create offense. Callahan is better at creating offense, because he's a nightmare on the forecheck and can hold onto the puck far longer than Gaborik can.
An amputee can hold onto the puck longer than Gaborik.

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