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Old
03-30-2013, 12:40 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Gaborik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Callahan
Yeah, it should be pretty obvious. One is a high end 1st line scorer while the other is a 2nd liner.

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03-30-2013, 12:41 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
An amputee can hold onto the puck longer than Gaborik.
I'm surprised he manages to hold it for the half second it takes him to shoot

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03-30-2013, 12:47 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
See, I disagree on the grounds that I actually like the defensive shot-blocking system. I hope that Gaborik suddenly clicks on the left wing, or Nash decides to try left side again. We all know that Cally is going to be here longer than Gaborik will because of their comparative contracts, roles, ages, and production levels. I want to keep Gaborik, but I think he's going to be traded before his contract is up, or let go.
I will agree that moving Gaborik is the most likely to happen, but I don't think it'll be the right move.

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03-30-2013, 12:49 AM
  #104
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I would like to give Gaborik another try without Mao Zedong behind the bench.

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03-30-2013, 12:56 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
The Nash trade is a no-brainer, if you perform the follow-up moves correctly. He's a clear upgrade on Gaborik, which then allows you to flip Gaborik for a productive centerman, which is something this team desperately needs.
No sane team is going to flip a productive center for Gaborik. Productive centerman are rarely available for trade. The Rangers sure did a good job of trading a productive center in the Nash trade though.

I am probably the only one who still thinks the Nash trade was a bad one and I still stand by it.

If we were moving those high end assets, I wish we did it for a center or RHD. Not another RWer.

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03-30-2013, 01:01 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Let's see...

Hank, Nash, McD, Staal, Cally, Stepan.

These days you could make an argument for swapping Stepan and Cally due to Stepan's improved play, position, and the decline of Richards.


So yeah, 5th sounds about right. That's still huge.



But we have Kershaw admitting that Callahan is an above average 2nd liner. Saved for evidence.
Hank
Nash
McDonagh
Stepan
Staal
Girardi
Callahan

When everyone is on their game? (taking into account of peak play last season)

Hank
Nash
Gaborik
Richards
McDonagh
Stepan
Staal
Girardi
Callahan

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03-30-2013, 01:04 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Hank
Nash
McDonagh
Stepan
Staal
Girardi
Callahan

When everyone is on their game? (taking into account of peak play last season)

Hank
Nash
Gaborik
Richards
McDonagh
Stepan
Staal
Girardi
Callahan
I wouldn't put Girardi anywhere near this list, but for the sake of not derailing the thread I better not get started on Girardi.

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03-30-2013, 01:10 AM
  #108
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I don't think it's accurate to compare the importance or impact of forwards, Dmen, and Goalies. Everyone knows goaltending is the most important position, and Defensemen play twice as much as forwards on average, so naturally their play is more significant. A 1st pairing D man is more important than a 2nd line winger. We have 3 top pairing caliber defensemen, and play a defense focused system.

Then you have an arguement over which is more important between centers and wingers, and while i'm not fond of it, Centers tend to be the winner of that argument.

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03-30-2013, 01:11 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Gaborik isn't a puck possession player. Callahan is. Gaborik is a counter-attack, finisher type player. He's not going to be the one with the puck on his stick in the offesnive zone, though, and that's why people are saying he "doesn't create offense". Nash can create offense. Callahan is better at creating offense, because he's a nightmare on the forecheck and can hold onto the puck far longer than Gaborik can.
I don't feel confident when Callahan has the puck. I don't think he is a great puck possession player. He is very good on the forecheck, but he doesn't handle onto the puck enough for me to define him as a puck possession player. He always has the patented to look cross seam pass in the slot which always gets intercepted whenever he is facing pressure. If you want to get deep into the statistics, Gaborik has a higher corsi rating every single year as a Ranger compared to Callahan.

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03-30-2013, 01:31 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
He is a good role player and decent 2-way 2nd line player. However he isn't an elite level by any stretch and is quite a notch below the elite defensive players in the game. (Backes, Kesler, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Hossa, etc)
Those are pretty much the only guys that are markedly better than Callahan away from the puck. I'm not even sure Backes is, he's just bigger and stronger. Cally is a stronger defensive player.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
He is an above average 2nd line player. It just irks me when people say he is the 'most important player' on the team. He is maybe 5th-6th in terms of importance.
He's not the most important, he's just the hardest working, smartest, most efficient player most of the time. He's not a high skill player, he can't be the most important player on your team. What he is, though, is an incredibly useful player and having a guy like him is extremely advantageous, because there aren't many around.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
No sane team is going to flip a productive center for Gaborik. Productive centerman are rarely available for trade. The Rangers sure did a good job of trading a productive center in the Nash trade though.

I am probably the only one who still thinks the Nash trade was a bad one and I still stand by it.

If we were moving those high end assets, I wish we did it for a center or RHD. Not another RWer.
I actually think the Nash trade was a mistake, and did at the time, but it is probably the least aggravating mistake they've made, and the reason is that Nash is pretty good, even if his contract stinks, and the price they paid really wasn't that high. We didn't move many high end assets at all. The pick shouldn't have been high, but it might be relatively high as a result of typical mismanagement.

The assets given up were more than reasonable, especially when you consider that Nash's cap hit is egregious. The problem is those assets weren't properly replaced, or they were given away with no ability to get proper replacements. And proper replacements for Brandon Dubinsky and Artem Anisimov are not impossible to find. I like Artie a lot, and I have some fond memories of Dubi as well, but they are inconsistent role players.
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I guess this is fair. But his ES production has been pretty brutal this year. He is a glorified special teams player.
EXACTLY! That's the whole point! In this league, all of the top teams in the league are among the best power play or penalty killing teams, and some are both. In recently completed 82-game seasons, it was even more evident.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Yeah, it should be pretty obvious. One is a high end 1st line scorer while the other is a 2nd liner.
How so?

At this point in his career, Gaborik is a one-dimensional player that needs help. He got it last season. He's not getting it this season. He's also inconsistent.

Callahan is a terrific second liner. He was 24th in points among RWs last year, and 2/3 of those who finished above him are legit first line or all-star caliber skill players (MSL, Kane, Gaborik, Hossa, Kovalchuk, Iginla, etc.). In 2010-11, he was 16th among RWs in PPG. He was 31st in points among RWs despite missing 22 games due to injury. He's one of the best 2nd liners in the league.

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03-30-2013, 01:48 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I don't feel confident when Callahan has the puck. I don't think he is a great puck possession player. He is very good on the forecheck, but he doesn't handle onto the puck enough for me to define him as a puck possession player. He always has the patented to look cross seam pass in the slot which always gets intercepted whenever he is facing pressure. If you want to get deep into the statistics, Gaborik has a higher corsi rating every single year as a Ranger compared to Callahan.
Doesn't seem like you went very deep into the statistics at all.

First off, Gaborik is supposed to have a higher Corsi rating. Corsi is about shots, and it makes sense that the team shoots more when Gaborik is on the ice. His entire job is to shoot! That's his whole game!

It also makes sense that the team shoots more when Gaborik is on the ice than when Callahan is on the ice when you consider that Callahan had the highest Corsi Rel QoC rating among all Ranger forwards last year. Gaborik was 8th on the list.

Gaborik also led the team by a healthy amount in offensive zone start %.

Callahan routinely plays the hardest minutes against the best players. Gaborik is sheltered more than any other player on the team.

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03-30-2013, 10:44 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Those are pretty much the only guys that are markedly better than Callahan away from the puck. I'm not even sure Backes is, he's just bigger and stronger. Cally is a stronger defensive player.
Wow completely disagree. Backes being bigger and stronger is a big reason why he's one of the best, if not the best defensive player in the league. He manhandles players on the boards and uses his size to effectively take away pucks. He is one of the few players in the NHL over 6"3' that play way above their height frame. Callahan away from the puck is only good at shotblocking and forechecking. He's not an elite takeaway machine imo.

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He's not the most important, he's just the hardest working, smartest, most efficient player most of the time. He's not a high skill player, he can't be the most important player on your team. What he is, though, is an incredibly useful player and having a guy like him is extremely advantageous, because there aren't many around.
'Working hard' is one of the most biased attributes in all of sports, not just hockey. I don't think Ryan Callahan works harder than say a Dan Girardi. Humans are terribly biased and have selective memories. As a Ranger fan myself, of course Callahan works hard but he has been prone to being lazy at times this season. This however is rarely noticed because as mentioned before, we're biased.

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I actually think the Nash trade was a mistake, and did at the time, but it is probably the least aggravating mistake they've made, and the reason is that Nash is pretty good, even if his contract stinks, and the price they paid really wasn't that high. We didn't move many high end assets at all. The pick shouldn't have been high, but it might be relatively high as a result of typical mismanagement.
The Rangers gave away two high end assets in the trade. Tim Erixon and Artem Anisimov. Erixon pretty much destroyed the AHL during the lockout and is Columbus's consistent two-way #6 defenseman. He has top pairing upside easily and has made huge strides to become a NHL defender this season. The knock on him was strength, but he's bulked up this season and has been using his size in the few CBJ games I watched. AA is CBJ go-to forward. A former high end prospect who is finally being given the chance to take the reigns on an offense.

Quote:
The assets given up were more than reasonable, especially when you consider that Nash's cap hit is egregious. The problem is those assets weren't properly replaced, or they were given away with no ability to get proper replacements. And proper replacements for Brandon Dubinsky and Artem Anisimov are not impossible to find. I like Artie a lot, and I have some fond memories of Dubi as well, but they are inconsistent role players.
Despite their inconsistencies, they were great hockey players that fit the system to a T. Rick Nash isn't a player you demolish your depth for, especially since he's one of the most overpaid players in the NHL.

AA and Dubinsky aren't as easily replaceable as you think. They were only '3rd liners' here because of the depth we had, but they're pretty much top 6 guys on the majority of teams in the NHL, especially due to their versatility to play LW and C. Rarely are guys like those available. The Rangers destroyed what made them good last year, depth from home grown talent.

The Rangers, in reality gave up 4 players who are equivalent to 4 first round picks. Except, they're more polished and developed.

In my opinion, that type of value should only be given up for elite centers, elite defensemen or young superstar quality wingers with a bargain ELC contract.

Quote:
EXACTLY! That's the whole point! In this league, all of the top teams in the league are among the best power play or penalty killing teams, and some are both. In recently completed 82-game seasons, it was even more evident.
Personally, as a team captain, I wish the player was better out there 5on5, where majority of the game is played. This will limit Callahan from being regarded as one of the best wingers in the league. I should see no excuses why he can't do much 5on5 when a guy like Hagelin has already eclipsed his career high in ES points.

Quote:
How so?

At this point in his career, Gaborik is a one-dimensional player that needs help. He got it last season. He's not getting it this season. He's also inconsistent.
What help did Gaborik exactly have last year? Stepan and AA were his most common linemates 5on5. Callahan's most common linemates were Richards and Dubinsky. He had 2 2nd line players as his linemates the majority of the year and was by far the team's best forward. He's also produced with Prospal and Christensen, he hasn't had favorable linemates for the majority of his career.

Quote:
Callahan is a terrific second liner. He was 24th in points among RWs last year, and 2/3 of those who finished above him are legit first line or all-star caliber skill players (MSL, Kane, Gaborik, Hossa, Kovalchuk, Iginla, etc.). In 2010-11, he was 16th among RWs in PPG. He was 31st in points among RWs despite missing 22 games due to injury. He's one of the best 2nd liners in the league.
No question. But he's still a 2RW guy with 2RW production. I'll take the first liner any day of the week.

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03-30-2013, 10:54 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Doesn't seem like you went very deep into the statistics at all.

First off, Gaborik is supposed to have a higher Corsi rating. Corsi is about shots, and it makes sense that the team shoots more when Gaborik is on the ice. His entire job is to shoot! That's his whole game!

It also makes sense that the team shoots more when Gaborik is on the ice than when Callahan is on the ice when you consider that Callahan had the highest Corsi Rel QoC rating among all Ranger forwards last year. Gaborik was 8th on the list.

Gaborik also led the team by a healthy amount in offensive zone start %.

Callahan routinely plays the hardest minutes against the best players. Gaborik is sheltered more than any other player on the team.
There really is no question, Gaborik is a very flawed player. Puck possession isn't his game. But he still did a magnificent job at finishing most of his chances. It also makes sense that his Corsi Rel QOC was relatively low compared to Callahan because he didn't have the 2nd best defense pairing in the league on the ice with him for the majority of his shifts compared to Callahan. I feel those two were more instrumental to the superior puck possession game.

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03-30-2013, 02:28 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Callahan IMO is a major part of the problem. A loser mentality is fit across the team and Callahan leads the way. He's won nothing in his career, yet he gets heralded as if he's Adam Graves. He hasn't produced in the playoffs, yet young guys like Stepan and MDZ were blamed for the Rangers exit last year. The biggest problem for me is that he is a guy who perfectly fits this system: shotblocking, grenade puck-handling hockey. There is no way in hell he should be playing those many minutes, he's simply not good enough relative to the other star forwards who receive that similar ice time. When the Callahan era is over, fans will hopefully witness exciting hockey for once. Leading by example, block all the shots!
This is so dumb. Callahan has a role that every hockey club needs to fill and he fills it. You're complaining he doesn't fill Gabs or 50 G scoring Graves. Thats just stupid, period. He's only won how many games in his career and been a vital part in helping to win those? Yea those are unimportant. Leading a team to a 1 seed shows no ability to ever win and doesn't count as winning. Ieven forgot about the damn silver medal. I'm sure you can conveniently brush off every accompishment to serve your own unbelievably wrong opinion. God*&^@ just a stupid stupid opinion here. Freakin embarassing to read. For some reason you are blaming Callahan for Richards (A suppossed captain himself) and Gabs failures

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03-30-2013, 03:38 PM
  #115
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This is so dumb. Callahan has a role that every hockey club needs to fill and he fills it. You're complaining he doesn't fill Gabs or 50 G scoring Graves. Thats just stupid, period. He's only won how many games in his career and been a vital part in helping to win those? Yea those are unimportant. Leading a team to a 1 seed shows no ability to ever win and doesn't count as winning. Ieven forgot about the damn silver medal. I'm sure you can conveniently brush off every accompishment to serve your own unbelievably wrong opinion. God*&^@ just a stupid stupid opinion here. Freakin embarassing to read. For some reason you are blaming Callahan for Richards (A suppossed captain himself) and Gabs failures
Yes Callahan was the reason our team was #1 in the East last yr, not some Lundqvist guy who won the Vezina, or McDonagh who played 25mins a night against top players or Girardi who was top 10 in Norris voting or Gaborik who was 3rd in the league in goal scoring. Nope, Callahan is the guy who wins games for us clearly.

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03-30-2013, 04:37 PM
  #116
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Did you guys hear? He's better than Kunitz

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03-30-2013, 04:42 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
This is so dumb. Callahan has a role that every hockey club needs to fill and he fills it. You're complaining he doesn't fill Gabs or 50 G scoring Graves. Thats just stupid, period. He's only won how many games in his career and been a vital part in helping to win those? Yea those are unimportant. Leading a team to a 1 seed shows no ability to ever win and doesn't count as winning. Ieven forgot about the damn silver medal. I'm sure you can conveniently brush off every accompishment to serve your own unbelievably wrong opinion. God*&^@ just a stupid stupid opinion here. Freakin embarassing to read. For some reason you are blaming Callahan for Richards (A suppossed captain himself) and Gabs failures
Callahan did not lead the team to the 1 seed. He was of course an important part but he was nowhere near the most important reason to the team doing so well. That would have a lot more to do with Lundqvist, McDonagh, Gaborik and Richards. I'd probably slot him in just after those guys in a similar spot as Girardi and above Del Zotto.

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03-30-2013, 04:46 PM
  #118
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While everyone disagrees with him, I still have to give credit to Kersh for taking on the world, maintaining his stance on Callahan's importance to the team while admitting that he's an above average 2nd liner.

Callahan is a role player. Every player is a role player. Callahan's role may not be as important as Gaborik, Richards, Nash's, McD, Staal, or Hank's, but it's the manner in which he fills that role and goes above and beyond what it calls for. There are very few players you can count on to excel in every aspect of the game. Offense, Defense, Special teams, forechecking. Hell, Cally isn't much of a fighter, but he's dropped the mitts and defended his teammate when the time called for it.

In my opinion, that makes him a special player. I don't think our entire team needs to play his style, but I'd hope that they all look at his effort and feel embarrassed if they gave anything less

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03-30-2013, 04:50 PM
  #119
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I would agree that he is one of the top role players in the league. But almost by definition that means he is not as good as any of the first line players. But, for the type of player he is, he is among the best and you really can't ask for more than that. To compare him to players who are/have been top 5 goal scorers in the league really is not fair for him.

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03-31-2013, 05:09 AM
  #120
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Positive things about Gaborik

Speed
Wristshot
Really good goalscorer


Negative things about Gaborik:


Inconsistent

Sucks at puck control, can't deke to save his life. Seriously he's probably the worst 1st liner in the league when it comes to carrying the puck into the offensive zone.

Mood player, seems like he loses his confidence quick when he hits a bit of a struggle

5-hole. He ALWAYS tries to go five-hole on breakaways and especially shootouts. It pisses me off, so easy to read him and it rarely works. For ****s sake, get some imagination Gabby...

Sucks at PP. Useless out there.





Positive things about Callahan:


Leader on the ice
Money on the PP, well he's a legendary PP performer compared to how the other players on this team plays when we have a PP .

Good fore and backchecker


Great when it comes to killing penalties.

Great in using his body (hitting, shotblocking)



Negative things about Callahan:

Does blind passed too much sometimes

Doesn't score as often in the playoffs



Having trouble coming up with more examples. Anyways I rather have Nash on the 1st line and Callahan on the 2nd than have Gaborik and Nash on the team (working on the premiss if we had to trade one of Cally/Gabby). 'Cause Callahan shows up every nighy, Gabby? Not even close.

Nash has overtaken Gabby's position and Nash is creating havoc on the opponents even when he isn't scoring. I rather have that than Casper the ghost.


Last edited by CaptainCally: 03-31-2013 at 05:15 AM.
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03-31-2013, 05:34 AM
  #121
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Honestly, I don't think there's much validity to the "Isn't good in the playoffs" argument. Cally's seen the playoffs 4 times, and the first was his rookie year in the league, where he contributed 2 goals and an assist in 10 games. Not bad for a 4th round pick rookie. (He had only played 14 games with the team before the playoffs)

In his next playoff appearence he posted 2 goals and 2 assists in 10 as a 3rd liner.

Cally put up 6 goals, 10 points total over 20 games in this past playoffs. That's below his regular season pace, but the entire team struggled to create offense last year's playoffs. Despite our ECF finish, we were still only a .500 team.

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03-31-2013, 11:03 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCally View Post
Positive things about Gaborik

Speed
Wristshot
Really good goalscorer


Negative things about Gaborik:


Inconsistent

Sucks at puck control, can't deke to save his life. Seriously he's probably the worst 1st liner in the league when it comes to carrying the puck into the offensive zone.

Mood player, seems like he loses his confidence quick when he hits a bit of a struggle

5-hole. He ALWAYS tries to go five-hole on breakaways and especially shootouts. It pisses me off, so easy to read him and it rarely works. For ****s sake, get some imagination Gabby...

Sucks at PP. Useless out there.





Positive things about Callahan:


Leader on the ice
Money on the PP, well he's a legendary PP performer compared to how the other players on this team plays when we have a PP .

Good fore and backchecker


Great when it comes to killing penalties.

Great in using his body (hitting, shotblocking)



Negative things about Callahan:

Does blind passed too much sometimes

Doesn't score as often in the playoffs



Having trouble coming up with more examples. Anyways I rather have Nash on the 1st line and Callahan on the 2nd than have Gaborik and Nash on the team (working on the premiss if we had to trade one of Cally/Gabby). 'Cause Callahan shows up every nighy, Gabby? Not even close.

Nash has overtaken Gabby's position and Nash is creating havoc on the opponents even when he isn't scoring. I rather have that than Casper the ghost.
Gaborik's had a longer track record of success and has always been the superior player. I do not trust Callahan's ability to play at a high level in his 30's, his body just takes too much abuse with the shot blocking and grinding. Look at how Dan Cleary looks at the age of 32. He was a beast and great defensive player, like Callahan, constantly making plays like these when he was 27:

http://youtu.be/V_4AXq3NlDE?t=1m16s

Beast on the forecheck, great defensively and a player who did everything to give the team momentum.

Our very own Chris Drury is also a prime example of a guy who wore down due to playing style. He is one of the best players from USA and a winner at pretty much every level. That being said, it was a mistake to sign a guy who was wearing down.

When I see Callahan play this season, I don't see as much hustle as when he played from pre 2010-11. This is why I feel the team should move him, but it'll obviously never happen.

Also note how Cleary was a 3rd line player for that stacked Red Wings team. Franzen and Samuelsson were two skilled players in the top 6.

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04-01-2013, 08:35 PM
  #123
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Callahan was phenomenal tonight--and that would be true even if he had zero points. THIS is the player we've seen the last couple of years. Case in point, UP by two goals late in the 3rd, Callahan was flying in the Winnipeg zone trying to win the puck. Hopefully he keeps this level of play/energy up for the remainder of the season (as he has in previous years). Other players (Richards in particular) seemed to respond to Cally's energy.

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04-01-2013, 09:50 PM
  #124
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So...Callahan goes back to playing with Stepan and Nash, and all of a sudden, no problem scoring. Hmmm...seems like someone made the case recently that whenever he played with the only guys producing this year, he produced just fine. Wonder who was making that point...

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04-01-2013, 10:02 PM
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Bob Richards
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Loser mentality that Callahan.

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